Actually yes. I've heard many arguments that Anakin > Windu and Yoda, because:
Anakin beat Dooku (someone who beat Mace)
Anakin claims he's more powerful than the Chancellor.
And they dismiss his failure to Obi-Wan with:
Obi-Wan, as Anakin's mentor, knew all of his moves.
Anakin was overwhelmed by grief
Obi-Wan had the highground at the end.
All of these are true, but I still can't see these things dropping Anakin so much. That is why I disagree with Anakin being the strongest, even if it's possible.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
That's why in KoToR some Jedi ran away from a couple of Sith Troopers?
I agree with a lot of things up there Fishy but look how great Yoda is and what we know about Yoda he was in the Clone War and that's the only war we know Yoda was in. Becoming a Jedi would still put you through intense training like it did in the Sith War era. Many call the PT Jedi weak because they basically got defeated in the Geosisian (not sure on spelling) Arena but they were outnumbered like 1 to 1,000.
I don't think living in a time of peace would make the training any easier like Luke said in Jedi Outcast:"If being a Jedi was easy their would be thousands of us instead of dozens."
Look how well Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fought Maul. Maul was trained his entire life to fight the Jedi and like you said the common enemy of the Jedi at the PT time used blasters so the Jedi mainly focused on deflecting blaster bolts but is that all they did? Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon gave Maul a very difficult fight proving that the PT Jedi did do saber dueling training.
Obi-Wan was even defeating Maul in one on one until Maul force pushed him into the hole. I do believe some people give way to much credit to the KoToR Jedi just because they were in the Sith War.
Jedi ran away from Sith troopers in Kotor? Where was that, I don't remember.
About Yoda, Yoda was the greatest of his time yes. However he never once managed to win a fight that we have seen. So how great was he really, he had terrible force powers a great force defense but his lightsaber skills were lacking. He jumped around but failed to strike, and Yoda was clearly the exception.
Obi Wan and QGJ were also exceptions, most members of the Jedi Order used a lightsaber form that wasn't good in anything it was just a way to move your lightsaber thats why they died at Geonosis, did you know that only Niman (or whatever the name of that form is) users died... Everybody that used a form that required a lot more training lived to see the end of it.
But on their fight, yeah they were doing great. But Maul had not been out of training for a very long time, weeks if I remember correctly. Then he came to Obi Wan and QGJ, and he did kill QGJ one of the most powerful people in the PT Jedi Order and highly respected...
Now that could speak for Maul, but Maul shows no real skill in that fight that hasn't been done far better by others. He doesn't use the force in ways that are impressive at least for as far as we see. Only force powers I know he has is choking and pushing. He really isn't all that good, would he have met Dooku for instance he would have been dead, or Yoda for that matter.
And really if one of the best Jedi the PT order has will die when fighting a relatively weak Sith apprentice, then I would be hate to see what the rest would do when facing the Sith of older days when they were still used to fighting great battles and kill many people even in lightsaber fights.
Originally posted by Hello Friend
The Jedi were outnumbered 5,000 to 1 on Geonosis BTW
Where they outnumbered 5.000 to 1 in the arena or in total? still if the Jedi would have had common sense and any kind of battle tactics, they would have been able to capture Dooku and win the battle of geonosis without a lot of problems and without even half the casualty's.
And I don't see why people dismiss Maul as weak. He was a Sith Lord who, according to the TPM, had incredible command of the force. Judging by choreography alone, he's a far better fighter than anyone in the PT. That may not be true canonically, but he's more powerful than Council Members.
He has 30 years of Sith training under Sidious. I also read somewhere that Maul was only a slightly worse duelist than Sidious, and that he almost bested him once.
Originally posted by Fishy
Where they outnumbered 5.000 to 1 in the arena or in total? still if the Jedi would have had common sense and any kind of battle tactics, they would have been able to capture Dooku and win the battle of geonosis without a lot of problems and without even half the casualty's.
There were 1,000,000 droids on Geonosis. Now that I think about it, I doubt all of them were in the Arena. But there were ALOT. And they were pouring in insects.
Originally posted by Hello Friend
And I don't see why people dismiss Maul as weak. He was a Sith Lord who, according to the TPM, had incredible command of the force. Judging by choreography alone, he's a far better fighter than anyone in the PT. That may not be true canonically, but he's more powerful than Council Members.He has 30 years of Sith training under Sidious. I also read somewhere that Maul was only a slightly worse duelist than Sidious, and that he almost bested him once.
He probably was superior to most council members, but does that say something about him or the council members?
He could not match the council members who knew what they were doing, Mace would have slaughtered him, Yoda would have, Obi Wan in ROTS would have, and those really are the only one's that have skill...
Originally posted by Fishy
Jedi ran away from Sith troopers in Kotor? Where was that, I don't remember.About Yoda, Yoda was the greatest of his time yes. However he never once managed to win a fight that we have seen. So how great was he really, he had terrible force powers a great force defense but his lightsaber skills were lacking. He jumped around but failed to strike, and Yoda was clearly the exception.
Obi Wan and QGJ were also exceptions, most members of the Jedi Order used a lightsaber form that wasn't good in anything it was just a way to move your lightsaber thats why they died at Geonosis, did you know that only Niman (or whatever the name of that form is) users died... Everybody that used a form that required a lot more training lived to see the end of it.
But on their fight, yeah they were doing great. But Maul had not been out of training for a very long time, weeks if I remember correctly. Then he came to Obi Wan and QGJ, and he did kill QGJ one of the most powerful people in the PT Jedi Order and highly respected...
Now that could speak for Maul, but Maul shows no real skill in that fight that hasn't been done far better by others. He doesn't use the force in ways that are impressive at least for as far as we see. Only force powers I know he has is choking and pushing. He really isn't all that good, would he have met Dooku for instance he would have been dead, or Yoda for that matter.
And really if one of the best Jedi the PT order has will die when fighting a relatively weak Sith apprentice, then I would be hate to see what the rest would do when facing the Sith of older days when they were still used to fighting great battles and kill many people even in lightsaber fights.
Fact of the matter is their was around 1,000,000 battle droids fighting 200 Jedi Knights. 1,000,000/200. Throw in any 200 Jedi/Sith from KoToR (1/2) and they would still end up defeated if not for the arrival of the clone army.
Yoda had terrible force powers? Compared to whom? People can argue that Yoda defeated Dooku considering Dooku knocked over a pillar so Yoda would give time for the count to escape. And really, Revan (and Malak) shown no great force powers either.
The most we seen (I've seen any way) was Revan doing a force tornado thingy making the Sith unable to fight but the lighting Revan threw out just stunned them a little. It didn't send them flying 30 feet away like Palpatine did to Mace or crashing into a wall like Dooku did to Anakin.
Dooku seems to have better control of the force then Revan. Some argue that Revan is powerful because he went through dozens of Dark Jedi and Sith Droids on the Star Forge but was he alone? No. Did he face them all at once? No.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Fact of the matter is their was around 1,000,000 battle droids fighting 200 Jedi Knights. 1,000,000/200. Throw in any 200 Jedi/Sith from KoToR (1/2) and they would still end up defeated if not for the arrival of the clone army.
Yoda had terrible force powers? Compared to whom? People can argue that Yoda defeated Dooku considering Dooku knocked over a pillar so Yoda would give time for the count to escape. And really, Revan (and Malak) shown no great force powers either.
The most we seen (I've seen any way) was Revan doing a force tornado thingy making the Sith unable to fight but the lighting Revan threw out just stunned them a little. It didn't send them flying 30 feet away like Palpatine did to Mace or crashing into a wall like Dooku did to Anakin.
Dooku seems to have better control of the force then Revan. Some argue that Revan is powerful because he went through dozens of Dark Jedi and Sith Droids on the Star Forge but was he alone? No. Did he face them all at once? No.
Mace didn't have a hand anymore... Palps shooting him away isn't really that impressive neither is what Dooku did. And how would Kotor Jedi have done? I'm sure they would have managed to stand longer, more Jedi would have lived. They were used to war, they were trained for war they lived in times of war. Greatly trained soldiers preform better then those who are not prepared..
But you can't really compare those people wouldn't be stupid enough to do what the PT Jedi did, but thats more a sign that the PT generals suck then the warriors.
See, Yoda had 900 years under his belt, Mace Windu was a saber prodigy who mastered Vaapad, and Obi-Wan was THE master of Soresu. They were all the heavy hitters of their times. All three of these guys could contend with Sith Lords...
Fisto was also a brilliant duelist. On Geonosis, he fights magnificantly. But when compared to Sith Lords (who are superior to the average Jedi Master) he goes down quick. Doesn't say he's weak, seeing as how he pwned like 1000 droids in the Arena, but some people are so powerful they make him look weak.
Originally posted by Hello Friend
Obi-Wan, as Anakin's mentor, knew most of his moves.
Anakin was overwhelmed by grief
Obi-Wan had the highground at the end.Obi-Wan was more clever, Anakin was more powerful. I believe GL even says that during the ROTS DVD Commentary
Obi-Wan's cleverness was part of his power. As was Anakin's, 'quick to react'.
Originally posted by Fishy
Mace didn't have a hand anymore... Palps shooting him away isn't really that impressive neither is what Dooku did. And how would Kotor Jedi have done? I'm sure they would have managed to stand longer, more Jedi would have lived. They were used to war, they were trained for war they lived in times of war. Greatly trained soldiers preform better then those who are not prepared..But you can't really compare those people wouldn't be stupid enough to do what the PT Jedi did, but thats more a sign that the PT generals suck then the warriors.
Are you sure about that? In KoToR II wasn't the Jedi Order basically destroyed? You're saying that just because they were trained during times of war makes them great, bah!
Dooku with the force lifted Obi-Wan off his feet using force choke and tossed him across the room. Never seen Revan do anything that compares to that. Palpatine was lifting senate pods and tossing them left and right like they were toys. Never seen Revan do anything like that.
Yoda's force push on the Emperor threw him further then anyone I've seen in KoToR.
Not to mention you are basicing your reasons that the KoToR Jedi would do better when you basically only know a few of them. You're saying that 200 KoToR Jedi would do better then 200 PT Jedi against 1,000,000 Battle Droids. Didn't Lucas say before TPM that the PT would show the Jedi at their greatest?
Originally posted by Hello Friend
Actually yes. I've heard many arguments that Anakin > Windu and Yoda, because:Anakin beat Dooku (someone who beat Mace)
Anakin claims he's more powerful than the Chancellor.
And they dismiss his failure to Obi-Wan with:
Obi-Wan, as Anakin's mentor, knew all of his moves.
Anakin was overwhelmed by grief
Obi-Wan had the highground at the end.All of these are true, but I still can't see these things dropping Anakin so much. That is why I disagree with Anakin being the strongest, even if it's possible.
Dooku was ordered to loose to/not hurt Anakin. Mace also lost to Dooku years before, he grew much in power since then.
Lol since when has Anakin been a reliable source? He claimed that Obi-Wan was equal to Mace, and that he was better than them both.
That might be some of the reasons that Obi won over Anakin, but neither Yoda, Dooku or Mace would need such advantages. And Anakin knew Obi's style almost as well as he knew Anakin's, they needed to work effectivley as a team, so they learned from eachother. And Anakin not being able to control himself is a problem he has, no matter when you put him in a fight that will always be a disadvantage.
I believe Dooku beat Mace in the Clone Wars cartoon.
Anyways, yeah, it seems like the most logical deduction was that Dooku was holding back during the fight, however, the ROTS novel claims that Dooku goes all out at the end... and loses.
Maybe anger gave Anakin a huge boost? Who knows? I'm not saying I agree with the theory, I'm just saying it's possible.