Marka Ragnos, DN Luke and Exar Kun Run the Guantlet

Originally posted by Akechi Misuhide
Your point?

Again... your point?

Those beams were products of the amulet, not Kun. Anyways what is wrong with listing "feats" as you call them. Here...

Feat (from dictionary.com)

1. A notable act or deed, especially an act of courage; an exploit.
2. An act of skill, endurance, imagination, or strength; an achievement.
3. Obsolete. A specialized skill; a knack.

Saying that you cannot use feats in an argument is like saying that OT duelists are better than is seen because of 70s special effects. Granted there was only one comic on Kun. But that comic described and listed plenty of feats that Kun accomplished. Your trying to tell me that if there were more comics on Kun that he would have more powerful feats each comic? Fanboy garbage. What we have on Kun is plenty enough to give us a good idea of how powerful he is.

There is this gaping hole in this argument... Kun never lived to ripe old age so were not talking about a fifty year old Kun vs DN Luke. Hell we have no idea how powerful Kun would be at that age. It's like trying to measure Anakin at full potential. It cannot be done.

Nai Fohl has already proved that DN Luke is more powerful than Kun. Assuming that if more Kun comics were made that he would display feats on Luke's level is crap. Thats total speculation. Again read my above argument.

1) I stated it was speculation for one
2) I was never arguing that Kun was more powerful than DN luke, i was merely proving that DN is unable to compare to Kun, as he is much older and has reached his full potential
3) The Best comparison for Kun and Luke, would be JA or DE, whereas in both time periods, Kun abosuletely owns Skywalker

Then why is that Ragnos is crowned as the most powerful of the most powerful, whereas we have abosuletely no known knowledge of his powers? His impressive feats, are few, although they imply alot, just as Luke's feats imply he is more powerful than Kun, does not mean he is.

Luke defeated armies of Vong, this is the equalivent at most, of Kun draining all the power of the Massassi. The beams, were amplified by the amulet, however without Kun, the beams would not simply appear out of midair, so you're saying that the amulet can fire beams of his own accord?

DN luke is superior to Kun, due to being older, and more experienced, however, it cannot be stated that Luke has more skills or potential than Kun, it can only be agreed that Luke, is superior to Exar Kun, due to having more feats.

Originally posted by tdtd
Nor has anyone proved vice versa. Again I use the logic that Luke did things Sadow did, although not to the full degree, without a meditation sphere and an amulet, while Kun had an amulet. And the vong could take on the Jedi, especially the Supreme Overlord who could take on many Jedi at once, so I fail to see how you can call them better than average soldiers. And the fact that he cut down an army of Vong with just his saber is far more impressive than Kun using his trusty amulet to blast things. I agree with you that Luke was older, but we do not know how old Kun was exactly, and we do know Luke accomplished far more and showed more impressive force powers without the use of any tools like amulets and sith magic.

1) he had a Kaiburr crystal intergrated into his lightsaber, which effectly boosts his force power.

2) There was only one Sumpreme Overlord, and i was arguing for the majority of your average Vong

3) Luke did not create an Illusion of an entire fleet, he merely created copies of one or two ships

4) So now you think DN Luke > Sadow?

How can you state that Kun had to use the amulet to blast things? He is a complete unknown without the his amulet, you're speculating that Kun would be much weaker without it, but never is it stated that the amulet was required to emit those blasts, nor was it stated that the amulet boosts his force power, it merely focuses Kun's force rage, turning it more powerful than it would be otherwise.

I am not saying Kun > DN Luke, im merely stating that Kun, whilst will be defeated by DN Luke, is not infact weaker in below Luke, its by the fact, we have no idea what Kun's full potential would be, so therefore arguing that DN Luke is completely superior to Kun, in Lightsaber combat and Force Potential is wrong.

Sith Magic, is another section of the force, it was developed by the Ancient Sith, and rarely does it require any forms of ritual, it wasnt a tool, it was knowledge.

btw, when i stated about Kun, having fewer books written about Luke, it means that Kun, hasn't got every single of his abilities displayed, for all we know it may be 1/10th of his strength, or it could be half, it can only be speculated. Whereas Luke, has had his abilities, depicted, completely and word for word, it gives us a strong image of his power, but it does not neccesarrily mean that Kun cant have done similar feats.

However based on the evidence given, DN Luke is superior to Kun at his demise, but by comparing DE and JA Luke, to Kun, its logical to assume that Kun is superior to Luke in force potential, and combat skills, as Kun is the only one to have invented a unique Double Bladed Lightsaber style.

Those beams were products of the amulet, not Kun.

And as far as we can establish definitively, that and killing Freedon Nadd are the only thing that it did.

There is no proof that any of his other feats are a result of the amulet at all. If anything, there is definitive proof that Kun powered the amulet or the amulet grew with Kun.

It is completely irrelevant either, because you can not establish Kun's power without the amulet, as he went dark side as soon as he grabbed it. So anything about that point is moot speculation. Besides, it would be irrelevant anyway, because a fight between the two is not going to have Kun walking in naked.

Anyways what is wrong with listing "feats" as you call them. Here...

Feat (from dictionary.com)

1. A notable act or deed, especially an act of courage; an exploit.
2. An act of skill, endurance, imagination, or strength; an achievement.
3. Obsolete. A specialized skill; a knack.

Saying that you cannot use feats in an argument is like saying that OT duelists are better than is seen because of 70s special effects.

No it isn't. By that notion, since we see Leia beating Jabba, and we only see Ragnos' spirit floating around, Leia actually has the higher end feat.

The issue isn't that you're using a feat. Indeed, you do need feats. But you need to put them in context. I can just as easily say Bane could force storm. But then I'd be conveniently leaving out that he only conjectured that he needed help from other sith to cast a planet-wide force storm.

By this, NJO Luke controlling a black hole means what, exactly? Is he going to use this in a fight? The feat was duplicated by Kyp.

So since Aleema was able to confuse people with tangible illusions, she's at the very top? No, because she's shown to be a relative weakling, hardly on the same level as many individuals.

Granted there was only one comic on Kun. But that comic described and listed plenty of feats that Kun accomplished. Your trying to tell me that if there were more comics on Kun that he would have more powerful feats each comic? Fanboy garbage. What we have on Kun is plenty enough to give us a good idea of how powerful he is.

No, that's not the point, and you're missing it.

Luke has about 50 books, Kun (as a dark sider) has about 5 short "graphic novels" to draw feats on.

Obviously if you come up with a list, Luke would have a far greater list to draw upon. It's irrelevant, because we aren't taking a continuous sample of their abilities. Any assumed fight would be taking place at the top of their abilities, unless otherwise stated.

So you take what you see in comics, and you apply them logically in juxtaposition.

It's those people who think that Luke's feats can stand alone.

There is this gaping hole in this argument... Kun never lived to ripe old age so were not talking about a fifty year old Kun vs DN Luke. Hell we have no idea how powerful Kun would be at that age. It's like trying to measure Anakin at full potential. It cannot be done.

Notice how he never said that.

He said that since Kun was younger than Luke and accomplished more things, it's untrue and stupid to just assume that Luke Skywalker had the all-ambiguous "more potential."

That's a very logical statement.

Nai Fohl has already proved that DN Luke is more powerful than Kun. Assuming that if more Kun comics were made that he would display feats on Luke's level is crap. Thats total speculation. Again read my above argument.

Proved? Where?

He conjectured that through some of his upper end feats exceed the listed feats of Exar Kun. He assumed that because Exar Kun didn't do X, he couldn't.

That's not "proof." That's "speculation."

We don't see Kun taking a crap. Does that mean he can't do it? Kun froze the senate, walked in, and without much apparent effort, manipulated the chancellor, killed Vodo, and tossed Sylvar aside.

So we don't even see the upper limit of Exar Kun's abilities, and he was still able to rather easily defeat arguably the most revered master of the order, who could make his staff more powerful than a lightsaber.

You need to get some reading comprehension, he never stated that Kun would have performed higher feats. He stated that Kun's feats were very comparable to what Luke has done, and he did them at a younger age, ergo the argument that Luke has more potential completely doesn't apply to this argument at all.

Feat Wars is listing feats and expecting that those particular feats (without circumstance or evidence) stand alone.

It would be like me saying the following:

Revan beat Echani, beat Mandalore, and beat Malak while empowered by the Star Forge.

What are the circumstances surrounding those three victories? Unknown. What are the powers of those three individuals? Unspecified. How much power did Malak have? Uncertain.

Great. So you officially gave me three garbled feats that have no relevance as we can't establish anything from them.

You need context, I don't care if you have 2 feats or 500. If you can't establish context with them, you're done, sit down.

Got it? QED.

Originally posted by w00t2112
1) he had a Kaiburr crystal intergrated into his lightsaber, which effectly boosts his force power.

2) There was only one Sumpreme Overlord, and i was arguing for the majority of your average Vong

3) Luke did not create an Illusion of an entire fleet, he merely created copies of one or two ships

4) So now you think DN Luke > Sadow?

How can you state that Kun had to use the amulet to blast things? He is a complete unknown without the his amulet, you're speculating that Kun would be much weaker without it, but never is it stated that the amulet was required to emit those blasts, nor was it stated that the amulet boosts his force power, it merely focuses Kun's force rage, turning it more powerful than it would be otherwise.

I am not saying Kun > DN Luke, im merely stating that Kun, whilst will be defeated by DN Luke, is not infact weaker in below Luke, its by the fact, we have no idea what Kun's full potential would be, so therefore arguing that DN Luke is completely superior to Kun, in Lightsaber combat and Force Potential is wrong.

Sith Magic, is another section of the force, it was developed by the Ancient Sith, and rarely does it require any forms of ritual, it wasnt a tool, it was knowledge.

btw, when i stated about Kun, having fewer books written about Luke, it means that Kun, hasn't got every single of his abilities displayed, for all we know it may be 1/10th of his strength, or it could be half, it can only be speculated. Whereas Luke, has had his abilities, depicted, completely and word for word, it gives us a strong image of his power, but it does not neccesarrily mean that Kun cant have done similar feats.

However based on the evidence given, DN Luke is superior to Kun at his demise, but by comparing DE and JA Luke, to Kun, its logical to assume that Kun is superior to Luke in force potential, and combat skills, as Kun is the only one to have invented a unique Double Bladed Lightsaber style.

For one, the kyber crystal according to IKC was from Splinter in the Minds eye which is as far from canon as possible so that doesn't count. No I don't think DN Luke>Sadow but I don't necessarily see Sadow>DN Luke although it's possible and maybe likely, especially with his illusion trick and angry supernova blast.

Illustrious sure you can say that Kun did a lot of special things at a younger age than Luke dude, while I can argue that Luke never started Jedi training until the age that Kun perhaps died? And Kun started training early correct? So how would you refute that?

Originally posted by tdtd
For one, the kyber crystal according to IKC was from Splinter in the Minds eye which is as far from canon as possible so that doesn't count. No I don't think DN Luke>Sadow but I don't necessarily see Sadow>DN Luke although it's possible and maybe likely, especially with his illusion trick and angry supernova blast.

Illustrious sure you can say that Kun did a lot of special things at a younger age than Luke dude, while I can argue that Luke never started Jedi training until the age that Kun perhaps died? And Kun started training early correct? So how would you refute that?

When did Kun start training early? Ulic didn't. Nomi didn't. Kun isn't shown to have. Jedi training since birth isn't a TOTJ concept.

Originally posted by tdtd
For one, the kyber crystal according to IKC was from Splinter in the Minds eye which is as far from canon as possible so that doesn't count. No I don't think DN Luke>Sadow but I don't necessarily see Sadow>DN Luke although it's possible and maybe likely, especially with his illusion trick and angry supernova blast.

Illustrious sure you can say that Kun did a lot of special things at a younger age than Luke dude, while I can argue that Luke never started Jedi training until the age that Kun perhaps died? And Kun started training early correct? So how would you refute that?

As Illustrious, said Ulic didn't, and yet at the age Luke was, he performed feats that far surpassed luke in ANH, ESB and ROTJ, yet that does not prove Ulic > Luke

Note: I do not include feats such as blowing up the death star in ANH, the feats that are discussed, also have to be relevant, Luke in OT, never demonstrated any skills in lightsaber and force combat.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Proved? Where?

He conjectured that through some of his upper end feats exceed the listed feats of Exar Kun. He assumed that because Exar Kun didn't do X, he couldn't.

Raynar used force attacks that needed several dozens of Jedi to resist even when Raynar was quite far away. If Exar could have reproduced that he would have taken down the Jedi above Yavin 4 step by step. He didn't even think about something like that.

We don't see Kun taking a crap. Does that mean he can't do it? Kun froze the senate, walked in, and without much apparent effort, manipulated the chancellor, killed Vodo, and tossed Sylvar aside.

How is this a match or even close to control 375 planets filled with Killiks and other people, using their combined force potential or the guy who blocked that amount of energy ?

So we don't even see the upper limit of Exar Kun's abilities, and he was still able to rather easily defeat arguably the most revered master of the order, who could make his staff more powerful than a lightsaber.

Where is the context here ? DN Luke wrecked the most powerful people of his time or of the times of his different incarnations and he rather easily tooled an army consisting of members of an ancient warrior race that look quite much stronger compared to Kun's massassi. Could Vodo have done the same ? How strong is Odan Urr compared to DE Sidious or Raynar. No context there. So anything we have are assumptions.

Now I've provided context for Raynars power. It took 8 or 10 untrained freaks to force push stardestroyers out of a star-system. It took dozens of trained Jedi to block one of Raynars force attacks. Now logic dictates that whatever amount of power Raynar was wielding it had to be several times greater than the power that was used to force push a freaking star-destroyer backwards with velocity above speed of light. And Luke simply blocked it.

And to put that into a more scientific context (in terms of the SW universe): The energy needed to accelerate 1 KG of mass to speed of light is roughly 9E16 J (assuming that Einstein was right).

A stardestroyer has a mass of 25 mio metric tons (that was the only number I could find. Seing that the Titanic - empty - had a weight of 21.831 metric tons I guess that might fit).

That means the energy needed to accelerate a Star-Destroyer to the speed of light (combined potential of Luke's students in the JA trilogy) would roughly be 2E24 J or 2 YJ. That's the energy hitting the earth being produced by the sun in 13 days and Luke absorbed multiple times that.
Or to make it clearer: That's the energy created by 21,400,000,000 megatons of exploding TNT or 214,000,000 Hiroshima bombs or - back to SW - the combined power of 53,500,000 turbolaser shots from an Imperial Star Destroyer (number taken from stardestroyer.net were a turbolaser shot is 4 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb).

Ever seen Kun wielding such an amount of energy ? That makes at least Kuns amulet blasts look like a joke.

You need to get some reading comprehension, he never stated that Kun would have performed higher feats. He stated that Kun's feats were very comparable to what Luke has done, and he did them at a younger age, ergo the argument that Luke has more potential completely doesn't apply to this argument at all.

And the argument that Kun performed greater feats doesn't also apply because we know that the Dark Side is the quicker way to power. In fact we have seen that a 60-year-old Dark Sider is equal to a 900 year old Jedi Master. So unless Kun performed his feats in the age of 3 that greater feats in the same age can be explained by his submission to the Dark Side (and it's mentioned that this gave him a huge boost in power).
And this is not even mentioning that Luke in Kun's age had only a few weeks of training.

Yep yep I agree. I also agree that Kun performed better feats and was more powerful at his age than Luke was at his but there's no evidence when both of them started training not to mention Luke had to teach himself most of the things while Kun had access to everything. You can call them crutches or whatever but at the end Luke did a lot more than Kun with less, so yes w00t Luke>Kun but we will never know Kun's full potential til they make another comic about him.

Raynar used force attacks that needed several dozens of Jedi to resist even when Raynar was quite far away. If Exar could have reproduced that he would have taken down the Jedi above Yavin 4 step by step. He didn't even think about something like that.

Okay, and Freedon Nadd floored Vodo when he (Nadd) was in a tomb and Vodo was on his ship. He mentally floored Nomi when Nomi tried to use Battle Meditation when he was possibly miles away.

How is this a match or even close to control 375 planets filled with Killiks and other people, using their combined force potential or the guy who blocked that amount of energy ?

Demonstrate the level of these combined 375 planets. These facts need to be substantiated before you run off saying 1 + 1 = 2.

Pseudomath doesn't always apply.

Where is the context here ? DN Luke wrecked the most powerful people of his time or of the times of his different incarnations and he rather easily tooled an army consisting of members of an ancient warrior race that look quite much stronger compared to Kun's massassi. Could Vodo have done the same ? How strong is Odan Urr compared to DE Sidious or Raynar. No context there. So anything we have are assumptions.

And at the same time, Luke needed help to push Sidious' storm back on him. He was thrown around by Raynar who cracked his helmet. Did Kun (as a dark lord) ever show himself to be threatened to such a level?

Short answer: No.

You still fail to make a point.

Now I've provided context for Raynars power. It took 8 or 10 untrained freaks to force push stardestroyers out of a star-system. It took dozens of trained Jedi to block one of Raynars force attacks. Now logic dictates that whatever amount of power Raynar was wielding it had to be several times greater than the power that was used to force push a freaking star-destroyer backwards with velocity above speed of light. And Luke simply blocked it.

And to put that into a more scientific context (in terms of the SW universe): The energy needed to accelerate 1 KG of mass to speed of light is roughly 9E16 J (assuming that Einstein was right).

A stardestroyer has a mass of 25 mio metric tons (that was the only number I could find. Seing that the Titanic - empty - had a weight of 21.831 metric tons I guess that might fit).

That means the energy needed to accelerate a Star-Destroyer to the speed of light (combined potential of Luke's students in the JA trilogy) would roughly be 2E24 J or 2 YJ. That's the energy hitting the earth being produced by the sun in 13 days and Luke absorbed multiple times that.
Or to make it clearer: That's the energy created by 21,400,000,000 megatons of exploding TNT or 214,000,000 Hiroshima bombs or - back to SW - the combined power of 53,500,000 turbolaser shots from an Imperial Star Destroyer (number taken from stardestroyer.net were a turbolaser shot is 4 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb).

Ever seen Kun wielding such an amount of energy ? That makes at least Kuns amulet blasts look like a joke.

And again, these physics concepts when applied to an abstraction as the force need to be substantiated.

How many "joules" does... Battle Meditation require?

When has the force been shown to be a tangible force (in Newtons)? If that was the case, people pushed of the force would find pressure from one area of their body. Has that ever happened?

Has it ever been established that the force applied would be a tangible amount of energy (in units such as joules)? Again. No.

Show me where on earth force has ever been quantified in Joules, Newtons, Coulombs, or any other SI unit. Please.

If that was true, why didn't the star destroyer litterally crumble against the force?

If Raynar pushed Luke with that level of power, how come he only flew back into the wall, instead of through the wall? He sure didn't move at lightspeed when Raynar caught him off guard and pushed him.

Again, you're attempting to quantify force with SI units, again, show me where The Force (described as the living essence that flows through all people) has ever been quantified in any SI unit.

As for making Kun's amulet blast look like a joke, we'd have to know the consistency of the Sith beast.

Either way, I consider blowing large chunks of flesh clean off of an ancient Sith Beast > Pushing a human body into a wall fast enough to break a helmet. Again, relevant context.

And the argument that Kun performed greater feats doesn't also apply because we know that the Dark Side is the quicker way to power. In fact we have seen that a 60-year-old Dark Sider is equal to a 900 year old Jedi Master. So unless Kun performed his feats in the age of 3 that greater feats in the same age can be explained by his submission to the Dark Side (and it's mentioned that this gave him a huge boost in power).
And this is not even mentioning that Luke in Kun's age had only a few weeks of training.

By that logic, Luke going dark side in DE would have made him a verifiable god. That sure didn't happen.

Kyp only had a year (according to the timeline) of training before he took on a Leviathan. I guess that makes him > Luke.

Again, you're spewing examples, but never once do you put them in relevant context for comparison purposes.

You're right Illustrious, freezing a few thousand, maybe hundred thousand at most, members of the senate is way more impressive than controlling planets and manipulating black holes, creating illusions, etc... You still fail to make a point how Kun would defeat DN Luke. Either join up with IKC to once again elevate Kun's status, or get off the Exar Kun bandwagon..

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right Illustrious, freezing a few thousand, maybe hundred thousand at most, members of the senate is way more impressive than controlling planets and manipulating black holes, creating illusions, etc... You still fail to make a point how Kun would defeat DN Luke. Either join up with IKC to once again elevate Kun's status, or get off the Exar Kun bandwagon..

Where did I ever post that I was on the Exar Kun bandwagon? Not everyone here is a troll who's sole purpose is to try to not-so-subtly boost up Luke.

When did Luke "control" a planet. Give me the book/page numbers.

Manipulating black holes was duplicated by Kyp Durron. And again, how is this relevant? Hint: It's not.

Creating Illusions? Aleema created illusions on Luke's scale. Is Aleema > Luke?

Please.

Kun froze the senate.. Joruus controlled 37,000 people. So Joruus > Kun? Please..

Plus I got it from The essential Star Wars chronology. You can find random things about it on the internet if you don't have the book. The other source was, and call it S canon or whatever crap you guys come up with, Wikipedia.

Originally posted by tdtd
Kun froze the senate.. Joruus controlled 37,000 people. So Joruus > Kun? Please..

Plus I got it from The essential Star Wars chronology. You can find random things about it on the internet if you don't have the book. The other source was, and call it S canon or whatever crap you guys come up with, Wikipedia.

I was making fun of your logic for not putting the feats in context. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

So we see Luke control a black hole. Kyp did it too. How does that have any effect whatsoever on the fight?

I'm just saying stop arguing out of ignorance and bias because I don't see Luke as being more impressive than Kun, or vice versa necesarily.

I'm not arguing out of bias dude, there is nothing to suggest either one of them can defeat each other in any type of combat, which is why you have to bring out Exhibit B. Force abilities. That's where the feats come in. Luke has displayed more impressive force abilities but does that mean he's better? Not necessarily but you can logically assume it.

Originally posted by tdtd
I'm not arguing out of bias dude, there is nothing to suggest either one of them can defeat each other in any type of combat, which is why you have to bring out Exhibit B. Force abilities. That's where the feats come in. Luke has displayed more impressive force abilities but does that mean he's better? Not necessarily but you can logically assume it.

I already showed how ridiculously unsound these feats can be. Kyp also controlled a black hole, is he superior to Kun? Aleema created more advanced illusions than Luke, is she > Luke?

The difference in this argument is that IKC has at least brought in scans and quotes and put them in legitimate context (even if they are a bit distorted). The Luke supporters have failed to do so except bring up contextless feats and vague abstractions such as "he swung his saber as if 20, zOMG."

So how would you explain Emerald Lightning and going through an army of VOng?

Originally posted by tdtd
So how would you explain Emerald Lightning and going through an army of VOng?

I'm going to make it clearer to you, as you obviously have a hard time with reading comprehension:

Put it in context.

As i have stated, it took, Luke, 20 years to reach his full potential, comparing DN Luke to Kun is biased, and while i've made a thread about it, this thread is not about Kun > Luke or Luke > Kun, the most comparable figures is DE, JA Luke to Kun, indeed Luke may have displayed greater abilities, yet he took many years to achieve it, however Kun, met his doom before he had even reached his full potential, yet, Kun displays feats on par with DN Luke, he just doesnt display as much feats, it doesnt mean DN Luke > Kun, it merely means Kun was more of an unknown, if Kun had equal amount of books, and references about him, as DN Luke it would be a much fairer comparison.

Hell Kun may have been able to blow up stars if he reached his full potential, yet this cannot count because he is unknown at full potential.

Once again, do not use feat listing to prove that another character is stronger than another, because its pointless and proves, what the character did, but not whether he is superior or not.

Originally posted by tdtd
So how would you explain Emerald Lightning and going through an army of VOng?

Okay, and Nomi was able to completely strip a powerful Jedi/Sith from the force. I think that beats instant-killing a non-force user.

Your point?

Do you honestly think Nomi would beat Exar in a fight?

How does half those feats you listed help Luke at all?

Does controlling a black hole help him? No. He sure won't be controlling a black hole while fighting off Exar Kun.

Does "controlling a planet" help him (the closest I came up with this feat is cloaking a planet, not controlling it and the sentient life aboard)? No. It's a versus match anyway.

Does being able to shoot emerald lightning help him? Unspecified, because Kun is a force user with access to more offensive force powers. Will he be able to instantkill Kun? I highly doubt that, as he isn't exactly shown using that against a force user, or using it in another context when it would have saved his ass.

Does "swinging his lightsaber like it's 20 blades" help him? Establish and quantify how effective that was. Again, you have Jaina's hyperbolic words with no context.

In short, you've proven nothing except list feats. Refer to IKC's "Feat Wars" sig if you need any more proof on how ridiculous that is.

Right, you guys(especially IKC)provide feats for Kun and I counter with DN Luke's feats. Yea Kun died while DN Luke lived to defeat the most powerful enemies time after time, so youre going to discredit Luke for living? And Illustrious you keep telling me I haven't proven anything about Luke defeating Kun, yet I've still seen no evidence about Kun being on par with Luke.