Dealt with:
Know your stuff kid. 😉
Dealt with:
Know your stuff kid. 😉
Re: Re: LT is superior to Phoenix Force
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A rubbish argument based on an old scan which has been dealt with many times before youngster. Youre bringing nothing new to the table so there is no need for me to tear apart your post. 😉
First of all, that scan shows part of the relationship between PF and LT. It's not a matter of power. It's a matter of role and function. The president has more power than any individual of the Supreme Court, but he has to abide by their laws. End of. His desires don't matter. He is Commander-In-Chief, so he controls the military. All of his military might means nothing if the Court says his actions or decisions are illegal. Saying that the LT wouldn't allow the PF to return could be for a number of reasons, including work needed to be done elsewhere (as shown in the scan: "And, although the Phoenix Force feels denied...it also knows that, for the sake of the multiverse it must today heed the Tribunal's wishes." Note also that the LT isn't "wielding" the PF. They are having a conversation, nothing more, nothing less.
Second, and I wish people would understand this (so spread the word), Thanos DID NOT destroy the multivers with THOTU. He stated repeatedly, both in Marvel: The End and his subsequent series, that he destroyed his universe, his reality. Nothing suggests that he destroyed the multiverse. Warlock would not have been there had Thanos destroyed all of the multiverse. Thanos did NOT make it to TOAA and he did NOT defeat it. Reality was restored due to Thanos forsaking the power.
As far as the IG is concerned...The LT never stated that he didn't know if he could take the IG from Warlock. He said that taking the IG from Warlock by force would lay waste to that reality (check out WTIF #1), not that he couldn't do it. Also, the LT chose to not intervene in the IG because there would not have been a mystical imbalance. The opposite was true with THOTU.
If you want to use Korvac as an example of power: The LT sealed off that universe because he couldn't deal with him. When Korvac confronted GOTG, Phoenix transported Korvac to another dimension, and that IS in continuity.
Re: Re: Re: LT is superior to Phoenix Force
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
As far as the IG is concerned...The LT never stated that he didn't know if he could take the IG from Warlock. He said that taking the IG from Warlock by force would lay waste to that reality (check out WTIF #1), not that he couldn't do it. Also, the LT chose to not intervene in the IG because there would not have been a mystical imbalance. The opposite was true with THOTU.If you want to use Korvac as an example of power: The LT sealed off that universe because he couldn't deal with him. When Korvac confronted GOTG, Phoenix transported Korvac to another dimension, and that IS in continuity.
LT said no such thing. He said that the universe would come to a terrible end in Adams hands and it is his duty to protect it from such threats. Adam then says that to protect the universe from him LT would have to try and forcibly take the IG from him. LT said such a confrontation would destroy 616.
Who would've been the victor was not claimed however it was earlier strongly inferred in the issue by LT that he didnt know if his power was enough to stand up to the IG. LT has no feats to give us an answer. Therefore LT conclusively is not by canon above the IG. How he weighs up against it is up in the air.
How Giraud a Phoenix host fares against anything is irrelevant. He is not a true avatar, he does not equate to Jean Grey.
Re: Re: Re: Re: LT is superior to Phoenix Force
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT said no such thing. He said that the universe would come to a terrible end in Adams hands and it is his duty to protect it from such threats. Adam then says that to protect the universe from him LT would have to try and forcibly take the IG from him. LT said such a confrontation would destroy 616.Who would've been the victor was not claimed however it was earlier strongly inferred in the issue by LT that he didnt know if his power was enough to stand up to the IG. LT has no feats to give us an answer. Therefore LT conclusively is not by canon above the IG. How he weighs up against it is up in the air.
How Giraud a Phoenix host fares against anything is irrelevant. He is not a true avatar, he does not equate to Jean Grey.
And Giraud...the starter of this thread didn't specify which Phoenix, if a particular avatar, or the force itself. It's your opinion that it doesn't matter. It's mine that it does. The scan showed was Rachel, not Jean, so are you saying that this scan, a large foundation of his argument, doesn't matter because it's Rachel, not Jean? Once again, that's your opinion. As far as I'm concerned, Giraud was Phoenix. He wielded the PF. Your opinion of what constitutes a true avatar is secondary to the fact that he did wield the PF.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LT is superior to Phoenix Force
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
You have the issue, so you can post scans. If not, then I'll post them when I get home from work. The fact of the matter is that the LT DID state that it would lay waste to that reality. He then asked Warlock if that was the type of God he was. The only individual that questioned the LT's might in that instance was the only one unfamiliar with him: Warlock. When Warlock disrupted the proceedings the LT restored order with a snap of his fingers. It was then that he told Warlock that his power came from above, and Warlock said that that was an assumption yet to be proven. The inference was something that a reader would have to search for, because the LT explicitly shows that his power could counteract the IG in that instance. Note that after he had handed down his decision and told Warlock that a battle would destroy the reality, he didn't say that he couldn't take it. He left the choice with Warlock.
Im not having this argument with you CF. Its been posted before and in a much better way. It was still squashed:
How LT stands up against the IG is not known. He is not conclusively above it, he has no feats to prove that and it was inferred by his conversation with Adam that LT didnt know how his power would fare against the IG.
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And Giraud...the starter of this thread didn't specify which Phoenix, if a particular avatar, or the force itself. It's your opinion that it doesn't matter. It's mine that it does. The scan showed was Rachel, not Jean, so are you saying that this scan, a large foundation of his argument, doesn't matter because it's Rachel, not Jean? Once again, that's your opinion. As far as I'm concerned, Giraud was Phoenix. He wielded the PF. Your opinion of what constitutes a true avatar is secondary to the fact that he did wield the PF.
We're debating about the relative power of the Phoenix compared to LT. Of course it matters what incarnation of Phoenix we're talking about due to their differing power levels. A little common sense would help. ✅
The Phoenix in the scan was not Rachel, it was the Phoenix entity she is bonded to in that reality. Big difference.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
LT is indeed superior to the phoenix force. he cancelled out the power of the IG with a single snap of the finger and added that his power came from ON HIGH, n he represented foces that dwarfed the power of the infnite gauntlett.
He cancelled out a power blast from the IG. A blast that was not full power given the close range and the effect it had on the abstracts. That action does not prove LT is beyond the IG.
In a conversation with Adam it was inferred that LT didnt know how his power would fare against the IG. He has no feats to give us an answer to that query he is by canon conclusively not above the IG. We do not know how he would fare. The scans are in the link i posted.
The IG serves as a conduit for the powers of a universe. It allows a user to tap into universal forces. Phoenix held a universe in her hand, Phoenix is the power which brings about a universe. LTs actions do not place him above Phoenix im afraid. 🙁
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He cancelled out a power blast from the IG. A blast that was not full power given the close range and the effect it had on the abstracts. That action does not prove LT is beyond the IG.In a conversation with Adam it was inferred that LT didnt know how his power would fare against the IG. He has no feats to give us an answer to that query he is by canon conclusively not above the IG. We do not know how he would fare. The scans are in the link i posted.
The IG serves as a conduit for the powers of a universe. It allows a user to tap into universal forces. Phoenix held a universe in her hand, Phoenix is the power which brings about a universe. LTs actions do not place him above Phoenix im afraid. 🙁
nope. he WAS initially unsure of his power but that was settled when he cancelled the power of the IG, and later commented that he represented forces which dwarfed the might of the infinite gauntlett. oh n btw, i thought you were intially of the view that phoenix is the power which brought about the MULTIVERSE, why the change of heart gs{ambiguity}
and its only ur baseless oppinion that he is not above the infinite gauntlett, phoenix is the force that brings about the birth and death of a universe, a powerful abstract, but it has no role in the realms of eternity, infinity and death, or order and chaos. her only great feat is holding a universe, LT is the protector of the MULTIVERSE, n knows the incantation of oblivion which can destroy any universe{greater feat than holding in hands} also as we have seen in the past{when the phoenix was NOT the creator but just a minor abstract representing desire and life unborn} ALL of the major abstracts in the marvel universe{eternity who was sumthin like the phoenix of old comics} were under the power of LT and his passed judgement had to be followed by alll abstracts, its not very different for the universal phoenix, she might be powerful but she is not extremely powerful than the other major abstracts combined, eternity, infinity, death, chaos, order, unbeing, hunger, abraxas, chaos and order combined are still greater or at the very least equal to current phoenix force. she is thus under the same multiversal rules as the others and is hence under LT.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
nope. he WAS initially unsure of his power but that was settled when he cancelled the power of the IG, and later commented that he represented forces which dwarfed the might of the infinite gauntlett. oh n btw, i thought you were intially of the view that phoenix is the power which brought about the MULTIVERSE, why the change of heart gs{ambiguity}and its only ur baseless oppinion that he is not above the infinite gauntlett, phoenix is the force that brings about the birth and death of a universe, a powerful abstract, but it has no role in the realms of eternity, infinity and death, or order and chaos. her only great feat is holding a universe, LT is the protector of the MULTIVERSE, n knows the incantation of oblivion which can destroy any universe{greater feat than holding in hands} also as we have seen in the past{when the phoenix was NOT the creator but just a minor abstract representing desire and life unborn} ALL of the major abstracts in the marvel universe{eternity who was sumthin like the phoenix of old comics} were under the power of LT and his passed judgement had to be followed by alll abstracts, its not very different for the universal phoenix, she might be powerful but she is not extremely powerful than the other major abstracts combined, eternity, infinity, death, chaos, order, unbeing, hunger, abraxas, chaos and order combined are still greater or at the very least equal to current phoenix force. she is thus under the same multiversal rules as the others and is hence under LT.
Load of unsupported rubbish which doesnt warrant a proper reply. 🙁
I'll wait for someone worthy to come along. 😄
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LT is superior to Phoenix Force
Im not having this argument with you CF. Its been posted before and in a much better way. It was still squashed:
How LT stands up against the IG is not known. He is not conclusively above it, he has no feats to prove that and it was inferred by his conversation with Adam that LT didnt know how his power would fare against the IG.
He cancelled out a power blast from the IG. A blast that was not full power given the close range and the effect it had on the abstracts. That action does not prove LT is beyond the IG.
In a conversation with Adam it was inferred that LT didnt know how his power would fare against the IG. He has no feats to give us an answer to that query he is by canon conclusively not above the IG. We do not know how he would fare. The scans are in the link i posted.
He cancelled out a power blast from the IG. A blast that was not full power given the close range and the effect it had on the abstracts. That action does not prove LT is beyond the IG.
We're debating about the relative power of the Phoenix compared to LT. Of course it matters what incarnation of Phoenix we're talking about due to their differing power levels. A little common sense would help.
Silly, very silly. Please acknowledge the thread title.
My God...
You know what, I'm not going to drop another long drawn out essay on this subject. I'm just going to say what I've said all along in this many faceted Phoenix debate:
Purpose doesn't equal power.
Living Tribunal and The Phoenix Force (the actual Force) are peers, and their roles are supplementary.
Tribunal doesn't have any feats because he's not an active adventuring hero. He simply suits a specific purpose in the multiverse and only appears when deemed absolutely necessary, which quite frankly is not that often because the heroes and villains balance eachother out for the most part so he doesn't need to get involved.
Phoenix Hosts and Avatars have active rolls in a universe. Hell, they're on the rosters of super hero teams. Of course they'll have more feats than Tribunal. Tribunal isn't an Avenger, X-Man, Defenders, Thunderbolt, or Evil Mutant.
The same concept goes for these comparisons of Spectre from DC and Tribunal. The Spectre has served actively on a superhero team, he's going to have more feats because he has more appearances and is more active.
Tribunal is not going to have as many feats, he only acts when absolutely necessary, and there is a large span of checks and balances, on a universal scale, set in place before a situation escalates to the realm of LT's jurisdiction and he has to step in and bring order.
Please stop.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LT is superior to Phoenix Force
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And this is based on what? First of all you mean implied, not inferred. Infer is what the reader does, imply is what the writer does. Second of all, no where does the LT state that his power is not greater than the IG. I'm not digging through a 17 page thread to find your scans. If you want to post them here, feel free, but until I see where the LT says that he CANNOT take the IG from Warlock, that his power is LESS THAN the IG, it's bogus. You can infer anything you want to from that issue. He didn't say it. Much like people infer that the chaos wave was directly caused by Wanda. If it ain't on-panel, it don't count. Infer all you want. He didn't say it. All of what you said is based on assumptions of what you saw, not what was said.
The scans are readily available in the aforementioned thread, a thread i have posted a link to. I will not go out of my way to post them again for your convenience. Whether you visit the thread or dont it makes no difference to me, your argument is poor.
LT has never defeated a being beyond the IG. LT has never displayed an output of power beyond the IG. It was suggested in the issue that LT didnt know how his power would stand up to the IGs. He said he was determining if he had the power, Adam then finished off his sentence and said to wrest the gauntlet from me. They then glared at each other. It was heavily suggested my friend, by that and the fact that LT said a confrontation with Adam would destroy a reality. The victor of such an outcome is unknown. It was left up in the air. Noone can claim LT is beyond the IG because he has no on panel showing to conclusively prove that. End of.
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And this is the same source that powers Giraud. What's your point? If you want to be such a stickler, the avatars don't really matter at all, because he's speaking of the PF itself. You can't have it both ways. Either you include various incarnations, or you include none.
Jean Grey as stated in Classic X-men is formed from the actual Phoenix Force. That is why she is the White Crown Phoenix, the closest thing Phoenix has to a human form. The one true avatar. This was again confirmed in Endsong and the Phoenix Forces latest bio. With that in mind when talking about the Phoenix Force, im quite right to mention Jean and dismiss references to mere hosts. Consider yourself educated.
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I stand corrected. This changes very little, however. If one is going to have a discussion about an entity with multiple incarnations, those various incarnations need to be discussed, or the perspective is obviously very skewed. To say that Jean held the universe in her hand without considering what others have done leads to an illogical argument with an unsound foundation if one is discussing the PF and what it has done.
It changes everything my friend. The thread is about the Phoenix Force, therefore we should be referencing Jean Grey and the Phoenix entity. The actions of the hosts are irrelevant my friend and are not representative of the Phoenix/Jean Grey and what it is capable of. Good try tho 😉