Sadow, Kresh, Exar and Revan vs NJO Luke and Marka Ragnos

The leader of the Order? I used to think so, but the fact that he was on the hidden Dantooine Academy makes me doubt that now. A powerful master, yes, but the grandmaster, unproven.

Glentract, there was no academy on Dantooine during The Sith War. It was Vodo's chosen planet to train his students, that is all. The Jedi planet was Ossus.

There's a chance that he didn't want to kill Kun at all. Perhaps that was why he used a staff rather then a lightsaber.

Of course he didn't want to kill Kun at that point, Kun hadn't gone to the dark side. 😮

Perhaps Vodo didn't have a lightsaber with him. Was their one clipped on his belt or anything? So no, it doesn't necessarily mean he is a master of lightsaber combat, he could be a fool for not realizing how much more powerful Exar had gotten since his previous fight with him.

Or it could be merely the fact that Vodo's skill with a staff (and his ability to make it more powerful than a lightsaber) would suit him better than an actual lightsaber. It proves that Vodo was confident in his ability, which must be considerable since Vodo knew Kun to be a greater threat than Ulic despite the fact that Ulic was more visible.

How is Vodo shattering a rock with his staff a sign of it being stronger then a lightsaber? I, a martial artist with a little less then 3 years under my belt can shatter rocks with my jongbong(Taekwondo name for a bo staff).

Forgive me if I find it hard to believe that you can shatter large rocks with an already-broken staff wrapped together in cloth.

What about Emerald Lightning?

You mean the stuff that only stunned a slayer so that Jacen could hack at it?

You sit there and say exar kun is uber, but I can make the exact same arguments for Luke.

Except... you haven't offered up logic or evidence.

What did Exar Kun do that was more impressive than Luke?

Feat wars? Logical fallacy.

But see previous scans for evidence.

Are you going to say I can't use the argument that he's the son of Anakin either?

How is this relevant?

I believe Exar Kun and DE Sidious to be equal, and Luke defeated DE Sidious, while still not at his fullest potential.

You can believe that, but it sure as hell isn't true. Kun curbstomps DE Sidious, so your A>B>C argument falls apart even by its ridiculous standards.

Once again, tell me what Kun did that Luke couldn't do? Besides fail at the end

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract, there was no academy on Dantooine during The Sith War. It was Vodo's chosen planet to train his students, that is all. The Jedi planet was Ossus.

That's my point. Why wasn't he at the Jedi capital? That's where the Grandmaster should be. Is there any evidence that he was actually the Grandmaster?

Originally posted by IKC
Of course he didn't want to kill Kun at that point, Kun hadn't gone to the dark side. 😮

That makes Exar's victory over him a lot less impressive.

Originally posted by IKC
Or it could be merely the fact that Vodo's skill with a staff (and his ability to make it more powerful than a lightsaber) would suit him better than an actual lightsaber. It proves that Vodo was confident in his ability, which must be considerable since Vodo knew Kun to be a greater threat than Ulic despite the fact that Ulic was more visible.

Your the man with the scans. Did Vodo have his lightsaber avaliable to him? Perhaps the staff was all he had.

Originally posted by IKC
Forgive me if I find it hard to believe that you can shatter large rocks with an already-broken staff wrapped together in cloth.

Not with an already broken staff, but I can with a good one. A Jedi Master should be able to do the same.

Once again, tell me what Kun did that Luke couldn't do? Besides fail at the end

The hell? Feat wars?

Going to come back with some logic and evidence, now?

That's my point. Why wasn't he at the Jedi capital? That's where the Grandmaster should be. Is there any evidence that he was actually the Grandmaster?

Because none of the other Jedi Masters spent all their time at the capital? You realize that Vodo was training three apprentices at the time, not unlike all the others you can bother to mention, right?

That makes Exar's victory over him a lot less impressive.

Do you even know what the hell you're talking about, dude? They fought twice. The time in question is when Exar was a freaking padawan. Of course Vodo wouldn't want to kill his apprentice.

It's a different story by The Sith War.

Your the man with the scans. Did Vodo have his lightsaber avaliable to him? Perhaps the staff was all he had.

Vodo is never shown using a lightsaber but he is said to be a great warrior in the beginning of DLotS. Does Vodo need a lightsaber when he can make his staff more powerful than one? I think not.

Not with an already broken staff, but I can with a good one. A Jedi Master should be able to do the same.

Again, I have my doubts.

Originally posted by IKC
Vodo wasn't using his staff at all until he hits Kun's hand as he's about to strike at Sylvar after Sylvar clawed him. This was a training exercise when Kun was still a padawan. Obviously Vodo has some precision control over which parts of his staff are empowered since he can hold it with bare hands.

It's possible but extremely unlikely, given that Vodo has a big two-page monologue before he confronts Exar Kun for the final time with the intent to stop him armed only with his stick. Obviously either he can give his stick properties we're unaware of or Vodo's such a good fighter that he thought he could incapacitate Kun with it.

.

1) You can't be sure of this though. It could just be possible that staff was not as powerful as lightsaber.

2)The fact is Vodo was an aged weakling at the time Kun fought him. This was more of personal vendetta on Kun's part, rather than proof of any skill. I think Revan could do the same to a Jedi master of equal skill to Vodo, if he had held any grudge against them

1) You can't be sure of this though. It could just be possible that staff was not as powerful as lightsaber.

You can easily assume that because the narrator mentioned it.

You can't assume it is more durable or has greater cutting power. You can assume it's the ambiguous "more powerful" though.

2)The fact is Vodo was an aged weakling at the time Kun fought him. This was more of personal vendetta on Kun's part, rather than proof of any skill. I think Revan could do the same to a Jedi master of equal skill to Vodo, if he had held any grudge against them

What you think is impermissable. And there is no proof that Vodo was an "aged weakling." You can not twist the parameters so it suits you.

Originally posted by zephiel7
1) You can't be sure of this though. It could just be possible that staff was not as powerful as lightsaber.

2)The fact is Vodo was an aged weakling at the time Kun fought him. This was more of personal vendetta on Kun's part, rather than proof of any skill. I think Revan could do the same to a Jedi master of equal skill to Vodo, if he had held any grudge against them

1) As IKC has shown you, the comics clearly stated that Vodo made his staff more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber

2) Aged weakling? you seriously underrate the jedi of Kun's time and you overrate the Kotor era, so in your eyes yoda who was the grandmaster of the PT order was an aged weakling, thats what you're implying, because in 600 years vodo trained to be perhaps the most skillful lightsaber fighter amongst the Jedi, as well the knowledged that was opened to him, was enough to prove that in 600 years he would have gained adequated knowledge in the force to overpower malak, who could not confront Revan, and defeated noone to name, neither did he accomplish and amazing feats, having just taken what Revan found and did and contiued it

You are clearly in love with Revan and The Jedi/Sith of the that time, not surprisingly since you probably judge because exar kun has not been incoporated into a game and revan has, you ignore the fact that Kun studied Sith magic and learned from various sithlords on korriban, you are ignorant to the fact that experience grants knowledge and 600 years would be enough to hone one's lightsaber techinques.

1) As IKC has shown you, the comics clearly stated that Vodo made his staff more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber

OMG, NJO Luke didn't empower his staff to become as powerful as a lightsaber. Vodo must be > than NJO Luke.

Thats good for Vodo that he could that. It has no bearing on his combat abilities per se, just that he can enhance weaponry.

2) Aged weakling? you seriously underrate the jedi of Kun's time and you overrate the Kotor era, so in your eyes yoda who was the grandmaster of the PT order was an aged weakling, thats what you're implying, because in 600 years vodo trained to be perhaps the most skillful lightsaber fighter amongst the Jedi, as well the knowledged that was opened to him, was enough to prove that in 600 years he would have gained adequated knowledge in the force to overpower malak, who could not confront Revan, and defeated noone to name, neither did he accomplish and amazing feats, having just taken what Revan found and did and contiued it

Maybe I used a bit of a hyperbole there when I said aged weakling. What I meant was that Vodo was old and Exar was a young prodigy. Exar won.

so what?

Revan defeated Malak. The argument on Exar's successful duel does not give him anything over Revan in terms of lightsaber combat.

Exar tied a "poisoned and wounded young prodigy (Ulic)". Malak, I can safely state is equal to a fully healthy Ulic Qel Droma.

As I stated on Revan vs Kyp Durron and Kyle Katarn thread

"Malak who was rumoured to be the greatest lightsaber duelist that could contend with Revan? The same Malak who easily defeated Kavar, the most reknowned duelist of the Jedi Order? The Malak who could control and became empowered by the Star Forge that destroyed countless other Sith Lords?

Yes I think he could easily contend with Vodo Bass"

This at least puts them on par in lightsaber combat. This is no random fanboyism. I admit I like Revan, but my arguments have been with proof.

OMG, NJO Luke didn't empower his staff to become as powerful as a lightsaber. Vodo must be > than NJO Luke.

Thats good for Vodo that he could that. It has no bearing on his combat abilities per se, just that he can enhance weaponry.

It doesn't. It indicates force mastery. NJO Luke doesn't have to exhibit the same feats because he has other feats to attest to his ability to use a force.

That and the fact the same narrator says Vodo was powerful, and that he was one of the top masters in the entirety of a martial order of thousands (with the stronghold of knowledge on Ossus), makes it pretty clear he is far from from being a weakling.

Maybe I used a bit of a hyperbole there when I said aged weakling. What I meant was that Vodo was old and Exar was a young prodigy. Exar won.

so what?

By that standard, if someone beat Yoda, it would be a trivial detail.

Like you said, Exar was a prodigy, he developed and mastered his own, unique lightsaber style, he learned Sith magic and dark side abilities that Revan did not have access too and there is no evidence of him attaining it.

Revan defeated Malak. The argument on Exar's successful duel does not give him anything over Revan in terms of lightsaber combat.

Exar tied a "poisoned and wounded young prodigy (Ulic)". Malak, I can safely state is equal to a fully healthy Ulic Qel Droma.

You can safely state with what proof? Ulic required at least 4 Jedi using a powerful move to subdue him. Ulic, who is described as an immense prodigy of both the lightsaber and force himself. The guy who took out Ommin (who easily imprisoned Arca Jeth) and hacked up people in the Beast Wars. The guy who beat a Jedi Knight AFTER he was blind to the force.

There you go again. You diminish the feats and abilities of Exar's contemporries in order to boost up Revan's.

As I stated on Revan vs Kyp Durron and Kyle Katarn thread

"Malak who was rumoured to be the greatest lightsaber duelist that could contend with Revan? The same Malak who easily defeated Kavar, the most reknowned duelist of the Jedi Order? The Malak who could control and became empowered by the Star Forge that destroyed countless other Sith Lords?

He was never said to easily defeat Kavar. The circumstances of that battle were never revealed. Kavar did have to escape, but that doesn't mean he was easily beaten by any stretch. It's even possible that Kavar cut off Malak's jaw.

And countless other sith lords? You mean converted Jedi who had little training in Sith teachings and knew practically no sith Magic or Alchemy?

Naga Sadow never used the Star Forge, is he inferior because of that?

This at least puts them on par in lightsaber combat. This is no random fanboyism. I admit I like Revan, but my arguments have been with proof.

This is your opinion.

By extrapolation, you're saying your opinion puts them on par in lightsaber combat. Nope not quite. Nice try though.

Wow, you both have pretty badass points. I still wouldn't able to tell who is stronger between Revan, Kunn, and Nadd.

Just to expand, I need to hammer this ridiculous assertion into the ground everywhere it comes up:

Exar tied a "poisoned and wounded young prodigy (Ulic)".

So how many times do I have to prove that you're wrong and possibly lying on the off chance that you know better?

Oh my, what a weakened Ulic! I guess that's why he needed three strong Jedi, one with a cyborg arm to hold him down just moments earlier. I guess that's why he's well enough to start sexing up Aleema Keto for what must be the seventh time that day.

By the way, your estimation that Ulic = Malak is just an opinion and impermissible in a debate. Ulic Qel-Droma beat a Jedi in lightsaber combat when he no longer had a connection to the Force. Prove that Malak's anywhere near him.

true very true. Also If Malak was a lightsaber prodigy would he have lost half his jaw? as well by the time, Revan and Malak came about, most of the Sith Alchemy and Magic teachings were gone, due to being loss on Yavin 4, so in knowledge its likely Kun supassed Revan, in lightsaber skills, Kun invented his own lightsaber as well as his own unique style which died with him, and Prove that Vodo, named one of the most reowned Jedi Master, and most likely on par with yoda is weaker than malak? what he lacks physically he makes up for his 600 year experience..

I say Sadow nd Kressh almost equal Luke and Ragos, you add the likes of Kun and Raven and it's over quickly.

Again people its incredibly unlikely that Malak lost his jaw to Kavar, if you wish to argue that you need to prove up its not going to work.

Being older also doens't mean anything, its a reoccuring theme in Star Wars the old die to the young prodigy's. Afterall Vodo lost from Exar Kun, Yoda from Sidious yes he was more powerful but not enough to beat Sidious.

I really don't see a reason to assume either Vodo or Malak as more powerful, both were good. Both don't have enough evidence to proclaim once as better then the other. Malak and Ulic would also very likely be a great fight that could be won by both IMO. I don't really see the evidence that is supposed to show either of those more powerful then Malak, at least not any evidence that is allowed in other debates.

Fishy, the onus is on you to prove Malak is up to their level.

Why? You are claiming that Malak can't compare, you are claiming that everything Malak did does not compare even when it is impressive.

What makes him so much better? you have nothing supporting Vodo but some hearsay and something the narrator claims and although what that guy claims is right it hardly makes him the most powerful out there. You claim controling the Star Forge isn't impressive even when it literally destroyed Ex Jedi Councilmembers because they didn't have the power.

You are claiming that ruling over thousands is not impressive when the entire civilization is based on war, but that probably leading the Jedi order a order based on peace and wisdom is impressive.

You are claiming that Vodo made his stick more powerful then a lightsaber in cutting power even though nothing shows that, it just shows that the stick could stand up against a lightsaber attack and you are claiming that doing that somehow makes you uber. Sith made blades able to resist lightsaber attacks for thousands of years.

There are things to support Vodo is more powerful but when ever I make any conclusion like that about anything else then a TOTJ character you go against it with all you have. Even if the assumption is far more reasonable and supported by more facts. You don't have any real proof.

OOOOH Fishy has a point there.. If you two could argue this way about everything else, you'd make for some good lawyers

With all due respect, Fishy, Vodo was a melee master and over 600 years old. Malak was an upstart who, even at the peak of his greatness, couldn't destroy the jedi order or defeat Revan and his companions. Indeed, the idea of comparing Vodo to Malak is a bit skewed. Malak, while good, was arrogant, and Vodo was able to train and defeat the likes of many generations of jedi knights, including Exar Kun.

You claim controling the Star Forge isn't impressive even when it literally destroyed Ex Jedi Councilmembers because they didn't have the power.

When the hell did it say that it destroyed ex council members?

Furthermore, where was it explicitly stated that one had to be sufficiently powerful to control the Star Forge? For all you know, there are other prerequisites.

You are claiming that ruling over thousands is not impressive when the entire civilization is based on war, but that probably leading the Jedi order a order based on peace and wisdom is impressive.

Except the Jedi Order was a martial one, one even admitted by you to be more martial than the Jedi Order of only 40 years later. They wore battle armor and kept the peace militarily. Vodo rose to the top of an order much larger than Malak's.

And I never claimed that being on the top of Revan's faux Sith wasn't impressive, but one has to take into context the general competance of Revan's faux Sith.

You are claiming that Vodo made his stick more powerful then a lightsaber in cutting power even though nothing shows that, it just shows that the stick could stand up against a lightsaber attack and you are claiming that doing that somehow makes you uber. Sith made blades able to resist lightsaber attacks for thousands of years.

Actually I never said that the stick had cutting power. Try quoting me for truth, Fishy.

I said the stick must have properties we are unaware of, because Vodo confronted Kun with it as his weapon with the intent to stop him.

And Sith swords were apparently infused with Cortosis. Vodo's stick was made of wood.

There are things to support Vodo is more powerful but when ever I make any conclusion like that about anything else then a TOTJ character you go against it with all you have. Even if the assumption is far more reasonable and supported by more facts. You don't have any real proof.

Actually, whenever you make these ridiculous statements about how KOTOR pwns all, I go after it with all I have. The KOTOR era wasn't an era of anything special with the possible exception of Nihilus. That's all.

Originally posted by Fishy
Again people its incredibly unlikely that Malak lost his jaw to Kavar, if you wish to argue that you need to prove up its not going to work.

Being older also doens't mean anything, its a reoccuring theme in Star Wars the old die to the young prodigy's. Afterall Vodo lost from Exar Kun, Yoda from Sidious yes he was more powerful but not enough to beat Sidious.

Vodo has more experience than Malak, and he hasn't lost anything that we know of. And the mere fact that he uses a staff when others uses lightsabers is already impressive.

I really don't see a reason to assume either Vodo or Malak as more powerful, both were good. Both don't have enough evidence to proclaim once as better then the other. Malak and Ulic would also very likely be a great fight that could be won by both IMO. I don't really see the evidence that is supposed to show either of those more powerful then Malak, at least not any evidence that is allowed in other debates.

No, no one has to prove up anything. Malak lost a jaw. If he didn't lose it to Kavar, chances are he lost it against an inferior warrior. Kavar was one of the top duelists in the order. Unless you can establish that it was Revan who did it, it doesn't bode well for Malak.

Originally posted by Wesker
With all due respect, Fishy, Vodo was a melee master and over 600 years old. Malak was an upstart who, even at the peak of his greatness, couldn't destroy the jedi order or defeat Revan and his companions. Indeed, the idea of comparing Vodo to Malak is a bit skewed. Malak, while good, was arrogant, and Vodo was able to train and defeat the likes of many generations of jedi knights, including Exar Kun.

Agreed. The level Vodo was at is written in stone. He was a revered Jedi master in the Freedon Nadd Uprising, Dark Lords of the Sith, and the Sith War. The proof is for the Malak supporters to argue he is at that level.