Originally posted by TheKahn
These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.1. Omega Effect
First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:
"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."
Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.
If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.
Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.
For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.
Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.
Actually, you could use this theory to explain probably any superpower.
Everett's "many worlds" hypothesis was an alternate explanation for quantum-mechanical behavior. Quantum mechanics deals with probabilities. Infinite probabilities. The Silver Surfer, for example, could really be influencing quantum wavefunctions, seeking and splicing into place the desired probability-result (or parallel reality), no matter how remote. "Power cosmic" is just the term cosmic entities use when talking about this ability.
I understand this is how the Scarlet Witch now operates.
Superman can fly because he is able to invoke that particular probability/reality where all the atoms in his body vibrate in the same direction at the same time.
Banner turns into Hulk because his subconscious has found and spliced into place that probability/reality where virtual particles "solidify" out of the quantum foam, forming 100s of lbs of muscle mass.
The Human Torch, tactile telekinesis, you can go on and on: each power is a result of engaging the right reality, no matter how remote the probability.
Why do some powers come as themes; for example, why does Spider-Man have a spider's powers? Being bitten by the radioactive/geneered spider kicked into gear Parker's subconcious ability to influence quantum wavefunctions. Why spider powers? Well, the event was triggered by being bitten by a spider: there was also emotional impact.
How is all this done? I'm tempted to say "psionically," but this is just a fancy word for "psychic," and sometimes erroneously used in parallel with "mental."
A more neutral term would be "psiconscious," as in, conscious of psi, the term physicists use for the quantum wavefunction (and--coincidently?-- what parapsychologists use for "psychic" phenomena).
Just a thought.
Originally posted by Mindship
Just a thought.
And a damn good one at that. You could use that to explain nearly any superpower, but I tend to accept the explanation that is given in most cases. Its just Darkseid's Omega Effect is so undefined and versatile that it may require such a unique explanation while perhaps Wolverine's powers would not.
This is mostly an exericse in speculation. Any explanation is just as valid as anyother as we don't really have the definitive answers.
Personally, I think it has something to do with wearing underwear outside of your pants.
Originally posted by Mindship
Actually, you could use this theory to explain probably any superpower.Everett's "many worlds" hypothesis was an alternate explanation for quantum-mechanical behavior. Quantum mechanics deals with probabilities. Infinite probabilities. The Silver Surfer, for example, could really be influencing quantum wavefunctions, seeking and splicing into place the desired probability-result (or parallel reality), no matter how remote. "Power cosmic" is just the term cosmic entities use when talking about this ability.
I understand this is how the Scarlet Witch now operates.
Superman can fly because he is able to invoke that particular probability/reality where all the atoms in his body vibrate in the same direction at the same time.
Banner turns into Hulk because his subconscious has found and spliced into place that probability/reality where virtual particles "solidify" out of the quantum foam, forming 100s of lbs of muscle mass.
The Human Torch, tactile telekinesis, you can go on and on: each power is a result of engaging the right reality, no matter how remote the probability.
Why do some powers come as themes; for example, why does Spider-Man have a spider's powers? Being bitten by the radioactive/geneered spider kicked into gear Parker's subconcious ability to influence quantum wavefunctions. Why spider powers? Well, the event was triggered by being bitten by a spider: there was also emotional impact.
How is all this done? I'm tempted to say "psionically," but this is just a fancy word for "psychic," and sometimes erroneously used in parallel with "mental."
A more neutral term would be "psiconscious," as in, conscious of psi, the term physicists use for the quantum wavefunction (and--coincidently?-- what parapsychologists use for "psychic" phenomena).
Just a thought.
nice.
back to power cosmic -- ss HAS been shown manipulating the quantum level of the universe, so there is that possibility of which you're discussing.
gs, if galactus was supplied energy by 'creation', (in fact, wasn't he 'saved' by the pf?) then wouldn't it stand to reason that the power g wields is simply a manifestation of the pf? which in turn would make ss's power an extension of that? pf seems to be the 'basest' level. in that sense, all power should be a derivative of it, with varying degrees of separation. power primordial would be another insistence of this. what really IS the difference between power cosmic and power primordial? i don't think there is one. i think it's rather the degree of control the user has over this creation force/universal force and the degree of access he/she has over it.
i seem to recall something about galactus and evolution. i'll have to check up. celestials place is pretty well known and you recounted it well. i do like the notion that g is self-imposing a limit on his powers -- perhaps until he overcomes the 'remaining humanity' left within him? hmmm . . ..?
good stuff so far, gents. plenty to think about. 😉
the anti-life equation, as written in seven soldiers (of victory): mister miracle #3.
the anti-life equation = loneliness + alienation + fear + despair / self-worth / mockery / condemnation / misunderstanding * guilt * shame * failure * judgment
N = Y where Y = hope and N = folly.
love = lies
life = death
self = dark side
self = dark side
self = dark side
how does that stack up against creation-altering forces in both universes? well, it seems like a good way for a reimagined darkseid to gather some plastic people, devoid of any glimmer of a silver lining, to his side. ["it's all just a pointless %@*$# mess. we're all so ugly and stupid and doomed. everyone hates everyone else."] probably doesn't really mean jack, compared to various other forces.
Originally posted by leonidas
nice.back to power cosmic -- ss HAS been shown manipulating the quantum level of the universe, so there is that possibility of which you're discussing.
gs, if galactus was supplied energy by 'creation', (in fact, wasn't he 'saved' by the pf?) then wouldn't it stand to reason that the power g wields is simply a manifestation of the pf? which in turn would make ss's power an extension of that? pf seems to be the 'basest' level. in that sense, all power should be a derivative of it, with varying degrees of separation. power primordial would be another insistence of this. what really IS the difference between power cosmic and power primordial? i don't think there is one. i think it's rather the degree of control the user has over this creation force/universal force and the degree of access he/she has over it.
Thats what I'm thinking. Maybe on some level the power cosmic, PF, and power primordial are some how connected if not just different aspects of the same fundamental force.
Originally posted by TheKahn
Thats what I'm thinking. Maybe on some level the power cosmic, PF, and power primordial are some how connected if not just different aspects of the same fundamental force.
But Leos saying something slightly different, cos we already know that the Phoenix Force is literally the power of creation for Marvel so it isnt an aspect of a fundamental force, it IS that fundamental force which would make things like power primordial and other cosmic power sources of the universe derivatives of the Phoenix Force.
Originally posted by Disappear
the anti-life equation, as written in seven soldiers (of victory): mister miracle #3.the anti-life equation = loneliness + alienation + fear + despair / self-worth / mockery / condemnation / misunderstanding * guilt * shame * failure * judgment
N = Y where Y = hope and N = folly.
love = lies
life = death
self = dark side
self = dark side
self = dark sidehow does that stack up against creation-altering forces in both universes? well, it seems like a good way for a reimagined darkseid to gather some plastic people, devoid of any glimmer of a silver lining, to his side. ["it's all just a pointless %@*$# mess. we're all so ugly and stupid and doomed. everyone hates everyone else."] probably doesn't really mean jack, compared to various other forces.
that's interesting. when orion wielded it, he effortlessly took over the earth, new genesis and apokalips. it's command was so absolute, that orion actually commanded darkseid to kill himself and he was about to before there was an intervention from outside that prevented him. he even used it to destroy the ecruos, a multiversal entity that was devouring the tree of knowledge and was set to destroy all the universes. the ALE was shown to be a source of supreme order. when it was transferred to the ecruos (the source's 'great enemy' and the supreme agent of chaos) the ALE and ecruos sort of cancelled each other and wiped each other out.
the only limit i was able to see to the ALE was that the beings it commanded needed to be living. the ecruos and its demons were . . . outside of life and unaffected. not sure exactly what the term 'living' means as relates to the ALE though . . . while he had it, metron said orion might be the most powerful entity in the universes however . . . for what that's worth.
mignola and starlin (??) had a totally different take on the ALE in cosmic odyssey -- it was actually an entity of ENORMOUS but undetermined power but it destroyed dimensions and realities and was set to destroy the dc universe before it was finally trapped by darkseid et al.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But Leos saying something slightly different, cos we already know that the Phoenix Force is literally the power of creation for Marvel so it isnt an aspect of a fundamental force, it IS that fundamental force which would make things like power primordial and other cosmic power sources of the universe derivatives of the Phoenix Force.
😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But Leos saying something slightly different, cos we already know that the Phoenix Force is literally the power of creation for Marvel so it isnt an aspect of a fundamental force, it IS that fundamental force which would make things like power primordial and other cosmic power sources of the universe derivatives of the Phoenix Force.
More 2-cents worth...
My impression of the Phoenix Force is that it is an archetypal force: a divinely creative force. This would place it a notch or so higher than a psionic/psiconscious force. Why? Building upon my earlier 2-cents worth: psi involves manipulation of quantum wavefunctions, whereas the Phoenix Force actually produces the quantum wavefunctions (ie, gives rise to the underlying quantum "ocean" upon which "roll the waves"😉.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But Leos saying something slightly different, cos we already know that the Phoenix Force is literally the power of creation for Marvel so it isnt an aspect of a fundamental force, it IS that fundamental force which would make things like power primordial and other cosmic power sources of the universe derivatives of the Phoenix Force.
Oh, I get it what he's saying now
Originally posted by leonidas
so does that mean the pf is outside causality? sounds as though you are saying the pf is outside all the rules of the game. i'm not sure that's been born out . . .
It might be better to say it is "transcosmic." It does not follow physical/cosmic laws (including quantum-mechanical), but rather divine principles of existence. Now, what that means is open to interpretation, though some familiarity with mystical schools of thought (eg, Kabbalah, Upanishads) may shed some light.
It would also depend on how far up the archetypal hierarchy the PF is said to go. That is, is it the creative force of the Marvel universe or the Marvel multiverse? It would be safe to say that it wouldn't be the creative force for the entire Ominiverse cuz--DC's possible objections aside--that would mean it is a manifestation of Final archetype, which in mystical literature is generally interpreted to mean God in His highest form that is perceivable, wherein He is perceived as an entity separate from the rest of creation.
Originally posted by Mindship
More 2-cents worth...My impression of the Phoenix Force is that it is an archetypal force: a divinely creative force. This would place it a notch or so higher than a psionic/psiconscious force. Why? Building upon my earlier 2-cents worth: psi involves manipulation of quantum wavefunctions, whereas the Phoenix Force actually produces the quantum wavefunctions (ie, gives rise to the underlying quantum "ocean" upon which "roll the waves"😉.
So Mindship are you saying that the PF is the actual agent of creation (by that I mean a being made by God for the purpose of bringing the physical marvel universe into existance) or is it mearly a by-product of God's creating the universe (owing its existance more to the way God created the universe rather than being responsible for it)?
With the first it would seem that the PF should be beyond all of the physical and scientific laws of the natural universe and posses a more devine nature.
While the second suggests that it is fundamentally a cosmic force that is defined or limited to aspects of the physical universe.
Originally posted by Mindship
It might be better to say it is "transcosmic." It does not follow physical/cosmic laws (including quantum-mechanical), but rather divine principles of existence. Now, what that means is open to interpretation, though some familiarity with mystical schools of thought (eg, Kabbalah, Upanishads) may shed some light.It would also depend on how far up the archetypal hierarchy the PF is said to go. That is, is it the creative force of the Marvel universe or the Marvel multiverse? It would be safe to say that it wouldn't be the creative force for the entire Ominiverse cuz--DC's possible objections aside--that would mean it is a manifestation of Final archetype, which in mystical literature is generally interpreted to mean God in His highest form that is perceivable, wherein He is perceived as an entity separate from the rest of creation.
you're essentially saying what i was saying earlier. your 'placement on the archetypal hierarchy' is MY degrees of separation from a source. it's long been discussed by gs and others (whirly . . .) where the pf originates. gs has shown there are allusions to it being a 'divine source' but nothing conclusive, nor can it be said to be the 'power of god'.
it is very analagous to the source, though i believe there HAS been some on-panel evidence stating that the source truly IS an aspect of 'god'. it's why i asked the question earlier: is the source the single greatest energy in comics?
i suppose the hotu could turn out to be something similar, but so little was explained in regards to it that it is hard to even speculate about its origins.
Originally posted by TheKahn
So Mindship are you saying that the PF is the actual agent of creation (by that I mean a being made by God for the purpose of bringing the physical marvel universe into existance) or is it mearly a by-product of God's creating the universe (owing its existance more to the way God created the universe rather than being responsible for it)?With the first it would seem that the PF should be beyond all of the physical and scientific laws of the natural universe and posses a more devine nature.
While the second suggests that it is fundamentally a cosmic force that is defined or limited to aspects of the physical universe.
i think the last statement you made is the one most in line with what we know of the pf. in a wanda thread, i asked the question: could wanda create a universe WITHOUT a pf? no one really ever attempted to answer the question. another question might be: could the pf create a universe where 2 + 2 = 3? could wanda alter the universe in such a way to eliminate the pf and make 2 + 2 = 3?
hmmm . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
i think the last statement you made is the one most in line with what we know of the pf. in a wanda thread, i asked the question: could wanda create a universe WITHOUT a pf? no one really ever attempted to answer the question. another question might be: could the pf create a universe where 2 + 2 = 3? could wanda alter the universe in such a way to eliminate the pf and make 2 + 2 = 3?hmmm . . .
In my opinion, she could and she couldn't.
What I mean by that is that she could create a universe without a PF and where 2 + 2 =3.
However, if you assume that in the main Marvel universe the PF plays a fundamentally important role and that mathmatical priniples that govern it (such as 2+2=4) are key for the universe as we know it to exist, then the universe she could create would different on a basic level.
If she wanted to create a universe similar to the main marvel universe, she would need to create some kind of mechanism to serve the role that the PF serves and the basic rules that govern that universe would have to be very near the same.
So Mindship are you saying that the PF is the actual agent of creation (by that I mean a being made by God for the purpose of bringing the physical marvel universe into existance) or is it mearly a by-product of God's creating the universe (owing its existance more to the way God created the universe rather than being responsible for it)?
With the first it would seem that the PF should be beyond all of the physical and scientific laws of the natural universe and posses a more devine nature.
While the second suggests that it is fundamentally a cosmic force that is defined or limited to aspects of the physical universe.
I am tending toward the first interpretation. But it may be that the complexity of reality at the archetypal level is beyond our ability to describe at the cognitive/verbal level.
you're essentially saying what i was saying earlier. your 'placement on the archetypal hierarchy' is MY degrees of separation from a source. it's long been discussed by gs and others (whirly . . .) where the pf originates. gs has shown there are allusions to it being a 'divine source' but nothing conclusive, nor can it be said to be the 'power of god'.
Yes, your degrees of separation is another way of putting it...and I am very familiar with the discussions regarding the PF between GS, Whirl and others (arguably some of the best debates in all of KMC). As for where it ultimately originates: until Marvel says something defiinitive, I guess it is open to interpretation.