Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder didn't die there my friend, you talk good but you obviously don't read the whole comic, research your archives then debate, LOL also.This incident took place when Beyonder and Molecule Man fought, Molecule Man who was only second to Beyonder could recreate the multiverse, sorry if you can't understand that but it seems when you see that others are as powerful or more powerful than your beloved Phoenix you search for logic and philosophy around the fact to dispute it, but don't worry it will be all proven here and now once and for all.
I read the comic just fine. The Beyonder was reduced to energy, the Beyonder character died and made a new universe as stated on panel. Your opinion is irrelevant in light of that. Quite ironic that you would throw accusations regarding poor logic around when all of yours has apparrently gone out the window.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Just by you saying Beyonder died there proves to me you talk more than you know, but you do explain well, but I think you better stick to explaining Phoenix, otherwise read and study Beyonder appearances thoroughly and then com back, and by the way I hope I'm not being offensive, this is a debate.
Beyonder as we know him died. He was reduced to a state of primal unbeing and his energies became the basis for a new universe outside of 616. The Beyonder died:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8810514030.jpg&s=x11
It seems im not the only one who thinks so 😉
Youre excused.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok soon into the fight between CB and MM he ofcourse defeated him, he then said your all history and"The Beyonder's death stroke rends the earth, and space, utterly destroying everything in it's path, all the way to the ends of infinity", this is the narrator talking so it's a fact.
Let's observe this quickly:
Rend: Definition from websters: tear (something) into two or more pieces
So he tears earth and space into pieces.Utterly: Definition from websters: complete; absolute
So he completely destroys everything to the ends of infinity,
didn't know infinity ended in 616, LOL.
Was the Earth torn in two or did Beyonders attack just tear a chasm in the Colorado mountain range? 😕
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8807575988.jpg&s=x11
The blast was not all consuming, it was a directional beam with a trajectory that lead from Earth into space. The caption said it destroyed everything in its path, not that it destroyed everything. Do you see the difference Mr M? The blast was not omni directional i.e, it didnt eminate in waves, it was a beam of energy. It only destroyed everything in the path of its trajectory.
Saying the beam of energy stretched off to the ends of infinity does not tell you whether it travelled to the end of the universe or the ends of the multiverse. It is open to interpretation. There are differing levels of infinity. Your interpretation isnt conclusively verified so dont be so arrogant as to treat it as fact. For all we know the caption is referring to the abstract Infinity. The line is ambiguous.
Originally posted by Mr Master
In your other post you asked why are there still comics or whatever if he did destory everything,
simple, because MM had enough power left over to shelter all living things in it's death path, as you yourself posted the scan, how is this possible?
Because MM was more powerful than all the multiverse's characters, yes including LT, Abstracts and whoever else and his control over molecules spans across the multiverse aswell, so he can disintegrate anything or recreate anything across the multiverse.
Im not doubting that Molecule Man prior to the retcon had the power to achieve such a task however as it wasnt stated or shown anywhere on panel or in bios that he did do so you cant assume that he did. Dont you dare talk to me about logic again 😂
Originally posted by Mr Master
And this is proof that Beyonder could have destroyed the multiverse, when the Watchers gathered and unanimously agreed to interfere, because they wheere certain that the multiverse was on the verge of destruction by the Beyonder:
Noones doubting that he could've have destroyed the multiverse. He was very powerful. What i am disputing is that he DID destroy the multiverse. Given that after the beam the Earth is still intact, the fact that it was a directional beam of energy that was stated to just destroy everything in its path and given that nowhere is it stated that Molecule Man fixed the multiverse it is quite apparrent that you are extrapolation and your argument is primarily speculation. You have nothing to go on. 😉
Originally posted by Mr Master
Now your extrapolating(nice word)or simply making stuff up,
he never said it on a variety of occasions, he said it ONCE, in Uncanny X-Men 203, I have every comic of Beyonder's aswell, it's the only time he says it,
and he says she has the potential to be LIKE him,(what that means is open to debate), never he says or the narrator says to be his equal in power, you threw that in of your own accord.Don't make stuff up!, to give Phoenix a higher status.
No he said in Uncanny x-men 196 that Rcahel is the one most like him out of all the beings he's encountered and thats Rachel, the host. Jean Grey is on a whole different level completely as stated on panel.
Then in Uncanny x-men 203 he dismisses all sentient beings as amoeba save for Rachel the starsoul. I have posted both scenes, the matter is not up for debate in light of that. Sorry mate. 😉
Originally posted by Mr Master
I think I already answered this one, Molecule Man fixed it, jeez you post the scan and don't even read it, LOLOLOL
actually he sheltered everyone from the destruction, he then goes on to say he has every living thing is stasis in sub-space, and will bring them back later.
And that's how our beloved heroes are still around, not because of TOAA or Phoenix Force or Living Tribunal, because of the Molecule Man who was no joke in those days.
It says he moved every living thing out of the path of the beam. You are still making assumptions about the range of the beam and the amount of destruction caused. Nowhere is it stated that it destroyed the multiverse and nowhere is it stated that Mol Man fixed the destruction. If Mol man moved every living thing out of the way then that means that the beam didnt actually destroy anything. 😱
Originally posted by Mr Master
Here Beyonder scans the entire multiverse simultaneously.
Even Photon can do that. Eternity and the abstracts showed in the scene where Beyonder killed Death that they were attuned to the multiverse. Thats not an impressive feat. That shows his cosmic awareness which many cosmic characters.
[QUOTE=6253818]Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]I read the comic just fine. The Beyonder was reduced to energy, the Beyonder character died and made a new universe as stated on panel. Your opinion is irrelevant in light of that. Quite ironic that you would throw accusations regarding poor logic around when all of yours has apparrently gone out the window.
Beyonder as we know him died. He was reduced to a state of primal unbeing and his energies became the basis for a new universe outside of 616. The Beyonder died:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8810514030.jpg&s=x11
It seems im not the only one who thinks so 😉
Youre excused.
Galactic Storm are you ok, or are you just being obtuse?
He DID NOT DIE when that specific incident occurred, what's wrong with you,
He died later on in that issue, when he transformed himself into a baby and Molecule Man killed him!
And it just wasn't some new universe either it was the beyond-realm, which he emcompassed, and the beyond-realm is everything outside the multiverse, beyond space and time.
Proof:
[QUOTE=6253818]Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The blast was not all consuming, it was a directional beam with a trajectory that lead from Earth into space. The caption said it destroyed everything in its path, not that it destroyed everything. Do you see the difference Mr M? The blast was not omni directional i.e, it didnt eminate in waves, it was a beam of energy. It only destroyed everything in the path of its trajectory.
Saying the beam of energy stretched off to the ends of infinity does not tell you whether it travelled to the end of the universe or the ends of the multiverse. It is open to interpretation. There are differing levels of infinity. Your interpretation isnt conclusively verified so dont be so arrogant as to treat it as fact. For all we know the caption is referring to the abstract Infinity. The line is ambiguous.
This makes sense, finally.
But it still reached the ends of infinity, and your right we'll never know whether it was the universal concept of infinity or the multiversal, but since I have proven he definately could of destroyed the multiverse, what difference does it make, it should still be excepted as a capacity of his.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not doubting that Molecule Man prior to the retcon had the power to achieve such a task however as it wasnt stated or shown anywhere on panel or in bios that he did do so you cant assume that he did. Dont you dare talk to me about logic again 😂Noones doubting that he could've have destroyed the multiverse. He was very powerful. What i am disputing is that he DID destroy the multiverse. Given that after the beam the Earth is still intact, the fact that it was a directional beam of energy that was stated to just destroy everything in its path and given that nowhere is it stated that Molecule Man fixed the multiverse it is quite apparrent that you are extrapolation and your argument is primarily speculation. You have nothing to go on. 😉 [/B]
Ok so now your wrong again, I posted it a short time ago, or do you only indulge in your own posts, but here it is again:
Beyonder causing destruction across the multiverse,
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No he said in Uncanny x-men 196 that Rcahel is the one most like him out of all the beings he's encountered and thats Rachel, the host. Jean Grey is on a whole different level completely as stated on panel.Then in Uncanny x-men 203 he dismisses all sentient beings as amoeba save for Rachel the starsoul. I have posted both scenes, the matter is not up for debate in light of that. Sorry mate. 😉
Being like him does not mean being his equal or greater in power, you'll see it that way because you love Phoenix but that's open to debate aswell, and by the way the only reason he fell down after receiving that feed back from Rachel was because he felt all the experiences and turmoils of every living thing in the universe, not because he got more power back or because it was to much for him to handle, he was taken off guard by sufferings and lifelong experiences of so many, this is why Storm says:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It says he moved every living thing out of the path of the beam. You are still making assumptions about the range of the beam and the amount of destruction caused. Nowhere is it stated that it destroyed the multiverse and nowhere is it stated that Mol Man fixed the destruction. If Mol man moved every living thing out of the way then that means that the beam didnt actually destroy anything. 😱
It is clearly stated on panel that he shielded them from the death blast's path, and that he REMOVED not moved, every living thing, and that they're in Stasis, in sub-space, he also says, " I'll bring em' back later, if there is a later".
Let's understand that now,
Remove: From Webster's dictionary:
take away (something unwanted or unnecessary) from the position it occupies.
Move: From Webster's dictionary:
go in a specified direction or manner.
There's obviously a difference, when you Remove something you take it away, when you just Move something you change it's specific direction, like moving something from left to right.
Stasis: From Webster's dictionary:
a period or state of inactivity or equilibrium
Sub-Space: From Webster's dictionary:
a space that is wholly contained in another space, or whose points or elements are all in another space.
Wonder how All Living Things eneded up in Sub-Space if he only moved them out of the way, LOL!
Bottom line,
your the one who's full to the T with assumptions, and you twist facts so they cater to your opinions, but if anyone is reading and seeing this, they'll know I speak truth and facts.
And there's the famous scan, please read it carefully, so I don't think your being obtuse.
Originally posted by Jesse7
MM I like you ^_^
Your gonna like this even more,
the question is how powerful was the Beyonder exactly?
Phoenix became one with the Matrix of the M'Kraan's energy field, enabling her to seal the breach, she didn't do this with her power alone, she had too become one with the Matrix, but I'm flexible, so I'll give it to her anyway.
And in the second incident where she "saves the multiverse" the rest of the X-Men help by becoming one with the lattice pattern surrounding the N-galaxy, again, she doesn't do it with her power alone, but I'll even give her that one too.
But what I'm about to show you is the Beyonder's power on panel being gauged,
without any help or add ons,
How powerful was Beyonder once and for all?
Not just more powerful than all the power in the marvel multiverse combined,
not just several times more powerful than all the power in the marvel multiverse combined,
not just hundreds of times more powerful than all the power in the marvel multiverse combined,
not even just one million times more powerful than all the power in the marvel multi verse combined,
but MILLIONS of TIMES MORE POWERFUL than ALL the Power in the Marvel Multiverse Combined: ahhhhhhh!!!!
Ofcourse proof:
Originally posted by Mr Master
Your gonna like this even more,the question is how powerful was the Beyonder exactly?
Phoenix became one with the Matrix of the M'Kraan's energy field, enabling her to seal the breach, she didn't do this with her power alone, she had too become one with the Matrix, but I'm flexible, so I'll give it to her anyway.
And in the second incident where she "saves the multiverse" the rest of the X-Men help by becoming one with the lattice pattern surrounding the N-galaxy, again, she doesn't do it with her power alone, but I'll even give her that one too.
But what I'm about to show you is the Beyonder's power on panel being gauged,
without any help or add ons,How powerful was Beyonder once and for all?
Not just more powerful than all the power in the marvel multiverse combined,
not just several times more powerful than all the power in the marvel multiverse combined,
not just hundreds of times more powerful than all the power in the marvel multiverse combined,
not even just one million times more powerful than all the power in the marvel multi verse combined,
but MILLIONS of TIMES MORE POWERFUL than ALL the Power in the Marvel Multiverse Combined: ahhhhhhh!!!!
Ofcourse proof:
TOAA, eat your heart out...
Who in the history of comics has had that claim certified about them?
Being Millions of Times More Powerful than All the Power in the Marvel Multiverse Combined?
No one, except for Classic Beyonder.
This means it would take
Millions of Living Tribunals
Millions of Multiversal Abstracts
Millions of Phoenixes
Millions of Celestials
Millions of Galactuses
Millions of every hero and villian
to match Classic Beyonder's power.
Originally posted by bean_machine
Wow that is powerful. I have always liked the Beyonder but that is crazy. Crazy powerful I tell you.
Tell me about it,
I always new he was rediculously powerful, but I researched the character thoroughly not too long ago and came across this unbelievable fact,
but there were members here claiming Beyonder was merely galactic or universal scale, I knew that was wrong and was determined to get the facts straight.
I also discovered that he emcompassed everything outside the Marvel Multiverse,
in other words, he was everything beyond the multiverse, that can barely be understood, even as I write it, the magnitude, the vastness,
he definately was the most powerful character Marvel ever made, which is also why they had to get rid of him and then retcon him, he was just to much.
Originally posted by Mr MasterGalactic Storm are you ok, or are you just being obtuse?
He DID NOT DIE when that specific incident occurred, what's wrong with you,He died later on in that issue, when he transformed himself into a baby and Molecule Man killed him!
Irrelevant. The point i was making was that the Beyonder as we knew him died in the end.
Originally posted by Mr Master
And it just wasn't some new universe either it was the beyond-realm, which he emcompassed, and the beyond-realm is everything outside the multiverse, beyond space and time.
Proof:
The Beyond Realm is NOT everything that lies beyond the multiverse, it is an other dimensional universe that the Pre retcon Beyonder encompassed. Big difference. He was everything from the Beyond Realm NOT everything from beyond the multiverse.:
http://www.marveldirectory.com/otherdimensions/beyond.htm
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=4/9408365978.jpg&s=x10
Lets not get too excited now. 😉
Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok so now your wrong again, I posted it a short time ago, or do you only indulge in your own posts, but here it is again:Beyonder causing destruction across the multiverse,
This is a previous instance of him causing destruction across the multiverse, it is not the one you presented as proof of him actually destroying the entire multiverse, the one i disputed. So dont try and present it as such.
Either way it is clear that Beyonder has the capacity for multiversal feats, however the scene you initially presented wasnt sufficient proof of this.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Being like him does not mean being his equal or greater in power, you'll see it that way because you love Phoenix but that's open to debate aswell, and by the way the only reason he fell down after receiving that feed back from Rachel was because he felt all the experiences and turmoils of every living thing in the universe, not because he got more power back or because it was to much for him to handle, he was taken off guard by sufferings and lifelong experiences of so many, this is why Storm says:
In Uncanny x-men 196 Beyonder comments on Rachels extraordinary power level and comments on her being new to her power, he then says of all the entities hes encountered she is the being most like him and that she seems unaware of how powerful she truly is. Given that the focus of his comments were solely power related it is quite obvious that he was saying potentially she is the closest to him power wise, that is quite obvious.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8807094078.jpg&s=x11
In line with those comments he later says in Uncanny X-men 203 that except for Rachel all living beings he's encountered are less than amoeba to him.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/880715469.jpg&s=x11
Out of all beings Rachel was closest to him in power and yet she was only the limited Phoenix. During her time as a host she never had full access to the Force, the power was always rationed out to her at levels she could handle. Jean the White Crown Phoenix is a whole different level.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8807184060.jpg&s=x11
As for the scene where Beyonder reclaimed his power, the point was that what Rachel represents, what shes connected with, is something so great that when Beyonder got an insight into it it was too much for his consciousness to bear and he was humbled:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8807194683.jpg&s=x11
This scene verifies Beyonders own comments about Rachels potential and her being the power closest to his own. What that says about Jean who literally is the Force i'll leave for you to contemplate.
