Originally posted by tdtd
All of this was in this post, and this post isn't a 1 on 1 batte, you were saying?
Because arguing "NJO Luke owns" isn't at all implying that NJO Luke can beat Kun. You can make it politically correct all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you've taken several pages of misdirection to get to the point.
I'm not going to say Kun will win this fight, I said Kun definitely has a chance at winning this fight, and said evidence supports as much.
Originally posted by w00t2112
NJO Luke's greatest feat of relevance, is perhaps his feat of destroying an army of Vong with a lightsaber, however, Luke has not tooled revered force users of his time, he had no equal, neither did he have much to test him, Kun tooled the strongest of the Jedi Order in his time, drained the lifeforce of all the Massassi, and froze hundreds and thousands of people, now unless you can display feats the LUKE has accomplished and not anyone else, that equal that, then ok, however to my knowledge the best of Kun and best of NJO Luke, means Kun > NJO Luke. Thats if you're playing feat wars tdtd.
What ?
Yeah...Luke just tooled an army of a race which was in constant combat for millenia, has bio-engineered bodies (and some of them are wearing lightsaber resistant weapons and armor) and is nearly immune to the force. Kun could have reproduced that ?
And Luke had nobody to challenge him ?
- Vader and Sidious in ROTJ were both superior to him
- Joruus appeared to be superior to him (Thrawn trilogy)
- he faced a clone of himself (!) - no challenge ?
- DE Sidious was in fact superior to him in terms of force use
- he had to deal with Kun and Kyp Durron equipped with some nice bits of Kun's own knowledge
- that is followed by the likes of Hethrir and Desann
- now there is an entire army of YV's (see above) on top of that
- and Raynar with the combined force potential of the entire population of 375 planets as backup
But Luke had no challenge ? Where was the challenge for Kun who redicously tooled anybody in his time. Did Kun have an equal ? I hope you don't want compare Vodo or Odan to DE Sidious, Kun's own spirit or somebody like Raynar.
Except, that apart from Luke who began the trend of training Jedi's, after ROTJ, there haven't exactly been challenges for him, anyone he trains he will know well, its a case of "I taught you everything you know, but i didn't teach you everything i know."
Luke did teach his students everything he knows himself. He's a Jedi Master and not a Sith Lord that keeps knowledge hidden. And we see that some of Luke's force feats (or at least nearly every force power he used) could be used by his students as well but not on the same level.
Except Draining an entire race, seems much more impressive that hacking away through an army, logically, Kun could just as easily replicate Luke's feat, however Luke replicate his? Unlikely. Kun as you know, invent his own style and his own double-blade lightsaber, he can wield it with extreme speed and he tooled a Jedi Master who is arguably the Grand Master, and having trained for 600 years is certianly no noob with a lightsaber/ stick.
Except Kun didn't exactly "drain" the Massasi - they sacrificed their own lives for him. That's a little difference. I don't see why Luke with Kun's knowledge of the ritual Kun used shouldn't be able to do the same. On the other handside: Can Kun control black holes, make planets invisible (and undedectable even for force users) or use instakill attacks against beings which are nearly immune to force attacks ? Unlikely.
And I know Kun invented his own style and his own weapon type. That puts him on a very high level in terms of lightsaber duelling. Nobody is going to deny that. But could he move so fast that even trained Jedi couldn't see his physical movements any longer ? As it seems Vodo and Ulic were both able to parry his strikes (so they still saw him, right ?).
Luke is simply depicted as a force god in Post ROTJ times, there is no evidence to show that he could do much of them on a force user than he did not train. He was the Grand Master, and he began training Jedi, so he most likely would know what his students do.
He could use attacks on beings that are nearly immune to force attacks but he can't do the same on force users who are - at best - able to block said attacks ? We have seen 900-year-old Yoda having at least some minor problems with force lightning (which is certainly no "instakill" ability) but you think that somebody who will look relatively "untrained" compared to a 900-year-old Jedi Master / Grandmaster of the Jedi Order can block instakill abilities or other force attacks coming from Luke "force god" Skywalker ?
We never see one of them move, not one, except for those that weren't frozen. And if they move they aren't frozen that much is clear. So unless the Narrator is lying, which he isn't then they couldn't move and were indeed frozen. Besides if he controlled them the Narrator would have said that. This is why this debate is stupid IKC because you try to make Exar look like a god with things he didn't do.
Yes, we never see them move. We also never see Exar Kun take a shit. Does that mean he didn't, Fishy? Does it then mean that he can't?
How about you actually address my points:
The narration isn't clear what they were forced to watch, only that all of them were forced to watch it. It's proper to assume that they were forced to watch whatever Kun wanted them to watch.Now, given that they were forced to watch what Kun wanted them to watch, he must have controlled them. Why? Because the odds of every being in the Senate already looking at what Kun wants them to see, before the spell was cast, are prohibitively high. Ergo, any spectator that was, for example, looking at his shoes, picking his nose, or holding a side conversation was stopped and forced to watch what Kun made them watch. QED.
If you're going to argue that all of them were already looking at what Kun wanted them to see, you're hopeless.
I'm eager to hear you claim that the entire chamber was already looking at what Kun wanted them to look at despite the prohibitive odds of that occurance.
That makes no sense, he was big on those things so what? He had no reason to not freeze the Jedi or let the chancellor go. The Jedi also didn't seem to notice that they were frozen because nobody said anything about it after Exar Kun supposedly released them. Its clear that he simply did not freeze the Jedi and the Chancellor.
It makes plenty of sense if you were thinking while reading.
He had no reason to not freeze the Jedi... except for the fact that none of them could hope to challenge him, right?
Using the nitpicking that passes for your logic, again, he had "no reason" to do much of anything. He could merely have dashed into the room, grabbed Ulic, and ran. Sorry. "No reason" is not an argument. Ergo, the possibilities I laid out still stand and do not contradict the narration, whereas yours does.
When using battle meditation people meditated, thats different then just an instant spell, everything that is done against a large group of people is done by meditation, unless you can name an example where a huge amount of people were frozen, influenced or whatever without meditation its proper to assume that Kun did use some kind of meditation or ritual simply because thats ussually done when it involves a large amount of people.
Aaaand battle meditation is not Sith magic. Good job not addressing the point.
But fine, I can name an example where a huge amount of people were controlled without meditation: Kun's control of the Senate. QED.
Just because nobody else is shown to have accomplished it does not mean, therefore, that Exar Kun did not accomplish it. Your argument falls apart on the basis of no evidence for your side whatsoever.
He still had that amulet of his, he could have just blasted Ulic away, why didn't he?
By that nitpicking which you claim to be logic, why didn't he strafe the city of Cinnagar in Naga Sadow's battleship, or blow up the nearby star with it? He had that at the time, too. "Oh my God, he must not have been able to because he didn't try to!"
Nice job, you fell right into that one.
The three Jedi Kreia kills just die, Odan does not die instantly, its not an instakill attack its never defined as such its just a powerful attack that killed him. Thats what it is, just because it happens to kill him pretty fast doesn't mean its an instakill attack.
And the three Jedi die screaming/groaning. My God, they must not have died instantly because they were able to make sounds!
Sorry, no. Both attacks are instakills. Odan died within one panel. Nitpicking isn't going to change it.
Like your controlling the Chancellor assumption, when you knew better then anybody else here that the Chancellor could still move? Don't give me this shit, you are the biggest Kun fanboy we have, and if anybody else would use your logic for a none TOTJ character you would be all over it.
Except that my assumption is based on and does not contradict the source material, whereas your alternative ignore it.
Obviously, the chancellor was under Kun's control. Why? Because the narration makes that clear. Apparently he was released from Kun's power as Kun ascended the podium because we see that he's free to move.
How that's hard to understand is beyond me.
By the way, calling me a fanboy is not an argument. I've been running rings around you for some time now. Come up with something better.
Except for the fact that we know the ancients talked about things, if Ragnos crowned Exar Kun then we know he was part of the Sith group that talked together, as some of the Sith said to Nadd that Kun was ready. Unless there is a reason to assume these things would have been changed 4000 years later its proper to assume that they were once again the same Sith, possibly lead by Ragnos. And really I don't see why you care about this, what does it matter who crowned them or who said Sidious could join the ancients and take a place there. What does it matter? What would it change? It doesn't say jack shit about power its just a nice feat, so who the hell cares anyways...
We know it for a fact? No, we don't. We have one instance of an ancient Sith spirit speaking to a spirit that was not an ancient Sith.
One shaky instance does not a pattern make.
Ergo, there is no evidence for any dead "sith group" that make collective decisions. There's evidence to the opposite, however - Ajunta Pall didn't seem to have contact with anyone for many millenia. As well, when Marka Ragnos crowns Exar Kun he does not reference any other Sith and his dialogue indicates that he's made the decision by himself. QED.
I'm sure, do you actually have them and did you actually see it?
Ask someone that owns secondary source material. I remember Glentract stating it.
By that logic I can say that Ragnos never fought anybody because the Sith wouldn't want to destroy themselves and that he had 100 years of peace during his reign. The sith were backstabbing bastards that wanted to kill each other at every chance, the amulets if they would work against each other would be a perfect killing mechanism, they were in war with each other anyways, so they would have used it if it was needed, and they would have had a defence against it.What that defence was I don't know, but because we don't have anything about that we must simply assume the most simple of explanations is the right one, they blocked the attacks with the force.
Except not, because I only stated in my theory that the Ancient Sith would not have used their amulets on each other as Exar Kun did to the Sith Wyrm because they may know it would ensure M.A.D.
Nice reading comprehension. Show me where I stated that they didn't fight each other.
We have nothing to base your ridiculous assumption on. It is just as likely they didn't use the amulets in that manner for any number of reasons, such as: the amulets can also absorb blasts, the M.A.D. theory, etc.
He never used the amulet again in such a manner, he never used the second amulet in such a manner. If he could control it why not? Maybe because he couldn't? Maybe because he was afraid he could destroy it. Except for your assumption we have nothing to say he could control it, when he says he couldn't and then proceeds to never use it again.
Illustrious answered this well enough:
Originally posted by Illustrious
Does it matter that Luke controlled a black hole once? Does it matter that Luke could barely cloak a ship without getting tired in DN? Does it matter that Luke could use Emerald lightning once?This logic is bullshit, Fishy, and if you have [b]any respect
for debating conventions, you'd know it.Even as a newly converted dark-sider, he was still able to control it. So why exactly wouldn't he be able to control it when he has gained a whole crapload of knowledge and power?
And Luke can use emerald lightning? Okay.
And a look at his very hand shows that there was NO DAMAGE whatsoever.
And then seconds later, he uses the amulet to destroy Freedon Nadd.
So by your logic, Luke cloaking a ship will never happen again, because he was really tired after doing it.
Uhh... no. A Kun in battle said that he couldn't control it, that he could only direct it.
The only mention the narrator says is that "with each pulse of his anger, it doubles in power."
In fact, he is shown to be perfectly fine immediately after the Sith beast was destroyed.
Yep, he feared the power so much that he used it again on Nadd, and he found/built another damn amulet![/B]
IKC, I read your hilarious debate today between Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos, where you were trying to prove that it could go either way. I'm glad you're flexing his nuts so that I don't actually have to read the comic myself. However you've still failed to prove how Kun would defeat DN Luke in a 1 on 1 battle. While youre doing that tell me why Kun isn't inferior to Sadow, Kressh, Nadd, even Ragnos, and EVEN Artoo
Originally posted by Borbarad
What ?
Yeah...Luke just tooled an army of a race which was in constant combat for millenia, has bio-engineered bodies (and some of them are wearing lightsaber resistant weapons and armor) and is nearly [b]immune to the force. Kun could have reproduced that ?And Luke had nobody to challenge him ?
- Vader and Sidious in ROTJ were both superior to him
- Joruus appeared to be superior to him (Thrawn trilogy)
- he faced a clone of himself (!) - no challenge ?
- DE Sidious was in fact superior to him in terms of force use
- he had to deal with Kun and Kyp Durron equipped with some nice bits of Kun's own knowledge
- that is followed by the likes of Hethrir and Desann
- now there is an entire army of YV's (see above) on top of that
- and Raynar with the combined force potential of the entire population of 375 planets as backupBut Luke had no challenge ? Where was the challenge for Kun who redicously tooled anybody in his time. Did Kun have an equal ? I hope you don't want compare Vodo or Odan to DE Sidious, Kun's own spirit or somebody like Raynar.
Luke did teach his students everything he knows himself. He's a Jedi Master and not a Sith Lord that keeps knowledge hidden. And we see that some of Luke's force feats (or at least nearly every force power he used) could be used by his students as well but not on the same level.
Except Kun didn't exactly "drain" the Massasi - they sacrificed their own lives for him. That's a little difference. I don't see why Luke with Kun's knowledge of the ritual Kun used shouldn't be able to do the same. On the other handside: Can Kun control black holes, make planets invisible (and undedectable even for force users) or use instakill attacks against beings which are nearly immune to force attacks ? Unlikely.
And I know Kun invented his own style and his own weapon type. That puts him on a very high level in terms of lightsaber duelling. Nobody is going to deny that. But could he move so fast that even trained Jedi couldn't see his physical movements any longer ? As it seems Vodo and Ulic were both able to parry his strikes (so they still saw him, right ?).
He could use attacks on beings that are nearly immune to force attacks but he can't do the same on force users who are - at best - able to block said attacks ? We have seen 900-year-old Yoda having at least some minor problems with force lightning (which is certainly no "instakill" ability) but you think that somebody who will look relatively "untrained" compared to a 900-year-old Jedi Master / Grandmaster of the Jedi Order can block instakill abilities or other force attacks coming from Luke "force god" Skywalker ? [/B]
1) We have no idea just how powerful, the Ancient Jedi Masters were, they could or couldn't have defeated DE Sidious, Raynar and etc. Also you can't assume that because Kun tooled them, Sid and Ray would also do so, there is no proof that Kun is either slightly, or Leagues above both Raynar and Sidious, arguing feats for either, makes your points moot.
2) Your point? So if Luke can replicate Kun's feats or its likely, wheres the evidence that Kun can't do the same? You're speculating on what Luke can do, and you're speculating that Kun cannot do the same. Naga Sadow created those beasts themselves, Kun's amulet sliced them into meatballs, however wheres the proof that the beasts cant resist force attacks? You have no proof to prove likewise, you argue that the Vong are immune to most force attacks, but you cannot prove that Sadow's creatures aren't immune to force powers.
3) Again, Luke is a Jedi Master, true, but he does not teach every last thing he knows, there are some powers, he keeps to himself, his student's while replicate heaps of his feats, it does not mean he would teach them every last thing.
4) Again, who said that Luke moved his saber with that kind of speed? Remind us what time period and the amount of sith around? Certianly in a time of constant War where the Sith overpower the Jedi, the Jedi are adept at saber combat, and whilst Ulic stalemated a weaker Kun, it was quite obvious, that Kun toyed with Vodo, whilst Luke faces a major threat of armies, Kun has never been placed in such a situation, which obviously puts Luke's feats on a grander scale.
5) Sidious, specialized in force lightning/storm, and yet you're comparing Yoda, a PT Jedi, who was generally much more peaceful than a Jedi in Vodo's time, who saw quite a few wars in his lifetime. Might i remind you, that the TOTJ Jedi possesed powerful techniques such as blinding Jedi/Sith from the force, however we never see, the PT Jedi perform any amazing force powers, nor did they ever need to, the Sith were scattered and the galaxy was peaceful.
Originally posted by tdtd
IKC, I read your hilarious debate today between Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos, where you were trying to prove that it could go either way. I'm glad you're flexing his nuts so that I don't actually have to read the comic myself. However you've still failed to prove how Kun would defeat DN Luke in a 1 on 1 battle. While youre doing that tell me why Kun isn't inferior to Sadow, Kressh, Nadd, even Ragnos, and EVEN Artoo
There's no need to prove otherwise, IKC has since changed his views, although he favours Kun to a certain extent, a debate of that time cannot count for what he thinks today. Also whilst in can be speculated that DN Luke is superior to Kun, no'one has proved otherwise, therefore logic dictates that the fight between Luke and Kun can go either way.