Marka Ragnos, DN Luke and Exar Kun Run the Guantlet

Ok and at the same time, are the massassi warriors somehow more powerful than the Vong? There is no evidence that he used emerald lightning on force users you're right but doesn't mean he can't. Defeating an army of Vong with a lightsaber is an impressive feat no matter how you take it. Any evidence that Kun would be able to blast Luke? We were just discussing sheer force power, obviously manipulating black holes is irrelavant in a fight, but Luke has shown superior force abilities. That's all we have to work with since everything else is inconclusive..

Originally posted by Illustrious
Like what? Controlling a black hole? That's irrelevant to the fight, Luke's not going to up and summon a black hole while he is engaging Kun. Besides, Kyp duplicated the feat, it's not quite as impressive.

Swinging a lightsaber really fast according to Jaina? Is this definitively faster than Kun? Is faster definitively better? Dooku didn't have the fastest saber in the series, but he seemed to do alright.

Luke used emerald lightning. On a non-force user. Can he do it on Kun? Doubtful. Kun has an attack that instantly throttled Odan-Urr, a respected and revered Jedi Master who probably has forgotten more than most NJO/DN Jedi know.

He hacked his way through an army of Vong? Are the Vong stronger than Kun's Massassi? Give me the evidence of that. The Massassi submitted to Kun unquestionably.

Is Luke just the best saberist ever or something? He beat Supreme Overlord Shimrra. Is he superior to Vodo? Odan? How?

And then comparing feats is just pointless. As mentioned, Luke has dozens of books compared to Kun's comics. If feats were all that mattered, than Ragnos wouldn't even be as impressive as Lando. Despite being the highest figure of the Sith.

What I'm asking for is context. Until the context is there, the argument is inconclusive.

Ohh I can answer one of those

For the rest I completely agree

Originally posted by tdtd
Ok and at the same time, are the massassi warriors somehow more powerful than the Vong? There is no evidence that he used emerald lightning on force users you're right but doesn't mean he can't. Defeating an army of Vong with a lightsaber is an impressive feat no matter how you take it. Any evidence that Kun would be able to blast Luke? We were just discussing sheer force power, obviously manipulating black holes is irrelavant in a fight, but Luke has shown superior force abilities. That's all we have to work with since everything else is inconclusive..

I'm not saying I put the Massassi as more powerful than the Vong, I'm just saying that when put in context, there's nothing to suggest the two aren't at least comparable. The massassi could take Jedi, and so could the Vong. The Massassi were tough, and so were the Vong. The Massassi had some force imbuement, the Vong... not so much. Take that how you will.

By what you say TdTd i can also assume that Kun can defeat Luke, due to the fact he had more of the Ancient Sith Knowledge, which contains extraordinary powers, such as the Scepter, Nihilus's technique. If you want to assume, then this is valid, however it isnt, so therefore your assumption is wrong.

Yes at his full potential DN Luke has shown more of his abilities and not neccesarrily a superior one, whats to say, Kun cant replicate it? Based on the feats that you have given, and adding the fact that Kun was still rather young at the age of his demise, its logical to assume that Kun had an even more superior force potential, and dont forget that Kun, learnt most Naga Sadow's Sith Magic/alchemy.

Like Illustrious said, the Amulet does not boost the user's force potential nor their force power, its only been shown to blast beams out and rip to shreds the Dark Side monsters.

Ok, Luke cut through the an entire Vong Army, however Kun, drained the life of every single Massassi Warrior, you tell me which one is the more impressive feat.

Is there any evidence that Luke will instakill Kun? In feats Luke surpasses Kun, however in reality, its only fair to compare Luke to the age of Kun, in which case it would be DE, and as it is shown DE Luke is far inferior to Kun, so thereby Kun has superior force potential and force powers, its also very logical to assume Kun at the height of his potential, far outstrippes any incarnation of Luke.

Originally posted by IKC
Pull your head out of your ass and get some reading comprehension.

LOL. You're telling me that ? How about getting some reading comprehension yourself. "The senate chamber is frozen. Forced to watch and not react." They are frozen and theirby forced not to react. So you better start reading instead off serving us wrong interpretations of the same lines over and over again. Or is the narrator wrong now because you like to have Kun doing something different ?

Sith Magic, I should say. Aleema did it. Naga did it. Both of them did it to a far greater scale than Luke could ever dream of. There is no reason to assume that Exar could not, and there's every reason to assume that he could since he had access to more than Aleema did.

Let's see. Luke did change his appearance completely in a situation that clearly had a negative effect on his force powers (being drained by the star nearby). He used illusions to hide Darth Vaders fortress on Coruscant as well as an entire planet in the dark fleet crisis - in the last case he even says that this illusion will last over an infinite amount of time. And what do you want to tell me here ? That Aleema is a far greater force user than DN Luke ? Lmao.

And it was still replicated as you have never provided context for this feat. Did he do it all at once? Did he move them very far? Did it take much effort? What's the context? How the hell does this help him in a fight?

He used the force against beings that are normally resistant to force attacks and turned them against their own forces destroying them.

Beating a bunch of non-force-sensitives wielding physical objects rather than lightsabers? Great. So how about the Massassi that Kun blasted apart, some of which were shown to drop Jedi with bare hands?

Beating a bunch (thousands of beings = "a bunch"😉 of force resistant creatures belonging to a race of warriors that has taken over an entire Galaxy, with armours and weapons resistant to lightsaber hits is of course less impressive than blasting a few Massasi apart with a force based weapon able to rip through massive walls.

Yes, I'm sure Luke's improved since his record-breaking strikeout days, but without formal training with opponents who are better than him, he progressed at a slower rate and there's nothing to suggest that he's better with the lightsaber than Kun, who was immersed in the forms of the Old Order and created a unique weapon and style.

Great reasoning. Kun was a lightsaber prodigy and basically had no rival in terms of lightsaber fighting skills except Ulic. He - of course - had no "formal training" against people who were better than him so I wonder how he was able to improve his lightsaber skills in the matter of a few years so far that he was above anybody else. This miracously works for Kun but Luke - possesing Vodo's holocron, a vast amount of Jedi knowledge from the training vessel Chu'unthor crashed on Dathomir, as well as remains of the knowledge stored on Ossus - can't improve his lightsaber abilities much when having an entire academy of possible sparing partners (including Kyle Katarn - arguably the best mercenary seen so far even before he became a force user, Mara Jade - a trained assassin and so on) in 3 decades (which roughly equals Exar Kuns entire lifetime).

Apparently you have no sense of irony. Note how everyone you just named with the exception of Katarn was trained by Luke or his subordinates, who were still trained by Luke. I'd call him incompetant if he wasn't the best saber wielder of his little band of Jedi.

Notice how Kyle was better than Boba Fett in times of Dark Forces (so before he became a Jedi). Notice how Kyle and Jaden both went through legions of Dark Jedi - without getting trained by Luke. Notice how Luke wrecked entire armies of people throughout his career, starting with bounty hunters and criminals (SotE, ROTJ - especially the Black Sun people in SotE which were a challenge for Darth Maul according to Shadowhunter) and continuing up to the likes of DE Sidious (who had to be better than his ROTS equivalent).

So...before ROTJ Luke has been able to defeat people who were a challenge for Darth Maul (who isn't exactly the worst lightsaber wielder we know) and nearly 30 years later he still should be a relative weak lightsaber fighter ? He defeated DE Sidious (somebody who was superior to Maul, Obi-Wan and Fisto and survived Windu and Yoda when he was clearly weaker than in DE) 20 years before DN - even before starting "real" training in his Academy. Yet you still act as if he was an untrained farm boy...

As if the fact that Kun dropped both of them like they were nothing doesn't mean anything? I like how you're arguing the exact opposite points you were arguing against Lightsnake. How about some consistency?

In the debate with lightsnake I was comparing Kun to the newer Sith and Kun is stronger without a doubt. Now I'm comparing the NJO "Jedi" (or DN Luke in this case) to the other Jedi we've seen so far. Do you really want to argue that Vodo or Odan - who were tooled by Exar - could have defeated DE Sidious ? And they were fighting ancient Sith Lords ? Vodo sure as hell didn't as he was born 400 years after the Great Hyperspace War and Odan could just have confronted minor Sith Lords since the "big guys" were already defeated.

Your speculation as to the effects of creating illusions outside of his sphere is moot. You have no proof to ground it on and evidence speaks against you: Aleema could create far greater tangible illusions than Luke ever did, and she never had access to said sphere. QED.

I didn't see Aleema hiding a planet from view for an infinite amount of time without concentration but I have read the Black Fleet trilogy and I have seen that some minor force user (compared to Luke 15+ years before DN) managed to triple the amounts of ships in the New Republics 5th fleet by creating illusions. As it seems creating illusions isn't exactly the greatest indication of power.

And if they only figured they needed a few or even a hundred, why did they send the call out to all Jedi in the galaxy to meet above the skies of Yavin 4 and use the Wall of Light power, hm? The answer to your question can only be speculation because there's no proof for any concrete answer.

Why did the Rebels send an entire fleet to destroy the second Death Star when they knew that this can be done with a single starfighter ? Of course the answer can only be speculation - on the same level that it's speculation that they needed (or just thought they would need) any Jedi left in the Galaxy to deal with Kun.

@Illustrious:

Like what? Controlling a black hole? That's irrelevant to the fight, Luke's not going to up and summon a black hole while he is engaging Kun. Besides, Kyp duplicated the feat, it's not quite as impressive.

We're talking about force power here. Luke controlled - several - black holes able to throw moons around, Kyp didn't do the same he just did it with one of the doving basals more easily than Luke did with a greater number. And Kyp has displayed a huge amount of force potential compared to the other NJO people.

Swinging a lightsaber really fast according to Jaina? Is this definitively faster than Kun? Is faster definitively better? Dooku didn't have the fastest saber in the series, but he seemed to do alright.

Yoda appears to be the fastest fighter in the PT and he also seems to be the best. And Jaina stated that she (as a trained Jedi) wasn't able to see Luke's physical form any longer it just seems as if Luke was wielding 20 lightsabers while - in fact - only wielding one at that point. That indicates that he was moving faster than even Yoda and - while doing that - still moving precise enough to cut down slayers with one strike each.

Luke used emerald lightning. On a non-force user. Can he do it on Kun? Doubtful. Kun has an attack that instantly throttled Odan-Urr, a respected and revered Jedi Master who probably has forgotten more than most NJO/DN Jedi know.

Luke used emerald lightning on a being that was mostly resistant to any force attacks. Can Kun use his amulet blasts to kill a force-user as we have never seen him doing that ? Doubtful. Can he take down DN Luke as easily as he did with 1000-year-old-Odan who himself thought that he was beaten because he was old - when Luke was able to block a force attack powered by the combined potential of the inhabitants of 375 planets ?

And the NJO/DN people had of course less knowledge than Odan. On the other side: What kind of knowledge did Odan have ?

- the "cut force connection" ability was used by Kyle Katarn against Jerec in "Jedi Knight" (and then Katarn used the same trick on himself in the end of MotS - he basically pulled an Exile).
- Luke had access to Vodo's holocron (KotoR time knowledge), some stuff from Ossus (pre KotoR time knowledge), everything DE Sidious owned (PT Jedi knowledge, huge amounts of Sith Lore)

He hacked his way through an army of Vong? Are the Vong stronger than Kun's Massassi? Give me the evidence of that. The Massassi submitted to Kun unquestionably.

The normal Vong (as mentioned in the NJO) is twice as strong as a trained soldier. Their warrior caste is stronger and on top of that are the slayers and the Surpreme Overlord.
I guess people with biological-engineered bodies in lightsaber resistant armor wielding lightsaber resistant weapons are quite more of a threat to a Jedi compared to Massassi. And Luke took down hundrets or thousands of YVs in melee combat, wasted 8 slayers at once were one was too much for Kyp Durron just to take down their Supreme Overlord.
I mean...look at a picture of Nom Anor:

That guy is quite comperable to Sadow's mutated Massassi. And he belonged to the physically weaker intendant caste meaning he basically was a politician. Now if that is a "non warrior" in terms of Yuuzhan Vong the members of the warrior caste, the slayers and the Supreme Overlord must be quite more powerful compared to Massassi.

Is Luke just the best saberist ever or something?

He has beaten DE Sidious in a lightsaber duel 20 years before DN. If you think about the fact that a less powerful Sidious in ROTS could only get beaten by Yoda, Mace and possibly Dooku (so 3 out of 10,000 people - when guys like Obi-Wan, Darth Maul and Kit Fisto weren't a match for him) that places even DE Luke on a quite high rang among lightsaber duellists. Now in DN Luke has gone through 2 other decades training with the force and with lightsabers and some nice little conflicts. When he was on a level with people like Mace, Sidious and Yoda 20 years before that I wonder were he has gotten in the NJO or in DN with another 15-20 years of additional training and combat experience.

I'm not saying that he can tool Kun in a lightsaber duel but it seems as if he's clearly among the top lightsaber duellist - given how he disarmed (literally) DE Sidious 20 years before DN and without the experiece he most likely gained from the founding of his academy on and how he's descriped while fighting in the NJO series.
That's not even talking about his force powers which are - look at it like you want - unbelieveable in the very few situations in which we get a look at what he can do. It took the power of dozens of Jedi to defend against Raynar's attacks from a huge distance - Luke confronted him directly and could deal with Raynar's power (which was the combined potential of 375 planets filled with Killiks and normal people) on his own.

I agree completely with Borborad and somewhat with Illustrious. However Illustrious, who are we to state the true potential of Kun. For all we know he reached it then and there. With that argument I can just say that Luke is a Skywalker so his potential is way beyond Kun. Now I'm not saying Luke can defeat Kun in lightsaber combat but even in DE Leia says that she cannot see Luke in his epic battle with Sidious, she just sees 2 colors because it's too fast. Is there any evidence that Kun can move nearly as fast as Luke? I think not.

Hm. One thing I'd like to comment on, Nai- Illustrious has talked on this before, and it makes sense in light of Glentract's theory on DE Sidious' power (Since he drained all of Byss)... and that is that while such power may add or boost an individual, there's no way of knowing how is stacks nor is there any point to assume it stacks linearly. In other wise, instead of saying it's Sidious + 6 billion Byssians or whatever, it may only take energy from said Byssians and just augment his own to an unknown but higher level. Instead of assuming the highest possible level of power, it's better to put it into context of exactly what was done and [/bhow[/b].

Take the example of Sidious again: while he was imbued with this power of combined peoples, he did not reach out and crush everything with his sheer force power (Which would seem to be the case). He did not stop Luke and Leia in place and smoosh them like fudge. Same thing with this Raynar... What did he do? a force push? Why not a force crush? Why didn't he just rip up the ground and enclose Luke in it? And why would Luke have more combined power than all that?

Originally posted by tdtd
I agree completely with Borborad and somewhat with Illustrious. However Illustrious, who are we to state the true potential of Kun. For all we know he reached it then and there. With that argument I can just say that Luke is a Skywalker so his potential is way beyond Kun. Now I'm not saying Luke can defeat Kun in lightsaber combat but even in DE Leia says that she cannot see Luke in his epic battle with Sidious, she just sees 2 colors because it's too fast. Is there any evidence that Kun can move nearly as fast as Luke? I think not.

So Skywalker is automatically the highest possible potential of any person.... why?

Cuz Anakin was teh chusen 1?????

Please.

Wesker, common knowledge states that anakin DID have the highest possible potential lol, haven't you seen episodes 1-3? And I was simply stating that if you're going to say that Kun possibly had more potential than Luke which is unknown and unlikely, then I can refute that by stating that Luke is a Skywalker. Also, I've never even see a force crush outside of a video game, so I don't know where it originated from and who uses it. But we see Luke's power from the books, his power is clear and definite.

Anakin has been stated to have the highest potential in the post-Ruusan era. Midichlorian counts weren't taken before. He's probably well up there, but assuming he's the only one up there is arguing from ignorance.

No I'm not assuming he's the only one, I'm just stating the he WAS the chosen one. Of course Star Wars could be like the Matrix and could have 7 chosen ones, IE Revan, then Anakin, who knows. My point is if you're going to argue something like Exar Kun having more potential than Luke(which is illogical but more realistically, unproven), then I can argue that Luke is a Skywalker(stupid argument just because the Skywalker bloodline was the chosen one).

Actually, Exar Kun has displayed force powers well in excess of what Anakin has shown, making Anakin's force powers questionable in the grand scheme of things.

And full potential is a tricky phrase anyways, since it is near impossible to tell if and when each character has reached their full potential. It's like a glass of water; you might fill it up, you might not.

Very true Exar Kun DID display stuff Anakin did, and Kun had the access to Sith Knowledge and a Sith amulet. George Lucas does though clearly state that once Anakin turned to the Dark Side, he became the greatest force user in the galaxy.. Take what you will from that but my point is you're right, you can't measure potential. We know Luke reached his, and Kun may or may not have reached his.

How is it that we "know" Luke reached his? You've been saying this nonstop but you don't have any evidence for it. Remember when you said that I was wrong and Odan-Urr didn't feel Ragnos' passing across the galaxy? You even said you had the material in front of you then. And you were obviously blind or lying. So give me a page number from a specific title or stop making the claim. You're coming off as a DN Luke lover to the hilt.

Originally posted by tdtd
Very true Exar Kun DID display stuff Anakin did, and Kun had the access to Sith Knowledge and a Sith amulet. George Lucas does though clearly state that once Anakin turned to the Dark Side, he became the greatest force user in the galaxy.. Take what you will from that but my point is you're right, you can't measure potential. We know Luke reached his, and Kun may or may not have reached his.

Where did GL state this?

No, I said that Odan Urr DID feel Ragnos' passing. You're right, it is pure speculation that Luke reached his full potential in DN, according to many forums. However, what does Luke reaching his full potential or not, have to do with anything really? What is your point here? And I'm not a Luke lover, we're comparing him to Kun, I never said Luke is the greatest force user ever and is uber powerful.

Veneficus, GL stated this on the Episode III DVD

Originally posted by Wesker
How is it that we "know" Luke reached his? You've been saying this nonstop but you don't have any evidence for it. Remember when you said that I was wrong and Odan-Urr didn't feel Ragnos' passing across the galaxy? You even said you had the material in front of you then. And you were obviously blind or lying. So give me a page number from a specific title or stop making the claim. You're coming off as a DN Luke lover to the hilt.

Actually Odun Urr didn't feel Ragnos' passing. He only witnessed through the force in a dream the events at his funeral. It had nothing to do with Ragnos being so powerful that Odun Urr felt his passing through the force.

Actually no Segeeth he did indeed witness his passing, because that was the last time anyone saw the ghost of Marka Ragnos until the time of Exar Kun, so yes he did witness his passing.. And yes it does have to do with Ragnos being so powerful, that his death is felt throughout the entire galaxy.

Originally posted by Wesker
Hm. One thing I'd like to comment on, Nai- Illustrious has talked on this before, and it makes sense in light of Glentract's theory on DE Sidious' power (Since he drained all of Byss)... and that is that while such power may add or boost an individual, there's no way of knowing how is stacks nor is there any point to assume it stacks linearly. In other wise, instead of saying it's Sidious + 6 billion Byssians or whatever, it may only take energy from said Byssians and just augment his own to an unknown but higher level. Instead of assuming the highest possible level of power, it's better to put it into context of exactly [b]what was done and [/bhow[/b].

Take the example of Sidious again: while he was imbued with this power of combined peoples, he did not reach out and crush everything with his sheer force power (Which would seem to be the case). He did not stop Luke and Leia in place and smoosh them like fudge. Same thing with this Raynar... What did he do? a force push? Why not a force crush? Why didn't he just rip up the ground and enclose Luke in it? And why would Luke have more combined power than all that? [/B]

Well, Janus. The point is that what DE Sidious did is not compareable to what Raynar did. Sidious drained a part of the Byssians lifeforce - meaning he didn't use the combined force potential of the people on Byss but used only a part of their complete energy and even that he shared with other people.

Raynar was basically a focus for the combined force potential of all Killiks (and normal people) that were present on that 375 planets. Some similar thing was done in the Jedi Academy trilogy when Lukes relatively untrained students combined their potential and focused it through Dorsk 81 who used it to push Admiral Daala's attack force out of the Yavin system. And if Luke's students (8 or 10 people as far as I remember) are enough to force push a stardestroyer (or a super-stardestroyer ? I'm not sure.) and it took the combined power of dozens of trained Jedi to counter one of Raynars force attacks we can conclude that the amount of force power Raynar was wielding - even when it can't be quantified exactly - had to be quite huge. And Luke blocked that on his own.

And if I may remind you: DE Sidious did use his sheer force power and started crushing an entire fleet of ships with it until getting stopped by Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin while Raynar (and even Kun in this instance) couldn't do the same because they had to deal with a massive amount of force users on the other side (Kun with the Jedi above Yavin 4 and Raynar with the NJO).