Originally posted by Fishy
And I said he used lightning and you said that was bullshit and I needed to prove up and I just did.
Bullshit, you still have not proven that it was a Force attack, Fishy. Any one of the scenarios I've given you can work, your speculation has done nothing to discredit them.
I can't believe you're trying to argue this based on a single quote from one of a group of primitives who haven't seen or used advanced technology in millenia.
Originally posted by IKC
Bullshit, you still have not proven that it was a Force attack, Fishy. Any one of the scenarios I've given you can work, your speculation has done nothing to discredit them.I can't believe you're trying to argue this based on a single quote from one of a group of primitives who haven't seen or used advanced technology in millenia.
It wasn't technology can't you get that through your head, it is impossible that it was a ship... Ships simply don't work there. What could it have been then?
Oh, and even if the guns that Revan's ship used to fire at the Rakata planet were only 1% as powerful as a gun on an ISD, there would still be a fireball with a 1400 meter radius. This is all based off information from stardestroyer.net It rates that the average power from an ISD canon is 595 megatons. A 5.95 megaton nuke has a fire ball with a radius of 1400 meters according to the site.
In otherworlds, even if we assume that a ship can fire(which makes no sense as it defeats the purpose of the shield), even the years later that Revan came back there would have been massive craters. So, Fishy is right, it could not have been a ship.
IKC, try and prove that it was a ship when taking this into consideration.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
[B]Oh, and even if the guns that Revan's ship used to fire at the Rakata planet were only 1% as powerful as a gun on an ISD, there would still be a fireball with a 1400 meter radius. This is all based off information from stardestroyer.net It rates that the average power from an ISD canon is 595 megatons. A 5.95 megaton nuke has a fire ball with a radius of 1400 meters according to the site.In otherworlds, even if we assume that a ship can fire(which makes no sense as it defeats the purpose of the shield), even the years later that Revan came back there would have been massive craters. So, Fishy is right, it could not have been a ship.
IKC, try and prove that it was a ship when taking this into consideration. [/B]
1. We've already seen the demonstrated firepower of KOTOR era ships in the FMV where Taris is ****ed. It was not resembling a 5.96 megaton. Again, you're taking one figure and twisting it to fit your ideals. There are NUMEROUS sizes and types of guns on the ISD. The KOTOR era guns might be as powerful as <1% of an ISD turbolaser... but of what size? Wong does his findings on the ones used in ESB to clear the asteroid field; large to midsized turbolasers. But you saying that they must be comparable to KOTOR ship weapons contradicts the FMV of Taris being destroyed. There's no 5.95 megaton chain reactions happening on those buildings being shot up. They could be using smaller turbolaser canons for a lesser effect. I mean, who the hell uses their largest weapons on primitives? Would you use an antitank launcher on a primitive warrior or a rifle?
2. Looking for craters on the planet? Good. While you're there find them where each and every ship crashed. Hell, there's a ship crash on the beach and the sand looks as flat as anywhere else, with perhaps a five or six foot across scortch mark.
3. The shield puts ships out of commission. It does NOT effect their weapons. Turbolaser ranges are excessive, and it is a possibility that they were used in this instance. Also, SW photon torpedoes have long ranges too.
Originally posted by Wesker
1. We've already seen the demonstrated firepower of KOTOR era ships in the FMV where Taris is ****ed. It was not resembling a 5.96 megaton. Again, you're taking one figure and twisting it to fit your ideals. There are NUMEROUS sizes and types of guns on the ISD. The KOTOR era guns might be as powerful as <1% of an ISD turbolaser... but of what size? Wong does his findings on the ones used in ESB to clear the asteroid field; large to midsized turbolasers. But you saying that they must be comparable to KOTOR ship weapons contradicts the FMV of Taris being destroyed. There's no 5.95 megaton chain reactions happening on those buildings being shot up. They could be using smaller turbolaser canons for a lesser effect. I mean, who the hell uses their largest weapons on primitives? Would you use an antitank launcher on a primitive warrior or a rifle?2. Looking for craters on the planet? Good. While you're there find them where each and every ship crashed. Hell, there's a ship crash on the beach and the sand looks as flat as anywhere else, with perhaps a five or six foot across scortch mark.
3. The shield puts ships out of commission. It does NOT effect their weapons. Turbolaser ranges are excessive, and it is a possibility that they were used in this instance. Also, SW photon torpedoes have long ranges too.
1. doesn't matter of course they are weaker, there would still have been a crater
2. Well the ships can still brake, and most ships were there for a long time.
3. So are you honestly saying that a ship thats out of commision landing somewhere, likely on that iland but thats not even proven, would be able to shoot at rakatan war beasts and scout party's from god knows how far, knocking out several of them while Revan and Malak the two only confirmed people on that planet were near the party's, without any communication ability's, yeah sure that makes sense.?
Originally posted by Fishy
1. doesn't matter of course they are weaker, there would still have been a crater2. Well the ships can still brake, and most ships were there for a long time.
3. So are you honestly saying that a ship thats out of commision landing somewhere, likely on that iland but thats not even proven, would be able to shoot at rakatan war beasts and scout party's from god knows how far, knocking out several of them while Revan and Malak the two only confirmed people on that planet were near the party's, without any communication ability's, yeah sure that makes sense.?
Don't speed read next time, please.
1. It's been almost five years since the invasion of Afghanistan. It's a sandy country. Go find me a five year old crater from a small weapon. The point is that craters not being present on the game map shouldn't be conclusive proof that there was no weaponry used. There's shootouts with large weapons ALL over Dxun. Airdrops, droids, etc. How many craters did you see on Dxun?
2. If a ship larger than a dinner table survives atmospheric entry and reaches terminal velocity, hitting the ground, there should realistically be craters. There aren't any. Period. The game map wasn't designed entirely for realism and attention to detail. After all, none of the Sith tombs make any sense, the Sith academy can let perhaps twelve people nap, and only four people live on a single floor in Taris. Hell, look at underwater Manaan. We're lucky the lightsabers are Photoshopped on!
3. Actually, if you read what I wrote, I was saying the determined range of turbolasers and photon torpedoes is considerable, enough to fire from well out of orbit. In fact, the "shield" generated by the Star Forge is laughable in that it only keeps out close broadside shots and landing parties. In space nothing is there to stop a turbolaser shot from singing across thousands of miles and slamming into the structure itself. Obviously the Ratakan did not fight beings with turbolasers.
But the idea of a derelict ship firing weapons from the ground is possible, but not likely the case, since it is specified as coming from the heavens.
Even so Janus, lets just assume that the ships could get in range of the planet and shoot, which is unproven really...
Then are you suggesting the Sith fleet or any ship for that matter would have shot down from the sky at the Rakatan war party's, but that it let the bases stand both of the elders and of the tribe of the one, that then Revan and Malak came down there somehow made the Rakatan believe they caused the attacks, without knowing their language. After doing that learned their language and then went on to do stuff...
Whats the possible reason. Revan doesn't seem like the person who would destroy a possible source of knowledge from space without knowing what it is.
Its also very unlikely that they would have attacked the scout party's and then let the bases live, leave the rancors near the temple live and not destroy the two bases from the sky. Also is there any reason to assume that they could just scan the planet?
Its impossible for it to have been a ship, its so incredibly unlikely because of way to many factors to even begin to state. It wasn't a ship, it wasn't technology it was force lightning on its most powerful state.
Originally posted by Fishy
Even so Janus, lets just assume that the ships could get in range of the planet and shoot, which is unproven really...
Actually, the possibility is there, which is my whole point. When I saw the quote, I assumed it was a turbolaser attack over two years ago. I still consider that a viable possibility. Notice that the Ebon Hawk didn't experience engine problems until it was well within range of the planet itself. In SW, combat takes place often in thousands of kilometers in range, as noted in ROTJ. In space, there's nothing to stop a turbolaser, even a small one, from pinpoint bombarding a location. As shown in the FMV with Taris being rained down upon, KotOR era ships apparently did not cause such drastic damage as Glentract implies, or at least could use smaller weapons and control said damage. And the idea of assuming it MUST be the force and it CANNOT be anything else is a bit premature. It IS a quote from a rather backwards, isolated society.
Then are you suggesting the Sith fleet or any ship for that matter would have shot down from the sky at the Rakatan war party's, but that it let the bases stand both of the elders and of the tribe of the one, that then Revan and Malak came down there somehow made the Rakatan believe they caused the attacks, without knowing their language. After doing that learned their language and then went on to do stuff...
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There's no indication that the war party was sitting on something precious. Where do -you- think a war party would convene? On a battle field, most likely. And it's likely that a battle was being fought. After all, where would be an instance indoors where Revan could summon "lightning from the sky". And really, if it's from the sky, it can't be sith lightning, since that's personally generated.
Whats the possible reason. Revan doesn't seem like the person who would destroy a possible source of knowledge from space without knowing what it is.
There's absolutely no indication that he ever put a building or source of knowledge in jeopardy. So this means nothing.
Its also very unlikely that they would have attacked the scout party's and then let the bases live, leave the rancors near the temple live and not destroy the two bases from the sky. Also is there any reason to assume that they could just scan the planet?
Actually, all this assuming and saying "unlikely" isn't really ground in any evidence or observable fact. You may want to rethink that. And scanning would be dubious at best, since there was interference over the planet.
Its impossible for it to have been a ship, its so incredibly unlikely because of way to many factors to even begin to state. It wasn't a ship, it wasn't technology it was force lightning on its most powerful state.
Wow, talk about a leap of faith. You've ruled out the possibility of turbolasers entirely, despite the fact that pinpoint bombardment IS possible and I've shown that that KotOR ships are sufficient enough not to scar the entire planet just zapping a few primitives. I've shown that there's no indication of it being sith lightning, because it is described as coming from the sky, not being personally generated. Hell, even if I were to try and argue FOR sith lightning, it'd be a losing battle.
- The lightning came from the sky, not from Revan. Sith lightning specifically comes from one's hands. This is evident.
- Removing the above point, if we assume that it was indeed sith lightning and Revan shot it forth, we have no idea of the time it took to generate it. Also, we have no idea if it would be easily defended against by a greater force user.
I will say that it's very likely that Revan did know sith lightning, simply because Malak displayed it canonically and Revan was the master shortly beforehand. However, assuming from a single quote that Revan has "teh oobur ligtning" is ridiculous at best, biased at worst.
Originally posted by Wesker
[B]Actually, the possibility is there, which is my whole point. When I saw the quote, I assumed it was a turbolaser attack over two years ago. I still consider that a viable possibility. Notice that the Ebon Hawk didn't experience engine problems until it was well within range of the planet itself. In SW, combat takes place often in thousands of kilometers in range, as noted in ROTJ. In space, there's nothing to stop a turbolaser, even a small one, from pinpoint bombarding a location. As shown in the FMV with Taris being rained down upon, KotOR era ships apparently did not cause such drastic damage as Glentract implies, or at least could use smaller weapons and control said damage. And the idea of assuming it MUST be the force and it CANNOT be anything else is a bit premature. It IS a quote from a rather backwards, isolated society.
K point,
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There's no indication that the war party was sitting on something precious. Where do -you- think a war party would convene? On a battle field, most likely. And it's likely that a battle was being fought. After all, where would be an instance indoors where Revan could summon "lightning from the sky". And really, if it's from the sky, it can't be sith lightning, since that's personally generated.
What i'm getting at is the following..
the war party's were constantly scouting thats what they did. For some reason the Sith ships without having any knowledge of them shot at them. That is what you are claiming, I find this highly unlikely. Knowing Revan. And actually the Lightning thing. remember the third stage of lighting from Kotor? Revan raises his hands, shoots lightning into the sky from there on it finds and electrocutes its target. Primitives would see this as lightning from the sky. Seeing as he raised his hands as if calling the lightning then the lightning came from above his hand and shot them down. Far more logical then ship fire which doesn't even look like lightning.
There's absolutely no indication that he ever put a building or source of knowledge in jeopardy. So this means nothing.
He attacked a group of people he had no knowledge of and later on started talking to them... Do you think somebody who knew what was on the planet and had the intention of talking to them would have done something like that? Highly unlikely.
Actually, all this assuming and saying "unlikely" isn't really ground in any evidence or observable fact. You may want to rethink that. And scanning would be dubious at best, since there was interference over the planet.
Exactly my point, so how could they without communication ability's have pinpointed the location where they needed to fire? And we know it wasn't a mass bombardment of the planet.
Wow, talk about a leap of faith. You've ruled out the possibility of turbolasers entirely, despite the fact that pinpoint bombardment IS possible and I've shown that that KotOR ships are sufficient enough not to scar the entire planet just zapping a few primitives. I've shown that there's no indication of it being sith lightning, because it is described as coming from the sky, not being personally generated. Hell, even if I were to try and argue FOR sith lightning, it'd be a losing battle.
Read above, the most powerful form of lightning is done exactly like the Rakatan describe it, bombing the planet and the party's is unlikely as well. You yourself said scanning is unlikely to be possible.
- The lightning came from the sky, not from Revan. Sith lightning specifically comes from one's hands. This is evident.
Its exactly how it looks though.
- Removing the above point, if we assume that it was indeed sith lightning and Revan shot it forth, we have no idea of the time it took to generate it. Also, we have no idea if it would be easily defended against by a greater force user.
And again that was not even the argument, I was just arguing IKC when he said Revan could not use it all. However looking at the game, we know its a power that can be learned and that Revan possibly learned it again if he did it was doable in just a second. We know it killed Rancors and rakatan that were attacking them, now it is possible Revan just sat down started meditating to kill them while Malak was holding them off, posisble but so inredibly unlikely and because of Ocam's razor and logical deducation or shit like that, the only logical conclusion would be: Revan shot Sith lightning and killedthem.
I will say that it's very likely that Revan did know sith lightning, simply because Malak displayed it canonically and Revan was the master shortly beforehand. However, assuming from a single quote that Revan has "teh oobur ligtning" is ridiculous at best, biased at worst.
Powerful enough to kill Rancors and Rakatan, thats all I am saying. So it couldn't have been weak. Uber? No, probably not. No real evidence to prove that. However all I was claiming and that is what this debate is about that Revan used lightning there. And therefor knew it.
Hm. I'm hesitant to consider that it was the level three lightning, since that is a game manuever and suspect. After all, should we think that all other special effects shown for powers in game are canon? While I can see where you're coming from, I'm not sure that's the exact maneuver. But it's a good guess, definately.
As far as not communicating with the ship, well... That's debatable. I seem to recall the sith on the Star Forge cancelling out the transmissions from the Ebon Hawk or something. After all, in ANH the ISD jammed the transmissions of the Blockade Runner. The tech does exist. I wish I could reply the damn level and find out, but I let someone borrow my copy of KotOR and they haven't talked to me in months.
I'll need to review the dialogue from that level before I continue.
Originally posted by Fishy
"The field disrupted any electronic equipment that approached the Star Forge, causing ships to be caught in the gravitational field of the Rakatan planet. The Unknown World, as it was called, was littered with the wreckage of thousands of years of ships unlucky enough to stumble upon the Star Forge."And
"This secrecy is further preserved by a powerful energy field surrounding the entire world that can disable any ship's communications and navigational abilities. Over the millennia, the Unknown World has become a technological graveyard, the tropical islands of its surface strewn with the wreckage of ships and cruisers unfortunate enough to have stumbled across the mysterious planet's hidden location. "
Taking from starwars.com and swkotor.com
Doesn't sound to me like they could use a ship... Or communication abilities to contact a ship outside of the shield...
Prove enough if you ask me...
The lightning, I know it looks like gameplay stuff. But you have to remember what the Rakatan say is based on gameplay stuff that on just what they saw. Which is the same as we see in game, and thats an in game animation. I'd pretty much means Revan used lightning in a different way then other people of that time, but still that he used it.