LT is superior to Phoenix Force

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know where youre coming from with the feats thing however when weighing up cosmics who both have roles integral to Marvel creation, your way doesnt work and feats are the only way we can decide on a victor. If one of the characters doesnt have the feats because of the nature of the character and its role then for lack of a better phrase its tough luck.

While my theories were more logical i must admit that these people who im aiming this course of action at were correct that they were not canon. There was no avoiding that regardless of what was suggested and i can and have learned to admit that. By looking at their own theories and applying the same terms ive highlighted their hypocrisy and double standards time and time again and theyve ultimately come off worse. Even with that done i cant now go back to just accepting the suggested and treating it as canon because after all that been said that would then make me a hypocrite. 😂

Looks like a catch 22 all around.

Eh, oh well.

I've never been one to let the opinions of others disuade me from my own logical deduction.

I see LT and the Phoenix Force as supplementary peers, with Phoenix's role establishing the necessity of Tribunal's role.

The power levels of either has never been specifically quantified nor the limits clearly defined, so I have no reason to beleive either would defeat the other.

Other than restarting the multiversal creation cycle, there is no clear or defined way for Phoenix to 'defeat' LT, and even this 'creation reset' is simply a matter of Phoenix fulfilling it's purpose and not an actual offensive action or attack.

Furthermore, in so doing, in the new creation afforded after this action by the Phoenix, the role of LT will need to be facilitated to keep the natural order and he will exist anew, so it's not an actual defeat as much as a repositioning.

It's a stalemate.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Point being, the phoenix outside of the white hot room is only as powerful as its avatars, thus if the LT is more powerful then its Avatars then respectively then LT is more powerful then the phoenix. Claiming that within the white hot room the phoenix force is more powerful then the LT is also not completely grounded (nor is it known if this is true) because if the Phoenix Force cannot act outside of the White hot room without a host, then it's influence is restricted very much so.

The Phoenix can and has acted without avatars before on a number of occassions. That is common knowledge so i will not cater for your lack of knowledge with scans. Jean Grey is not just a host she is literally Phoenix as stated on panel and in her bio. She was made from the Force for the purpose of carrying out "Phoenix work" on the physical plane. That is why she is the White Crown Phoenix. With all that in mind your point is void. Phoenix has a more important role than LT and on top of that has better on panel feats.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Some thing for you to think about, when the entire Marvel Megaverse was being threatened, was the phoenix force or any of its avatars able to stop it? No it and they were not able to, even though the LT was defeated he was at least able to stand up to the HOTU. In the end of that arc TOAA reversed everything Thanos with the HOTU did. Thus going by on panel feats, HOTU/TOAA>PF, which I would like to also bring up that the phoenix force did nothing, I believe not because it chose not to but rather because it couldn't do anything.

Wrong on many a point mate. Allow me to explain.Who is to say the entire marvel megaverse was threatened? No evidence for that. It certainly wasnt stated and in the end the destruction wrought by HOTU was restricted to a single universe. (Please re-read the title to refresh your memory or if you ask nicely i will post scans stating the point). On top of that the Phoenix wasnt present in the entire mini so how it would fare against HOTU is unknown.

Youre whole grasp on what happened in The End is incredibly faulty. Please show me anywhere in the mini that TOAA's name is mentioned. Please tell me where it was confirmed that HOTU was the supreme beings power. It wasnt anywhere in the title. Thanos speculated that it was so, which isnt conclusive evidence. He also speculated the same thing about the IG and that as we later found it was far from the case. On top of that no mention of the HOTU being the supreme beings power was mentioned in Akhenatens bio which came out last month in the latest handbook. It was nothing but Thanos' speculation, he didnt know the origins of the power all we know is that its a power source greater than the IG and LT.

Therefore going by on panel feats containing the power of the multiversal reset switch that is the M'kraan crystal is still greater than Thanos absorbing the universe and its protectors and then undoing his actions. Strictly universal im afraid.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Galactic Storm your attitude of "I am wiser then though, thus whatever you say is meaningless" really holds little influence and sway to others.

Nope my attitude is if you post an argument you better make sure as hell you have the goods to back it up. I can draw on many a source to prove my point here without a shadow of a doubt. You on the other hand have a faulty grasp of a mini and ignorance over both of the topics characters. You have nothing to support your OPINION. Therefore it really is quite meaningless in this debate. 🙁

Originally posted by illadelph12
Looks like a catch 22 all around.

Eh, oh well.

I've never been one to let the opinions of others disuade me from my own logical deduction.

I see LT and the Phoenix Force as supplementary peers, with Phoenix's role establishing the necessity of Tribunal's role.

The power levels of either has never been specifically quantified nor the limits clearly defined, so I have no reason to beleive either would defeat the other.

Other than restarting the multiversal creation cycle, there is no clear or defined way for Phoenix to 'defeat' LT, and even this 'creation reset' is simply a matter of Phoenix fulfilling it's purpose and not an actual offensive action or attack.

Furthermore, in so doing, in the new creation afforded after this action by the Phoenix, the role of LT will need to be facilitated to keep the natural order and he will exist anew, so it's not an actual defeat as much as a repositioning.

It's a stalemate.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

well said. 😉

Originally posted by illadelph12
Looks like a catch 22 all around.

Eh, oh well.

I've never been one to let the opinions of others disuade me from my own logical deduction.

I see LT and the Phoenix Force as supplementary peers, with Phoenix's role establishing the necessity of Tribunal's role.

The power levels of either has never been specifically quantified nor the limits clearly defined, so I have no reason to beleive either would defeat the other.

Other than restarting the multiversal creation cycle, there is no clear or defined way for Phoenix to 'defeat' LT, and even this 'creation reset' is simply a matter of Phoenix fulfilling it's purpose and not an actual offensive action or attack.

Furthermore, in so doing, in the new creation afforded after this action by the Phoenix, the role of LT will need to be facilitated to keep the natural order and he will exist anew, so it's not an actual defeat as much as a repositioning.

It's a stalemate.

Purpose doesn't equal power.

But theres a stated schedule to be kept to and the fact that the Phoenix power can be tapped into at any point to humble the likes of LT as stated and depicted on panel then that shows you its greater. In such a circumstance that would not be the Phoenix fulfilling its purpose. As actually stated such an event would be against the natural order (the order LT and the like seek to maintain) which is why the council of fundamental forces (of which LT was a member) convened and sent Eternity to ask Jean not to let it happen.

My opinion hasnt changed Ill dont get me wrong but my way of looking at debates and weighing up arguments has. Its quite correct to only consider something canon if its stated on panel or explicitly shown. What is canon is all that matters in debates not our opinions on how things should be. While my theories were heavily alluded to on panel and were likely what the writers intended to be picked up on, they conclusively were not canon. Me accepting that doesnt change my opinion or equate to me allowing the opinions of others to dissuade me from my logical deductions lol.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But theres a stated schedule to be kept to and the fact that the Phoenix power can be tapped into at any point to humble the likes of LT as stated and depicted on panel then that shows you its greater. In such a circumstance that would not be the Phoenix fulfilling its purpose. As actually stated such an event would be against the natural order (the order LT and the like seek to maintain) which is why the council of fundamental forces (of which LT was a member) convened and sent Eternity to ask Jean not to let it happen.

You mean the Stranger episode.

That is very subjective as well.

Stranger was going to pervert the role of the Phoenix Force to serve his own ends, but he didn't actually have or obtain the power. The depiction you continually reference was simply an illustration of a possible outcome that was never realized. Given that the role of the Phoenix Force is the fundamental energy source of creation, it does seem like a great leveraging tool.

Based on common sense, the Stranger himself is not more powerful than any of the other abstracts, particularly Living Tribunal, and especially if they combined their efforts. There is no logical reason other than a plot device that a pantheon of omnipotent, omnipresent beings that embody universal conceptualization and the judge, jury, and executioner of all Marvel existence would have to go and ask for the assistance of Jean Grey to stop Stranger from obtaining the Phoenix Force power from her when he didn't already have the power in his posession and was not a threat until he actually acquired access to the force.

Now, in this instance, it is perfectly logical that Living Tribunal would not simply banish or destroy Stranger because he hadn't yet actually committed the crime (just as he didn't kill Warlock before he acquired the IG, or Thanos before he acquired the IG or HOTU), and after he had perpetrated this crime, the power source he would have in his employ, by purpose, would give him a glaring leveraging point over Living Tribunal because Stranger would have control of the fundamental substance of the creation cycle and be able to restart and reform creation to his own design at will, so yes, LT would be trumped, because his role is to protect to product of the Phoenix Force, he has no say in what shape or substance this product takes when created, he simply fulfills his role.

However, by your own "canon feats" definition, Stranger's displayed possible perversion of the Phoenix Force to subjugate the Abstracts is not an actual Phoenix feat, it's a Stranger feat equivalent to Thanos with the IG or Doom with the Power Cosmic.

The Phoenix Force on it's own is not given to such perversions and is bound by it's role, so this instance is not afforded to the will or actions of the Force, Jean, or it's sentience within the White Hot Room, and therefore is inadmissable as evidence of the Force itself acting and displaying domain over the Abstracts and Living Tribunal.

A catch 22.

So, as I've said all along, Living Tribunal and The Phoenix Force (the actual force) are supplementary peers.

Phoenix creates, Tribunal protects.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My opinion hasnt changed Ill dont get me wrong but my way of looking at debates and weighing up arguments has. Its quite correct to only consider something canon if its stated on panel or explicitly shown. What is canon is all that matters in debates not our opinions on how things should be. While my theories were heavily alluded to on panel and were likely what the writers intended to be picked up on, they conclusively were not canon. Me accepting that doesnt change my opinion or equate to me allowing the opinions of others to dissuade me from my logical deductions lol.

Whirly really got to you, huh?

Originally posted by illadelph12
You mean the Stranger episode.

That is very subjective as well.

Stranger was going to pervert the role of the Phoenix Force to serve his own ends, but he didn't actually have or obtain the power. The depiction you continually reference was simply an illustration of a [b]possible outcome that was never realized. Given that the role of the Phoenix Force is the fundamental energy source of creation, it does seem like a great leveraging tool.

Based on common sense, the Stranger himself is not more powerful than any of the other abstracts, particularly Living Tribunal, and especially if they combined their efforts. There is no logical reason other than a plot device that a pantheon of omnipotent, omnipresent beings that embody universal conceptualization and the judge, jury, and executioner of all Marvel existence would have to go and ask for the assistance of Jean Grey to stop Stranger from obtaining the Phoenix Force power from her when he didn't already have the power in his posession and was not a threat until he actually acquired access to the force.

Now, in this instance, it is perfectly logical that Living Tribunal would not simply banish or destroy Stranger because he hadn't yet actually committed the crime (just as he didn't kill Warlock before he acquired the IG, or Thanos before he acquired the IG or HOTU), and after he had perpetrated this crime, the power source he would have in his employ, by purpose, would give him a glaring leveraging point over Living Tribunal because Stranger would have control of the fundamental substance of the creation cycle and be able to restart and reform creation to his own design at will, so yes, LT would be trumped, because his role is to protect to product of the Phoenix Force, he has no say in what shape or substance this product takes when created, he simply fulfills his role.

However, by your own "canon feats" definition, Stranger's displayed possible perversion of the Phoenix Force to subjugate the Abstracts is not an actual Phoenix feat, it's a Stranger feat equivalent to Thanos with the IG or Doom with the Power Cosmic.

The Phoenix Force on it's own is not given to such perversions and is bound by it's role, so this instance is not afforded to the will or actions of the Force, Jean, or it's sentience within the White Hot Room, and therefore is inadmissable as evidence of the Force itself acting and displaying domain over the Abstracts and Living Tribunal.

A catch 22.

So, as I've said all along, Living Tribunal and The Phoenix Force (the actual force) are supplementary peers.

Phoenix creates, Tribunal protects. [/B]

Yes but its something thats been stated to be achievable by one wielding the power of the Phoenix Force. Thats the crux of the matter. Its within the Phoenixes power to do so. This instance was never once presented by myself as evidence of Phoenix acting on its own without a host (i addressed that point earlier saying it was common knowledge that that could be done). This was just me stating of an instance where the two powers were weighed up against each other and Phoenix apparently comes out on top. So alot of your post was unnecessary and im sorry for leading you to interpret my actions in a way that made you think it was. 😉

As for your point about Phoenix being bound by its role, about it not being given to such perversions, what do you think Dark Phoenix was all about?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Whirly really got to you, huh?

My opinion hasnt changed in the slightest so not really. 😉 I just happen to agree that conclusive on panel evidence is required for points to be treated as fact in debate, otherwise its just personal opinion which holds no weight if unsupported officially.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes but its something thats been stated to be achievable by one wielding the power of the Phoenix Force. Thats the crux of the matter. Its within the Phoenixes power to do so. This instance was never once presented by myself as evidence of Phoenix acting on its own without a host (i addressed that point earlier saying it was common knowledge that that could be done). This was just me stating of an instance where the two powers were weighed up against each other and Phoenix apparently comes out on top. So alot of your post was unnecessary and im sorry for leading you to interpret my actions in a way that made you think it was. 😉

As for your point about Phoenix being bound by its role, about it not being given to such perversions, what do you think Dark Phoenix was all about?

Dark Phoenix is the Chaos Bringer, which is part of the Phoenix Force's role (creater/destroyer). It's not a perversion, per se, it's the other side of the Phoenix coin.

The Phoenix Force being wielded by Stranger so that he can reform creation in his own image is a perversion of it's purpose. The Phoenix Force is only to be wielded by chosen hosts/avatars specifically, and only so that they can carry out specific duties necessary for the multiversal life cycle's maintanence when called upon.

This "instance" is hollow.

It doesn't state why or in which manner the Phoenix Force is being used to subjugate the Abstracts and Tribunal, it just depicts them in a state where Stranger has them at his mercy without going into detail of why that has come to pass.

It's not specifically a showing of the Phoenix Force being more powerful than the Tribunal, it just shows that there is some undefined tactical advantage presented to Stranger when he wields the power, and as we both know, you don't have to be more powerful to have a tactical advantage.

David beat Goliath.

Ingenuity doesn't equal power.

You still have no 'canon' evidence that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than Living Tribunal, all you have is a picture depicting an ambiguous advantage afforded to Stranger by wielding the Phoenix Force outside the confines of it's purpose in the multiversal plan, and what that advantage is is not clearly defined, nor would it be afforded to the Phoenix Force acting on it's own free will because it's never been displayed in such an manner and is confined to it's role in creation.

No where is it stated specifically that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than Living Tribunal, nor are the limits of the Living Tribunal and the Phoenix Force powers defined. 👇

All we know is the Phoenix Force is reponsible for creating, and Living Tribunal is sole purpose is protecting whatever Phoenix creates by any means deemed necessary.

If the Phoenix Force creates a sign that says "Living Tribunal's A F*cking 3 Headed Turd Muncher", LT's duty is to protect it, and he will, because that's his purpose.

It doesn't mean Phoenix is more powerful, it's simply a matter of designation and purpose.

The only thing Phoenix has on Tribunal, which is clear and canon, is that Phoenix is necessary for Tribunal to exist due to the fact that without a creation there's no need for Tribunal's role as protector of creation. Phoenix makes Tribunal's role, as well as the roles of all the Abstracts, possible, and necessary.

[Eh, I've needed a good debate anyway.]

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My opinion hasnt changed in the slightest so not really. 😉 I just happen to agree that conclusive on panel evidence is required for points to be treated as fact in debate, otherwise its just personal opinion which holds no weight if unsupported officially.

Ok, but I'm gonna hold you to that my friend.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
The only problem I see with your theory, Jesse, is a What If? comic may not be part of Marvel continuity in any form what so ever. If it's not an alternate reality comic and literally just an "imaginary" excerpt then any multiversal being's appearance doesn't *have* to be canon. It might be kind of like an official fan fiction.

All "What ifs", are alternate reality. The premise is they are other Earths Uatu is watching!

It doesn't really matter - eventually there'll be Phoenix stating how incredibly powerful LT is compared to it in order to impress the readers. Cosmic hierarchies shift about constantly for the nature of the stories in marvel (they don't in dc because the omnipotent beings get more coverage)

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
All "What ifs", are alternate reality. The premise is they are other Earths Uatu is watching!

I knew you were coming...

Originally posted by illadelph12
Dark Phoenix is the Chaos Bringer, which is part of the Phoenix Force's role (creater/destroyer). It's not a perversion, per se, it's the other side of the Phoenix coin.

The Phoenix Force being wielded by Stranger so that he can reform creation in his own image is a perversion of it's purpose. The Phoenix Force is only to be wielded by chosen hosts/avatars specifically, and only so that they can carry out specific duties necessary for the multiversal life cycle's maintanence when called upon.

This "instance" is hollow.

It doesn't state why or in which manner the Phoenix Force is being used to subjugate the Abstracts and Tribunal, it just depicts them in a state where Stranger has them at his mercy without going into detail of why that has come to pass.

It's not specifically a showing of the Phoenix Force being more powerful than the Tribunal, it just shows that there is some undefined tactical advantage presented to Stranger when he wields the power, and as we both know, you don't have to be more powerful to have a tactical advantage.

David beat Goliath.

Ingenuity doesn't equal power.

You still have no 'canon' evidence that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than Living Tribunal, all you have is a picture depicting an ambiguous advantage afforded to Stranger by wielding the Phoenix Force outside the confines of it's purpose in the multiversal plan, and what that advantage is is not clearly defined, nor would it be afforded to the Phoenix Force acting on it's own free will because it's never been displayed in such an manner and is confined to it's role in creation.

No where is it stated specifically that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than Living Tribunal, nor are the limits of the Living Tribunal and the Phoenix Force powers defined. 👇

All we know is the Phoenix Force is reponsible for creating, and Living Tribunal is sole purpose is protecting whatever Phoenix creates by any means deemed necessary.

If the Phoenix Force creates a sign that says "Living Tribunal's A F*cking 3 Headed Turd Muncher", LT's duty is to protect it, and he will, because that's his purpose.

It doesn't mean Phoenix is more powerful, it's simply a matter of designation and purpose.

The only thing Phoenix has on Tribunal, which is clear and canon, is that Phoenix is necessary for Tribunal to exist due to the fact that without a creation there's no need for Tribunal's role as protector of [b]creation. Phoenix makes Tribunal's role, as well as the roles of all the Abstracts, possible, and necessary.

[Eh, I've needed a good debate anyway.] [/B]

No need to counter this point for point as this comes down to a few main points which you have stretched out.

1)""Dark Phoenix wasnt a perversion of Phoenix from its "Phoenix work""

Incorrect. While it is within Phoenixes role to destroy it is only abiding by its role by destroying things which dont work, evolutionary dead ends, things which impedes the creation cycle, the universe at the end of time. The act of destroing in itself is not an example of Phoenix performing "Phoenix Work".

Hence why Phoenix considered her actions as Dark Phoenix a mistake and why Death deemed it a hard lesson she would learn from:

On top of that Phoenix went on to limit the power subsequent avatars (i.e Rachel) had access to for fear of a repeat of Dark Phoenix as stated in the bio. Phoenix destroys for the benefit of existence, for the maintenance of the creation cycle. Random acts of destruction arent included im afraid. Phoenix can and has strayed from its role Ill.

2) ""Phoenix Force can only be wielded by chosen avatars for specific duties""

Again incorrect. The Phoenix Force has been tapped into and wielded by Spiderman, Prof Xavier and Necrom for personal reasons. Also if that was the case then LT, Eternity and the like would hardly have felt the need to convene and approach Jean. Your opinion isnt supported.

Regardless in light of the fact that Jean herself can and has strayed from her role the point you were trying to make here is void.

The Stranger instance was far from hollow. The circumstances with which Stranger could have as stated made himself supreme being over LT and all others are irrelevant. Someone wielding the Phoenix power can humble LT as shown. Thats the crux of the matter. Whether its down to merely having more raw power or the confines of the characters roles its irrelevant. Your tactical advantage point can be used against HOTU as nowhere was it stated that it was more powerful than LT, despite clearly humbling him. However because of that depiction HOTU is ranked above LT. I take it you must disagree with that as well?

So to sum up Phoenix can and has acted outside the confines of its role

People other than avatars can and have wielded the power for their own personal reasons

Whether its tactical advantage or through sheer power the Phoenix power as shown and stated on panel can give a wielder the ability to become supreme being of reality, above LTs ability to intervene with.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No need to counter this point for point as this comes down to a few main points which you have stretched out.

1)""Dark Phoenix wasnt a perversion of Phoenix from its "Phoenix work""

Incorrect. While it is within Phoenixes role to destroy it is only abiding by its role by destroying things which dont work, evolutionary dead ends, things which impedes the creation cycle, the universe at the end of time. The act of destroing in itself is not an example of Phoenix performing "Phoenix Work".

Hence why Phoenix considered her actions as Dark Phoenix a mistake and why Death deemed it a hard lesson she would learn from:

On top of that Phoenix went on to limit the power subsequent avatars (i.e Rachel) had access to for fear of a repeat of Dark Phoenix as stated in the bio. Phoenix destroys for the benefit of existence, for the maintenance of the creation cycle. Random acts of destruction arent included im afraid. Phoenix can and has strayed from its role Ill.

2) ""Phoenix Force can only be wielded by chosen avatars for specific duties""

Again incorrect. The Phoenix Force has been tapped into and wielded by Spiderman, Prof Xavier and Necrom for personal reasons. Also if that was the case then LT, Eternity and the like would hardly have felt the need to convene and approach Jean. Your opinion isnt supported.

Regardless in light of the fact that Jean herself can and has strayed from her role the point you were trying to make here is void.

The Stranger instance was far from hollow. The circumstances with which Stranger could have as stated made himself supreme being over LT and all others are irrelevant. Someone wielding the Phoenix power can humble LT as shown. Thats the crux of the matter. Whether its down to merely having more raw power or the confines of the characters roles its irrelevant. Your tactical advantage point can be used against HOTU as nowhere was it stated that it was more powerful than LT, despite clearly humbling him. However because of that depiction HOTU is ranked above LT. I take it you must disagree with that as well?

So to sum up Phoenix can and has acted outside the confines of its role

People other than avatars can and have wielded the power for their own personal reasons

Whether its tactical advantage or through sheer power the Phoenix power as shown and stated on panel can give a wielder the ability to become supreme being of reality, above LTs ability to intervene with.

😆

Yeah, when I saw that scan of "Spider-Phoenix" after I made that post I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

Allow me to restate the point I was trying to make:

Without external influence the Phoenix Force itself can not act outside of it's purpose. What the wielders do with the power is given to their own designs, but this is the Force itself vs. LT.

It's never been clearly depicted how the power of the Phoenix Force or the Heart of the Universe asserts an advantage over Living Tribunal, so by your own standards of needing canon proof, the claim can not be made that either is more powerful because it's never been said or clearly defined that either of the power sources do anything more than supercede LT's jurisdiction (like the Time Twisters).

Originally posted by illadelph12
I knew you were coming...

Then I didn't dissapoint 🙂

Originally posted by illadelph12
😆

Yeah, when I saw that scan of "Spider-Phoenix" after I made that post I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

Allow me to restate the point I was trying to make:

Without external influence the Phoenix Force itself can not act outside of it's purpose. What the wielders do with the power is given to their own designs, but this is the Force itself vs. LT.

I know that Spider Phoenix was so stupid but you just wait you see Bald Phoenix ❌ two guesses at who the host is.

Anyway back on topic, Jean Grey is the Phoenix Force. She is the force manifest, for the purpose of carrying out Phoenix work. Jean can and has acted outside of her role. Her evil side existed within her prior to Masterminds manipulations as stated in her bio. Its the very reason why she instinctively erected her psychic circuit breakers in the first place. Masterminds manipulations just brought it to the surface and she acted in kind, as per her nature. She wasnt mind controlled but swayed to embrace the other side of her nature so your point is moot.

Phoenix embodies passion as Death says in the previous scans with passion theres a fine line between light and shadow. Avatars must rein in the power or risk embracing the dark side of the dual natured Phoenix Force. Jean can use the power as she pleases theres no higher power automatically barring her from doing so. (Her actions as Dark Phoenix were written off by her as a lesson learned, a mistake.) Jean however has a purpose and she strives not to give into the temptation that comes with the power and nature of Phoenix.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's never been clearly depicted how the power of the Phoenix Force or the Heart of the Universe asserts an advantage over Living Tribunal, so by your own standards of needing canon proof, the claim can not be made that either is more powerful because it's never been said or clearly defined that either of the power sources do anything more than supercede LT's jurisdiction (like the Time Twisters).

All of this is ultimately futile. In the end im still getting what i want. 😉Whether you interpret X-men Forever as showing Phoenix being outright more powerful or a wielder of the power instead being able to supercede LT and bypass his judgements it doesnt matter. What cannot be argued against is that for the purpose of versus matches the Phoenix trumps LT. The Phoenix power can be wielded 😄

As I've stated before, purpose doesn't equal power, so this 'advantage' afforded Phoenix bearers and HotU bearers could simply be based on role. There may still be instances where the hosts actions fall under Tribunal jurisdiction, an actual confrontation between the two forces has never been depicted. All that has been is Stranger's possible perversion that never came to pass, and it didn't depict the manner in which this subjugation was afforded.

So yes, I'll concede that there may be a yet undefined tactical advantage of the PF or HotU against the Tribunal, but not necessarily a degree of greater power (The Time Twisters weren't more powerful either). Perhaps the bearers are simply granted a form of "diplomatic immunity", if you will, within creation, and aren't bound by the laws Tribunal is commissioned to govern creation by.

Originally posted by illadelph12
As I've stated before, purpose doesn't equal power, so this 'advantage' afforded Phoenix bearers and HotU bearers could simply be based on role. There may still be instances where the hosts actions fall under Tribunal jurisdiction, an actual confrontation between the two forces has never been depicted. All that has been is Stranger's possible perversion that never came to pass, and it didn't depict the manner in which this subjugation was afforded.

So yes, I'll concede that there may be a yet undefined tactical advantage of the PF or HotU against the Tribunal, but not necessarily a degree of greater power (The Time Twisters weren't more powerful either). Perhaps the bearers are simply granted a form of "diplomatic immunity", if you will, within creation, and aren't bound by the laws Tribunal is commissioned to govern creation by.

So basically yes GS Phoenix beats LT in a versus match. Cool 😉