Originally posted by ESB - 1138
It took thousands of battle droids (hundreds of super battle droids that do rapid fire without pulling a trigger meaning they could shot more blaster bolts then the HKs could) to defeat 200 Jedi Knights. 100 HK-100s wouldn't be able to defeat them.
I suppose I should have proposed this scenario at Arm Chair General forums where people know their shit on infantry tactics.
ESB... The battle droids in the arena did NOT take up batlte lines and fire multiple volleys into the jedi ranks. In fact, they were spread in a wide circle and they -clearly- took random shots at individual jedi instead of combining their firepower and laying down proper saturation fire. Even the potenti droidekas and battle droids foolishly waddled around in the battlefield and sought out single jedi knights like some kind of foolish honor duel mentality. The HK droids would not be so foolish. So while the original droid army had far more bolts to put out, they were idiotic in their strategy (Just as they were on Naboo in TPM, another droid army **** up) and one hundred HK droids would be FAR more effective, period.
Originally posted by Wesker
I suppose I should have proposed this scenario at Arm Chair General forums where people know their shit on infantry tactics.ESB... The battle droids in the arena did NOT take up batlte lines and fire multiple volleys into the jedi ranks. In fact, they were spread in a wide circle and they -clearly- took random shots at individual jedi instead of combining their firepower and laying down proper saturation fire. Even the potenti droidekas and battle droids foolishly waddled around in the battlefield and sought out single jedi knights like some kind of foolish honor duel mentality. The HK droids would not be so foolish. So while the original droid army had far more bolts to put out, they were idiotic in their strategy (Just as they were on Naboo in TPM, another droid army **** up) and one hundred HK droids would be FAR more effective, period.
Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.
Who wins?
First post. If it is the same situtation the Jedi starts out on all areas of the arena like they did in ATOC. And clearly you make it sound like the Jedi just stand around. We could clearly see that the Jedi stayed in small groups to help give each other cover fire.
OMg... Glentract, here's your assumptions:
- 15,000 blasts NEED to be aimed at individuals. Obviously you know nothing about the idea of [b]saturation fire. [/b]
1. You're assuming that the Jedi are going to be all bunched up throughout the fight. They weren't all bunched on Geonosis in ep2, which drastically reduces the effectiveness of saturation fire.
2. I'd like to see your source for a repeating blaster being able to fire five shots per second. The T-21 repeating blaster can only fire once per second because of cooling requirements according to the Essential Guide to Weapons.
[QUOTE=6104086]Originally posted by Wesker
- That when a volley opens up of over 2,000 blasts within the first few seconds, the jedi will have the skill and luck to reflect them back and hit a man-sized object across an entire arena rivaling a major football stadium.
2,000 shots in the first few seconds? How do you figure? And if the HK droids don't need to aim to hit the Jedi I don't see why it would take aim to hit the HK droids right back. The point is that neither is going to be able to just randomly hit fire back at the other side. They will need to take aim, something that neither side will have the time to really do(the Jedi won't at all and the HK droids will only be able to if they reduce their firing speed from once every other second.).
- Luke blocking a total of perhaps three to six shots from the speeder bike compares to the onslaught of again, over 2,000 shots inside of a minute. Oh, and that the situations are comparable. Luke was able to block that with the blasts coming directly at him from one target under rather minimal pressure, compared to a flat out war of jedi versus HK droids armed to the teeth.
HK droids win.
Janus, I already showed how ever ROTJ Luke was deflecting blaster bolts fast enough for 200 Jedi Knights to do the same. The situations aren't totally comparible, no, but Luke wasn't exactly experinced at deflecting blaster bolts. That was what, his third time do it? The Jedi have been trained for years and years to stop blaster bolts. They can do it.
Jedi win.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. You're assuming that the Jedi are going to be all bunched up throughout the fight. They weren't all bunched on Geonosis in ep2, which drastically reduces the effectiveness of saturation fire.
Erm, they have NO WHERE to hide on the floor. And I don't think there's going to be a lot of places for two hundred jedi to just... disburse and not end up getting shot. Likewise, these are Mandalorian Repeaters. They pump out ammo pretty fast and have huge ammo paks.
2. I'd like to see your source for a repeating blaster being able to fire five shots per second. The T-21 repeating blaster can only fire once per second because of cooling requirements according to the Essential Guide to Weapons.
My source? KotOR II. Go play the game, Glentract. Every time the weapon is fired, it releases 4-5 shots. With recoil and aim adjustment, at optimal firing a droid assassin army could fire a shot -perhaps- every other second. Even if they only fire every ten seconds, that's still 3,000 bolts a minute. If you think that the jedi can just stream across an open arena and wade their way through that and destroy every HK droid, that's disgustingly inaccurate.
2,000 shots in the first few seconds? How do you figure? And if the HK droids don't need to aim to hit the Jedi I don't see why it would take aim to hit the HK droids right back. The point is that neither is going to be able to just randomly hit fire back at the other side. They will need to take aim, something that neither side will have the time to really do(the Jedi won't at all and the HK droids will only be able to if they reduce their firing speed from once every other second.).
Firing every other second, 2,000 blasts could be loosed in a very short amount of time if they're firing for saturation. (100 HKs, 5 shots per second, ever other second fired = 2,000 rounds in 8-10 seconds, optimally).
And really, do you think that with that kind of firepower coming straight at the jedi they're all going to react perfectly and just... reflect it all? If reflecting blaster bolts using Niman was -that- good, they wouldn't have charged to close the gap. At home I have an animation showing them charging to close the gap, but of course I can't post it while at work.
What I see happening is the HKs opening up with a tremendous first volley. Jedi drop. The jedi will likely lose members in this volley (Since the average Niman jedi is not fit for much combat), and they do one of two things... Either the jedi bunch together and try and defend while charging (Which presents a huge target and minimizes their effective lightsaber blocking range since they're so close together), or they fragment and run across the field one at a time, in which case the HK start to bracket them in with fire and then take them down as they approach.
Any jedi who gets within the HK lines will do some damage, but the others will likely turn on him and rip loose. Again, the Mandalorian Repeater does 4-5 rounds -per trigger pull-, so most jedi won't be able to contend with that while running forward. And keep in mind that the shots aren't tightly
[quote]
Janus, I already showed how ever ROTJ Luke was deflecting blaster bolts fast enough for 200 Jedi Knights to do the same. The situations aren't totally comparible, no, but Luke wasn't exactly experinced at deflecting blaster bolts. That was what, his third time do it? The Jedi have been trained for years and years to stop blaster bolts. They can do it.
Jedi win. [quote]
No, you're wrong. It's an improper comparison. Luke was alone, versus one speederbike trooper whose gun fired straight at him with about 3-6 shots total in a much shorter time. This is a few hundred jedi versus a hundred armed killing machines firing rounds in excess of that dozens of times over per second. No comparison. You proved... nothing.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
[B]Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.Who wins?
First post. If it is the same situtation the Jedi starts out on all areas of the arena like they did in ATOC. And clearly you make it sound like the Jedi just stand around. We could clearly see that the Jedi stayed in small groups to help give each other cover fire. [/B]
Hm. I didn't see that. If the HK droids are spread out in a circle like that, they'll probably die. If they are in one group across the arena, they can take this.
The Jedi have plenty of room to spread out to keep the HKs down. The arena is pretty big with columns and stuff in the way. The Jedi managed to deflect thousands of blaster bolts until they lost to many to keep holding and got pushed into a small circle. If anything the way the droids were attacking the Jedi was the best way because they were attacking them all around and now the Jedi could focus on center droids considering they outnumber the HKs 1 to 2.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
The Jedi have plenty of room to spread out to keep the HKs down. The arena is pretty big with columns and stuff in the way. The Jedi managed to deflect thousands of blaster bolts until they lost to many to keep holding and got pushed into a small circle. If anything the way the droids were attacking the Jedi was the best way because they were attacking them all around and now the Jedi could focus on center droids considering they outnumber the HKs 1 to 2.
No, actually there were two thin pillars (The width of a human being) in the arena and eventually the overturned chariot. That's it. Nothing else to hide behind besides each other. And if you watch AOTC again, you can see that the droids engage in under 10 meters range with the jedi before they open fire. It's clearly in the jedi's favor, and they STILL die in large ass numbers.
And the encircling tactic is idiotic. No one with ranged weapons wants to fully encircle an enemy. that's ridiculous. You want between two to three bases of fire from about 90 degrees apart, max.
Originally posted by Wesker
No, actually there were two thin pillars (The width of a human being) in the arena and eventually the overturned chariot. That's it. Nothing else to hide behind besides each other. And if you watch AOTC again, you can see that the droids engage in under 10 meters range with the jedi before they open fire. It's clearly in the jedi's favor, and they STILL die in large ass numbers.And the encircling tactic is idiotic. No one with ranged weapons wants to fully encircle an enemy. that's ridiculous. You want between two to three bases of fire from about 90 degrees apart, max.
Well when there is about 20 Jedi left and you have them completely surrounded that's a good thing. Also the battle droids wanted to surround the Jedi to cut off any possible escape routes.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Well when there is about 20 Jedi left and you have them completely surrounded that's a good thing. Also the battle droids wanted to surround the Jedi to cut off any possible escape routes.
The jedi really have no where to escape to. If we assume that the objective is to defeat Separatist (HK ) forces and presumably to rescue the jedi held captive, this could be (goal wise) a miserable failure. If we assume that there are no jedi and senator to rescue but they still must win, encircling is still a bad choice. Look at it like this...
HK HK HK HK
HK HK HK
JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI
HK HK HK
.......
That's an ideal crossfire.
Originally posted by Wesker
The jedi really have no where to escape to. If we assume that the objective is to defeat Separatist (HK ) forces and presumably to rescue the jedi held captive, this could be (goal wise) a miserable failure. If we assume that there are no jedi and senator to rescue but they still must win, encircling is still a bad choice. Look at it like this...HK HK HK HK
HK HK HK
JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI
HK HK HK
.......
That's an ideal crossfire.
Expect here the Jedi outnumber the HKs 2 to 1. Your little chart show the Jedi outnumbered in one area with the HKs spread out which wouldn't happen. The Jedi would spread out forcing the HKs to either bunch together or spread out.