100 HK-47's versus the Geonosis Jedi.

Originally posted by Wesker
Hm. I didn't see that. If the HK droids are spread out in a circle like that, they'll probably die. If they are in one group across the arena, they can take this.

Apparently you don't uderstand where I'm coming from. As I've admitted here, if it's a mere 100 HK droids encircling jedi just exactly like in the movie, they will likely lose. It's a poor situation. If they DON'T start off in such a ridiculous position, they can win. THAT'S what I'm arguing. But since Traya isn't here to specify, I plan to keep arguing the case.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.

Who wins?

She said same situtation

Okay mister literal. Same situation. they die. Piss off.

Same situation, the clones come in and pwn the HK-47s

Originally posted by Wesker
Erm, they have NO WHERE to hide on the floor. And I don't think there's going to be a lot of places for two hundred jedi to just... disburse and not end up getting shot. Likewise, these are Mandalorian Repeaters. They pump out ammo pretty fast and have huge ammo paks.

My source? KotOR II. Go play the game, Glentract. Every time the weapon is fired, it releases 4-5 shots. With recoil and aim adjustment, at optimal firing a droid assassin army could fire a shot -perhaps- every other second. Even if they only fire every ten seconds, that's still 3,000 bolts a minute. If you think that the jedi can just stream across an open arena and wade their way through that and destroy every HK droid, that's disgustingly inaccurate.

Firing every other second, 2,000 blasts could be loosed in a very short amount of time if they're firing for saturation. (100 HKs, 5 shots per second, ever other second fired = 2,000 rounds in 8-10 seconds, optimally).

And really, do you think that with that kind of firepower coming straight at the jedi they're all going to react perfectly and just... reflect it all? If reflecting blaster bolts using Niman was -that- good, they wouldn't have charged to close the gap. At home I have an animation showing them charging to close the gap, but of course I can't post it while at work.

What I see happening is the HKs opening up with a tremendous first volley. Jedi drop. The jedi will likely lose members in this volley (Since the average Niman jedi is not fit for much combat), and they do one of two things... Either the jedi bunch together and try and defend while charging (Which presents a huge target and minimizes their effective lightsaber blocking range since they're so close together), or they fragment and run across the field one at a time, in which case the HK start to bracket them in with fire and then take them down as they approach.

Any jedi who gets within the HK lines will do some damage, but the others will likely turn on him and rip loose. Again, the Mandalorian Repeater does 4-5 rounds -per trigger pull-, so most jedi won't be able to contend with that while running forward. And keep in mind that the shots aren't tightly

[quote]
Janus, I already showed how ever ROTJ Luke was deflecting blaster bolts fast enough for 200 Jedi Knights to do the same. The situations aren't totally comparible, no, but Luke wasn't exactly experinced at deflecting blaster bolts. That was what, his third time do it? The Jedi have been trained for years and years to stop blaster bolts. They can do it.

Jedi win. [quote]

No, you're wrong. It's an improper comparison. Luke was alone, versus one speederbike trooper whose gun fired straight at him with about 3-6 shots total in a much shorter time. This is a few hundred jedi versus a hundred armed killing machines firing rounds in excess of that dozens of times over per second. No comparison. You proved... nothing.

You are overlooking something obvious, even though the droids can fire 4-5 shots every time they fire (which is more like every 3 or 4 seconds anyway) how many of those shots actually hit your opponent? usually one or two.
There was plenty of room on Geonosis for Jedi to seperate! another obvious point. when the fight started, the Jedi were all up in the stands, standing well apart from each other. They were nowhere near all standing together in ranks. Plus you ignore richochets, and deflected shots doing damage, i believe a few jedi would fall, but at 2 to 1, i think it would be a short fight with smoking droids lying everywhere.

My main point: at the beginning of the battle, the jedi have the droids surrounded, there are no battle lines. It's fact, when the lightsabers ignite, they have the enemy surrounded, with civilians everywhere that would stop the first volley of blasterfire. It would be over in minutes.
Answer that if you can think of something. It is pathetic and ridiculous to think that droids could take out two jedi apiece.

You are overlooking something obvious, even though the droids can fire 4-5 shots every time they fire (which is more like every 3 or 4 seconds anyway) how many of those shots actually hit your opponent? usually one or two.

At the rate of fire they can pump shots out at, this isn't the point. You have 200 jedi, with the HKs loosing around 500 shots anywhere between every two seconds and every five seconds. Considering how the HK droids operate (They have uncanny accuracy and are training killing machines of high quality, as opposed to mere cheap Federation drois with a central controlling computer), they are deadly enemies.

There was plenty of room on Geonosis for Jedi to seperate! another obvious point. when the fight started, the Jedi were all up in the stands, standing well apart from each other.

Actually, they were on the arena floor or just below the stands near the wall. And immediately afterwards they were encircled by Federation droids.

They were nowhere near all standing together in ranks. Plus you ignore richochets, and deflected shots doing damage, i believe a few jedi would fall, but at 2 to 1, i think it would be a short fight with smoking droids lying everywhere.

Over 85% of the jedi didn't leave that arena despite gross incompetence by the Federation droids. HK droids are known assassins and jedi killers, and in this case are equipped with weaponry none of the Fed droids possessed, giving them superior firepower and speed. What -I- was arguing that everyone seems to be just... not paying attention to was that if the jedi were in the arena floor and the HK droids on the other side or outside in the stands, the jedi die. It's one big murderhole. This is pretty obvious. These jedi were substandard in warfare and did not work properly as an army group. One HK droid possesses a MAndalorian Repeater, which fires five rounds as quick as one pulls the trigger. Now, because of the recoil, the 2-5th bolts arc up and scatter. You mean to tell me that the jedi will just block all of those shots? Even if at the beginning of the match the HK take aim and fire on individual jedi, those jedi can't hope to block one five-burst shot, let alone two. And saturation fire would just mow down any large groups.

I'm glad everyone has great faith in the jedi's blocking abilities though, considering we don't see a jedi deflect a blaster bolt back in under a 10 meter distance in the entire series.

My main point: at the beginning of the battle, the jedi have the droids surrounded, there are no battle lines. It's fact, when the lightsabers ignite, they have the enemy surrounded, with civilians everywhere that would stop the first volley of blasterfire. It would be over in minutes.
Answer that if you can think of something. It is pathetic and ridiculous to think that droids could take out two jedi apiece.

Actually, the jedi pop up out in a circle formation, close to the walls on the arena floor, with a few in the stands. Then more Fed droids appear and encircle them entirely. That was the situation. Traya obviously needs to specify the locations of each, because we could easily put the HK droids in the middle where they die horribly, encircling, which wouldn't be much better, or cluster them all on one side.

And please... "It is pathetic and ridiculous to think that droids could take out two jedi apiece." Obviously you don't know a thing about HK droids or Mandalorian hardware.

weaponry none of the Fed droids possessed
If you read the first post you see that they only have Mandalorian Repeaters

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.

Who wins?

one five-burst shot
So the Jedi just stand around? And many of the Jedi came from the stands and the droids came from the arena doors.

10 meter distance in the entire series
Yeah but when you have the ability to move around it seems a lot harder to hit them. Plus the Jedi can easily force push/pull the HKs. They outnumber them 1 to 2 so they don't have to worry about being mauled down by thousands among thousands of battle droids.

assassins and jedi killers
Just because you were built for something doesn't mean you will do it. Look at the IG-100s. They didn't do their job very well.

The only reason most of the Jedi died at Geonosis was because of overwhelming numbers, and the droids had heavy artillary. In this fight, the odds change drastically. There are 200 Jedi, and 100 HK-47 droids. Yes HK-47 is a lot better than a battle droid, but if the Jedi outnumber the HK-47s 2 to 1 then the Jedi take this. A lot of Jedi will die, but they still win.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
weaponry none of the Fed droids possessed
If you read the first post you see that they only have Mandalorian Repeaters

Do you know what a Mandalorian Repeater even is? It is a KotOR era weapon; heavy blaster rifle with automatic fire and lots of punch. It's heavier, more powerful, and faster than any weapon the Fed droids had by far. Canderous tots one of them. It's like the gatling gun of the blaster rifle family.

one five-burst shot
So the Jedi just stand around? And many of the Jedi came from the stands and the droids came from the arena doors.

1. The jedi would have EXTREME difficulty deflecting that many rounds at once without going down hurt or dead.

2. The start up of either party needs to be verified by the thread creator. I doubt very much that Traya expected the jedi to be encircling the HK droids. That's game set and match before it even begins.

10 meter distance in the entire series
Yeah but when you have the ability to move around it seems a lot harder to hit them. Plus the Jedi can easily force push/pull the HKs. They outnumber them 1 to 2 so they don't have to worry about being mauled down by thousands among thousands of battle droids.

Erm... did you miss my point? Of course you did. You have the reading comprehension of a four year old.

TEH JEDI CAN NOT REFLECT TEH BLASUR BOLTS BACK AT TEH HK ASSAASSIN DROYDS FROM 60 + METURS ACCURATELY.

Did you get that? The arena is HUGE... easily larger than most stadiums. A volley of 500 blaster bolts coming in under a second is going to be ridiculous for all but Jet Li of the movie Hero to deflect without getting stopped in place or outright hit. And force pushing droids from such distances isn't feasible, especially under HEAVY fire. Use your brain, ESB.

assassins and jedi killers
Just because you were built for something doesn't mean you will do it. Look at the IG-100s. They didn't do their job very well.

Nice logic foul up there, ESB. Congrats on having the reasoning power of a California raisin. HK droids are assassin droids and made for killing. They are accurate shots, devious and clever thinkers, excellent strategists and they KNOW HOW TO KILL JEDI. Period.

Droids have this. Now go play with your jedi action figure, kid.

Originally posted by Wesker
Erm, they have NO WHERE to hide on the floor. And I don't think there's going to be a lot of places for two hundred jedi to just... disburse and not end up getting shot. Likewise, these are Mandalorian Repeaters. They pump out ammo pretty fast and have huge ammo paks.

They don't need to hide. For one, the Mandalorian Heavy Repeater has a maximum range of 28 meters. That's about 90 feet I think(my metric is bad). The HK droids can't snipe the Jedi.

Originally posted by Wesker
My source? KotOR II. Go play the game, Glentract. Every time the weapon is fired, it releases 4-5 shots. With recoil and aim adjustment, at optimal firing a droid assassin army could fire a shot -perhaps- every other second. Even if they only fire every ten seconds, that's still 3,000 bolts a minute. If you think that the jedi can just stream across an open arena and wade their way through that and destroy every HK droid, that's disgustingly inaccurate.

Janus, there is no indication that it will be able to continue to fire at that rate for an extended period of time. If it could, why would it have been abandoned in favor of the T-21, which can only fire once per second because of cooling restrictions.

I already showed you why they can.

1. At 3,000 shots per minute it's far to easy for the Jedi.

3,000 / 60(rounds per second) = 50 rounds per second. 50 / 200 = .25 That's a single shot every four seconds per Jedi. Easy to defend against.

At every other second, we just multiply .25 * 5 = 1.25 shots per second per Jedi on average. Again, this is easy to deflect.

Lets say that the HK roids concentrate their fire against fewer targets to kill more of the Jedi, since a Jedi obviously can't block ten shots per second. If so, what do you think the other 150 Jedi are going to be doing? Drinking tea? They can simply rip the guns from the HK droids hands, which would be easy for them to do if they aren't being fired at. ESB Luke used the force to the same extend when he lifted the rocks off the ground.

Originally posted by Wesker
Firing every other second, 2,000 blasts could be loosed in a very short amount of time if they're firing for saturation. (100 HKs, 5 shots per second, ever other second fired = 2,000 rounds in 8-10 seconds, optimally).

Again, that's not impossible for a Jedi to deflect. Not even all that hard, really. 2,000 / 200 = 10 shots per Jedi over ten seconds. Again, that's slower then ROTJ Luke. We saw many of the Jedi on Geonosis deflect fire much faster then this in ep2. Again, it's very possible for the Jedi to pull this off.

Originally posted by Wesker
And really, do you think that with that kind of firepower coming straight at the jedi they're all going to react perfectly and just... reflect it all? If reflecting blaster bolts using Niman was -that- good, they wouldn't have charged to close the gap. At home I have an animation showing them charging to close the gap, but of course I can't post it while at work.

They did charge to close the gap, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't still reflect blaster bolts. Notice that no one was killed in that first charge either(I didn't see anyone at least). The reason they would charge in is perfectly tactical, even I can see that. Rather then just deflecting blaster bolts, now they can limit the amount of droids that can get a shot at them and attack with both their blades and reflected bolts.

Originally posted by Wesker
What I see happening is the HKs opening up with a tremendous first volley. Jedi drop. The jedi will likely lose members in this volley (Since the average Niman jedi is not fit for much combat), and they do one of two things... Either the jedi bunch together and try and defend while charging (Which presents a huge target and minimizes their effective lightsaber blocking range since they're so close together), or they fragment and run across the field one at a time, in which case the HK start to bracket them in with fire and then take them down as they approach.

??? I already have shown that your tremendous first volley requires less to defend against then your average farm boy with a few months of training could. If Luke could keep a cool head, why can these guys? They are far better trained and experinced at deflecting blaster fire. Luke was able to take down 19 guys in ROTJ on the Sail Barge by himself. It really makes no sense that for a group that includes greats like Mace, Obi-wan, Luminara, Vos, Bulq, Plo Koon, and Fisto to be weaker then that.

If the Jedi group together, they still have the abilty to deflect many blaster bolts. Only a few of the Jedi die, after that the HK droids get pwned when the mass of Jedi reaches them a few seconds later(remember that the maximum range of a Mandalorian Heavy Repeater is 28m according to KOTOR, which takes about 8 seconds to walk across).

If the Jedi make a rampant charge for the HK droids, then the HK droids get pwned big time. Now, my 40m time is 5.39 seconds and I'm not an especially fast guy. That means that I could cover 28m in less then for seconds. If using force speed, which roughly doubles a person's speed, that number becomes less then two seconds. The Hk droids get less then 2 seconds before the Jedi are on them, hacking them to pieces. The Jedi suffer losses no greater then 50, as it would take at least that many HK droids firing at a single Jedi to kill him.

Originally posted by Wesker
Any jedi who gets within the HK lines will do some damage, but the others will likely turn on him and rip loose. Again, the Mandalorian Repeater does 4-5 rounds -per trigger pull-, so most jedi won't be able to contend with that while running forward. And keep in mind that the shots aren't tightly

Again, the HK droids only get one opportunity to fire between when the Jedi enter the HK droids range and when the Jedi are all over them in melee combat. Since I have already shown why Jedi can block attacks from a single Jedi, we know that it will take at least 2 HK droids to even have a chance of taking down a Jedi. That means that at most 50 Jedi die and once the Jedi get to the HK droids, victory is secured for the Jedi.

Originally posted by Wesker
No, you're wrong. It's an improper comparison. Luke was alone, versus one speederbike trooper whose gun fired straight at him with about 3-6 shots total in a much shorter time. This is a few hundred jedi versus a hundred armed killing machines firing rounds in excess of that dozens of times over per second. No comparison. You proved... nothing.

Luke was also an inexperinced farm boy who had blocked live blaster bolts maybe three or four times before then. As I said before, it will only take 2 seconds or less for the Jedi to get from the point at which they enter the HK droids range to when they are at the HK droids hacking them to pieces.

T3-M4 killed thre HK-50s by himself.

Yeah, HK-50's, models far inferior to HK-47.

Although HK-47 got stunned by T3, when he had his back turned...

If they were inferior, why would they make them and not HK-47 units?

Because:

1) HK has far more experience.

The HK-50's simply do not have war experience at all. The Droid Factory itself has no training facilities whatsover and G0-T0 didn't have the original schematics availible either.

The HK-50s gave the Exile a run for his money though.

Woopdie doo... HK-47 killed Jedi for a living, alone. HK 50's worked in groups and still did not manage to kill or capture a Jedi, even when that Jedi was still a noob.

Yeah, he's a Jedi and Sith killer.

The Exile is a noob? No.

He isn't?

He has been without the force for years when he encountered the first HK 50.. Okay he had two other people there, but then not much later he landed on Telos and again fought HK 50's, and they were destroyed by an old woman that never used her full power, by the exile and by Atton a blaster user.

HK47 would have destroyed them all, or would at least have forced Kreia to ues more of her force powers to destroy or stop the droid. Fact is if those droids were as good as HK then the Exile would have been captured on Peragus and Kreia would have been dead along with Atton.

The Darkside version beat the most powerful masters of the Jedi Order. Then if you look at the Lightside version, he is always getting complimented about him being the most gifted student, and how he learns so quickly.