DN Luke Runs a Short Guantlet

Originally posted by tdtd
I am being unbiased but it's logical for me to say that Luke could stop his amulet blasts because he stopped an AT-AT blast. You can say that emerald lightning might not even be an effective weapon against Kun and I can say when has Kun shown the ability to block something like Luke's own weapon?
You're sayin Kun's blasts are different so I can say we've never seen him use his blasts on a living force user, so what makes you think he's going to be able to use it on Luke?

No, the thing is, you have to prove that Luke's emerald lightning is even a viable attack first, before the Kun supporters have to prove that he can block it.

We can't prove that Luke can't use emerald lightning on Kun, that's asking us to prove a negative and is logical fallacy.

You have to establish that Luke can block Kun's blast, we just have to establish that Kun can use it. Again, it's not logical to assume that because the attacks are different in nature.

Like I said, an electrical attack will vary from a light/laser-based attack, do you think you can stop them both in the same manner? Hardly.

What makes you think that he'll be able to use it on Luke? You have to establish that he can't use it on Luke as a Luke supporter, not me. I'll say, what makes Luke special? Is his skin somehow not going to vaporize if the beam hits him when it vaporizes everything else?

Here's something that you guys are not quite understanding. The beam shows clear and concrete physical effects. It blasted through walls, tore apart massassi, and blew holes in the Sith beast.

The Emerald lightning did not show any physical effects. The Vong simply dropped. There was no burns, no punctures, lacerations, nothing to suggest that it would work on anything else.

See the difference? Unless Luke somehow can prevent the beam from vaporizing him, it's different than his lightning. You have to establish that Luke can survive the beam, you can't expect me to prove that the beam can burst through Luke's defenses, that's logical fallacy.

I've studied this through and through Nai and I'm in agreement with Illustrious.

Although I lack the knowledge of most of the post-ROTJ EU Universe, anyone who is literate and obtains two eyes can see you're posts mostly contain unfounded assumptions.

Except now you're throwing out random crap to make yourself look dumb.. This is an argument between me and illustrious so unless you have anything interesting to say(which you don't), stay out. Now..

Why is it that I have to prove Luke's emerald blasts would work on Kun first? Since when is there an order in this? Luke's blast was never used on a force user but as borbarad said, it created so much energy that it was able to instantly kill the Vong. Now that kind of energy and Kun's blasts are different kinds of energy, sure.. However again, Luke was able to block a powerful AT-AT blast, that breaks through everything, which makes it a very logical assumption that Kun's blast could get blocked too, unless of course you somehow think it's more powerful than an AT-AT blast. Then again, you can't prove that Kun can even use his amulet blasts on a force user, much less use it again period.

Originally posted by tdtd
Except now you're throwing out random crap to make yourself look dumb.. This is an argument between me and illustrious so unless you have anything interesting to say(which you don't), stay out. Now..

Why is it that I have to prove Luke's emerald blasts would work on Kun first? Since when is there an order in this? Luke's blast was never used on a force user but as borbarad said, it created so much energy that it was able to instantly kill the Vong. Now that kind of energy and Kun's blasts are different kinds of energy, sure.. However again, Luke was able to block a powerful AT-AT blast, that breaks through everything, which makes it a very logical assumption that Kun's blast could get blocked too, unless of course you somehow think it's more powerful than an AT-AT blast. Then again, you can't prove that Kun can even use his amulet blasts on a force user, much less use it again period.

I hope to Jesus Christ that you weren't talking to me.

I am, since you seem to think anyone who is literate and obtains two eyes can see my posts mostly contain unfounded assumptions. I don't quite know what literacy has to do with this but I'm just going to logically assume you were trying your best to sound smart without any basis whatsoever.

Originally posted by tdtd
I am, since you seem to think anyone who is literate and obtains two eyes can see my posts mostly contain unfounded assumptions. I don't quite know what literacy has to do with this but I'm just going to logically assume you were trying your best to sound smart without any basis whatsoever.

Wow. You just can't read, can you?

I was talking to Nai Fohl.

AKA Borbarad.

Try checking shit before you decide to jump to conclusions and insult others.

I'll let you off the hook this time.

Originally posted by Lörd Sorgo
I've studied this through and through Nai and I'm in agreement with Illustrious.

Although I lack the knowledge of most of the post-ROTJ EU Universe, anyone who is literate and obtains two eyes can see you're posts mostly contain unfounded assumptions.

My apologies, I didn't even know what NAI was..

Originally posted by tdtd
My apologies, I didn't even know what NAI was..

If you click on his profile, It's his previous username.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Really? Is that why you insist upon the Vong being entirely immune to the force, such as being resistant to lightning and telekinesis.

If they were only "cut off" from the force, they could still be thrown around with the force just like a rock or any other physical object.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. On-panel exhibition demonstrates that the Vong are substantially different, especially in the ways they respond to the force.

Ok. Let me set that straight. Vong are cut off from the force (can't use it) and don't have midichlorians (so the force can't be used against them directly). But they do have some sort of midichlorians which can only be manipulated by people who have Vongsense...which leads me to the next point:

You're the one that's misunderstanding here. You have not established that there was any physical nature of the ability.

Are you simply refusing to understand it ? The only way to manipulate Vong with force energy directly is to have Vongsense. Luke didn't have that. So the only way for him to kill a Vong would be generating physical energy via force use since he can't do anything else.

That means he must either have manipulated the surrounding of the Vong (example: Turn the air into something hard and crush the Vong with it...something like that) or he did "overwrite" their immunity to force attacks with his force powers (as I said - force lightning wasn't enough to do so).

There is simply no other way for Luke to use the force against Vong other than generating physical energy / effects since he couldn't affected them via force energy (because he doesn't have Vongsense) directly. Did you understand that now ?

Yes there is. The Sith beasts presumably would also have musculature and nervous systems. However, they were simply vaporized by the blast.

So musculature and nervous systems are now "specific Sith beast functions" that can only be found in Sith beasts ? Are you now trying to tell me that Kun can't use his amulet to other things than Sith temples (specific Sith temple function = being made of stone), Sith spirits (specific Sith spirit function = unknown), and Massassi (specific Massasi function = getting pwned by Kun) and because of that there is no proof and not even a base to speculate about Kun being able to use the amulet on Jedi, Metal or virtually anything else than Massassi, Sith spirits and Sith beasts because the "specific functions" aren't matching ?

Unless you're saying there is something special about Luke to prevent his skin and body structure from being vaporized we're done here.

Two words: The force. He obviously wasn't vaporized by an AT-AT shot.

Again, never was "The Force" ever correlated with anything "physical" about it, some manifestations have physical affects, which you, conveniently, failed to establish here.

Why should I establish things that were thrown into the discussion by you and IKC ? That's your job and not mine.

No, please read, I said the Vong were not immune to physical manifestations of the force. So if Luke's lightning was a physical manifestation of the force, it would be no more difficult to block than other physical manifestations, which Kun has shown to be able to do.

a) You and IKC came up with the physical affects of force lightning. I said that Vong simply ignored them. So if you want to remain on that position you have to acknowledge that the physical affects of Luke's emerald lightning are multiple times stronger than the one of force lightning. That was your own idea and not mine. Because:

b) For my position it doesn't matter if Luke hit the Vong with a physical effect (or Side-effect) or with a force energy effect - he either produced far greater physical effects than people using force lightning (see above) or he applied an instakill via force energy against a being which is immune to said energy.

c) Where has Kun shown the ability to block physical manifestations of the force, huh ? Did somebody attack him with force lightning when I wasn't watching or did I just miss the physical component of the "block people from the force attack" ?

Also, your second assumption is BS. You're still using the same rhetoric that since Luke could instakill A, he could instakill B.

No. You missunderstood me there. My point is that Luke can use the technique against Kun - without knowing if he can do that sucessfully. While you are simply trying to ignore all given facts with your statement that "The technique might be designed to kill Vong". That's outright impossible - see above.

Okay. Since Vader could kill a non-force user with choke, he could kill Ragnos. Bring logic into your debate, or sit down.

Can Vader try to use force choke on Ragnos or is that a force technique designed to kill non-force users with "specific non-force user functions" ?

So tell me, how did Luke manage to instakill a Vong? He didn't drain them like Traya, they weren't part of the force to begin with. He didn't choke them like Kun, as you keep trying to play the Vong are immune to all force attacks.

Wait, you have no idea WTF Luke's emerald sparks even are, but they will work on Kun? They will work on Ragnos? They will work on Artoo? Honestly, where are you getting this shit?

Again...USE them is not automatically USE THEM SUCESSFULLY.

And if you ask for my personal opinion about "Emerald Lightning" I think it's "Electrical Judgement" (Plo Koon's light-side force lightning) with Luke's personal signature (emerald visible effects) with power (either force power or physical effects) far above force lightning (which has never instakilled anybody).

So can Luke use that on Kun ? Yes. Can he do that sucessfully ? Debateable - but unless you show me that Kun's force defence easily trumps Yoda's (who had problems with defending against a less powerful technique by a less powerful force user) I say yes. But in this case that probably won't result in an instakill but instead in a weakened / wounded Kun.

Bullshit. All energy is the same?

Please, keep consistent and learn physics. Different forms of energy have different properties. Different properties mean different manners to deal with them. Different manners to deal with them mean that the premise for your argument must be DIFFERENT.

Capiesch? Or do you want it broken down further?

You're comparing apples to oranges. Kun uses his amulets in the very same way a conventional weapon is used in the SW universe. Now you see a difference between energy used to detonate a building and energy used to blast through a temple because in the first case we have "electical" energy and in the second case we have "force" energy. Both attacks do have a pure physical component unless you want to tell me that the temple wall Kun blasted through was constructed out of living material.
Now as it seems the raw physical power behind Kun's blast was less than that of a AT-AT shot or turbolaser fire from a Stardestroyer. Can you tell me again why somebody who blocked the latter two wouldn't be able to block the first. Ah yes:

Oh, and I guess you failed to mention that plasma is a form of matter. Ergo, it would be far easier to stop a plasma attack than a purely energy/magical based attack.

Yeah...because plasma is ionized gas, in case of turbolasers: ionized gas shot towards a target with velocity above speed of light with enough power to vaporize asteroids. Was Kun's force beam visible ? Yes ? I hate to tell you but in this case it would be ionized gas (air) aka plasma charged by force energy and since it's plasma Luke can block it.

Also, they quantify that he was able to "join" with the collective minds of the Killiks, so how does this quantify that he gains all of their collective force potential? Did it ever say it was Force Illumination again? No, I don't believe so.

It was explicitly stated that the Hive's full potential (the entire potential of all beings on 375 planets including multiple trained force users) was backing Raynar's attack up.
The "Hive" is basically a single mind with Raynar as "UnuThul" (leader) and had taken parts of Raynar's personality. The "Hive" contained Killiks and so called Joiners (including Raynar himself, Jaina, Lowbacca and several other force users) from different species.
Now the entire power of that was used against Luke and he didn't just block it but in return knocked Raynar unconciousness and then sliced Lomi Plo into pieces (and Lomi had her own Nest - the Dark Nest or Gorog as backup).

And I still said that it's impossible to quantify the amount of power exactly but seeing what the part of the potential of a single planet did with Sidious force powers I fail to see why 375 times the potential (and some force users as bonues) working as backup would have a lesser effect.

Yes, you are arguing that Luke will be able to block Kun's attacks and Kun can't block Luke's.

I just argued that Kun wouldn't be able to block the entire effect of Luke's emerald lightning and not that it will make him drop dead in the same second it hits him. Obviously Kun can partitially block force attacks he doesn't know (seen when Odan tried to attack him) but it's still safer to assume that the dude with rediculous potential and 30 years of force training and combat experience has a greater chance to block force attacks (since we've SEEN that he can do it) than the guy with "some years" of force training that was in the hight of his power still put on his ass by an attack of Odan Urr.

He basically summed it up but I just want to be add what he already wrote.
A. You CAN compare the AT-AT blast to Kun's blasts because they essentially can do the same thing, unless of course you want to say Kun's blasts only killed a few creatures and spirit, in which case I'll say you have no proof his technique will work against a Jedi, much less an extremely powerful Jedi.
B. I've said this a million times but 1 more won't hurt. We can logically assume that Luke will be able to stop Kun's blasts, assuming Kun even uses it again. We can also assume that, like NAI said, Luke CAN use his lightning on Kun since Kun wasn't shown to have stopped something that powerful, but to what degree we don't know.

Originally posted by tdtd
He basically summed it up but I just want to be add what he already wrote.
A. You CAN compare the AT-AT blast to Kun's blasts because they essentially can do the same thing, unless of course you want to say Kun's blasts only killed a few creatures and spirit, in which case I'll say you have no proof his technique will work against a Jedi, much less an extremely powerful Jedi.
B. I've said this a million times but 1 more won't hurt. We can logically assume that Luke will be able to stop Kun's blasts, assuming Kun even uses it again. We can also assume that, like NAI said, Luke CAN use his lightning on Kun since Kun wasn't shown to have stopped something that powerful, but to what degree we don't know.

A) You cannot, that is like comparing force storm to the eletrical lightning that a mechanic object produces, and to my knowledge it isn't enough to do the same damage to a Jedi. Essentially, you have to understand that a physical attack of the force is very different to techonogical attack
B) And when has Luke's lightning even been demonstrated to work on force sensitives? That is rather illogical, you have not proven that the lightning will work on force sensitives, Luke has never been shown to deflect an instakill that was very different from the At At blasts.

Originally posted by w00t2112
A) You cannot, that is like comparing force storm to the eletrical lightning that a mechanic object produces, and to my knowledge it isn't enough to do the same damage to a Jedi. Essentially, you have to understand that a physical attack of the force is very different to techonogical attack
B) And when has Luke's lightning even been demonstrated to work on force sensitives? That is rather illogical, you have not proven that the lightning will work on force sensitives, Luke has never been shown to deflect an instakill that was very different from the At At blasts.

A. Kun's blast wasn't an instakill.
B. Prove Kun's blasts works on a living force user, especially a powerful one like Luke.
C. I'd like to see Kun use his blast on the VONG, see if it actually works, since its a force blast specifically designed for force users..
D. I never said Luke could use his lightning on Kun effectively, just that he could use it.
E. The AT-AT blasts and the amulet blasts CAN be compared because they have shown to do the exact same thing.
F. It IS more logical to assume that if youre comparing the two, the AT-AT blast is equal to, or more powerful than Kun's amulet blast.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ok. Let me set that straight. Vong are cut off from the force (can't use it) and don't have midichlorians (so the force can't be used against them directly). But they do have some sort of midichlorians which can only be manipulated by people who have Vongsense...which leads me to the next point:

Are you simply refusing to understand it ? The only way to manipulate Vong with force energy directly is to have Vongsense. Luke didn't have that. So the only way for him to kill a Vong would be generating physical energy via force use since he can't do anything else.

That means he must either have manipulated the surrounding of the Vong (example: Turn the air into something hard and crush the Vong with it...something like that) or he did "overwrite" their immunity to force attacks with his force powers (as I said - force lightning wasn't enough to do so).

There is simply no other way for Luke to use the force against Vong other than generating physical energy / effects since he couldn't affected them via force energy (because he doesn't have Vongsense) directly. Did you understand that now ?

So musculature and nervous systems are now "specific Sith beast functions" that can only be found in Sith beasts ? Are you now trying to tell me that Kun can't use his amulet to other things than Sith temples (specific Sith temple function = being made of stone), Sith spirits (specific Sith spirit function = unknown), and Massassi (specific Massasi function = getting pwned by Kun) and because of that there is no proof and not even a base to speculate about Kun being able to use the amulet on Jedi, Metal or virtually anything else than Massassi, Sith spirits and Sith beasts because the "specific functions" aren't matching ?

Two words: The force. He obviously wasn't vaporized by an AT-AT shot.

Why should I establish things that were thrown into the discussion by [b]you and IKC ? That's your job and not mine.

a) You and IKC came up with the physical affects of force lightning. I said that Vong simply ignored them. So if you want to remain on that position you have to acknowledge that the physical affects of Luke's emerald lightning are multiple times stronger than the one of force lightning. That was your own idea and not mine. Because:

b) For my position it doesn't matter if Luke hit the Vong with a physical effect (or Side-effect) or with a force energy effect - he either produced far greater physical effects than people using force lightning (see above) or he applied an instakill via force energy against a being which is immune to said energy.

c) Where has Kun shown the ability to block physical manifestations of the force, huh ? Did somebody attack him with force lightning when I wasn't watching or did I just miss the physical component of the "block people from the force attack" ?

No. You missunderstood me there. My point is that Luke can use the technique against Kun - without knowing if he can do that sucessfully. While you are simply trying to ignore all given facts with your statement that "The technique might be designed to kill Vong". That's outright impossible - see above.

Can Vader try to use force choke on Ragnos or is that a force technique designed to kill non-force users with "specific non-force user functions" ?

Again...USE them is not automatically USE THEM SUCESSFULLY.

And if you ask for my personal opinion about "Emerald Lightning" I think it's "Electrical Judgement" (Plo Koon's light-side force lightning) with Luke's personal signature (emerald visible effects) with power (either force power or physical effects) far above force lightning (which has never instakilled anybody).

So can Luke use that on Kun ? Yes. Can he do that sucessfully ? Debateable - but unless you show me that Kun's force defence easily trumps Yoda's (who had problems with defending against a less powerful technique by a less powerful force user) I say yes. But in this case that probably won't result in an instakill but instead in a weakened / wounded Kun.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Kun uses his amulets in the very same way a conventional weapon is used in the SW universe. Now you see a difference between energy used to detonate a building and energy used to blast through a temple because in the first case we have "electical" energy and in the second case we have "force" energy. Both attacks do have a pure physical component unless you want to tell me that the temple wall Kun blasted through was constructed out of living material.
Now as it seems the raw physical power behind Kun's blast was less than that of a AT-AT shot or turbolaser fire from a Stardestroyer. Can you tell me again why somebody who blocked the latter two wouldn't be able to block the first. Ah yes:

Yeah...because plasma is ionized gas, in case of turbolasers: ionized gas shot towards a target with velocity above speed of light with enough power to vaporize asteroids. Was Kun's force beam visible ? Yes ? I hate to tell you but in this case it would be ionized gas (air) aka plasma charged by force energy and since it's plasma Luke can block it.

It was explicitly stated that the Hive's full potential (the entire potential of all beings on 375 planets including multiple trained force users) was backing Raynar's attack up.
The "Hive" is basically a single mind with Raynar as "UnuThul" (leader) and had taken parts of Raynar's personality. The "Hive" contained Killiks and so called Joiners (including Raynar himself, Jaina, Lowbacca and several other force users) from different species.
Now the entire power of that was used against Luke and he didn't just block it but in return knocked Raynar unconciousness and then sliced Lomi Plo into pieces (and Lomi had her own Nest - the Dark Nest or Gorog as backup).

And I still said that it's impossible to quantify the amount of power exactly but seeing what the part of the potential of a single planet did with Sidious force powers I fail to see why 375 times the potential (and some force users as bonues) working as backup would have a lesser effect.

I just argued that Kun wouldn't be able to block the entire effect of Luke's emerald lightning and not that it will make him drop dead in the same second it hits him. Obviously Kun can partitially block force attacks he doesn't know (seen when Odan tried to attack him) but it's still safer to assume that the dude with rediculous potential and 30 years of force training and combat experience has a greater chance to block force attacks (since we've SEEN that he can do it) than the guy with "some years" of force training that was in the hight of his power still put on his ass by an attack of Odan Urr. [/B]

1) Although i agree with most of your post, yet we dont have proof that the AT AT Blasts are the exact same thing as the amulet blasts. So by your means if the blasts were to come out like lightning or more so green lightning it would be different? No, you are effectively saying that when the energy appear to be the same in looks, they must have the same properties. That is where your wrong, just because something does the same thing as something else, or moreso, similar, it does not mean you can compare it.

2) Where is the proof that the blasts were of plasma energy? For all you know it could simply be pure force rage focused into a beam aimed at where the user sees fit.

3) You can argue that Luke's attack works, but i can still argue that Kun's blasts will be unblockable or atleast some will get through. Consider that the At AT blast fire in single shots, the Amulet blasts comes out as one straight line, it is very likely that the blast will affect Luke the same way his lightning will affect Kun.

W00t, both blasts were shown to be capable of doing the same thing. The only thing the amulet did that you can consider remotely special, was kill the spirit of Nadd. Then again you have Luke's students killing Kun's spirit with a saber so it's not exactly impressive. That in itself shows that Luke has the possibility of stopping Kun's blasts. At the same time we can't prove that Luke's lightning will work although if it works on users outside of the force, then its incredibly energy would be able to work on Kun, and at the same time you can't prove Kun can block attacks of this magnitude.

Originally posted by w00t2112
1) Although i agree with most of your post, yet we dont have proof that the AT AT Blasts are the exact same thing as the amulet blasts. So by your means if the blasts were to come out like lightning or more so green lightning it would be different? No, you are effectively saying that when the energy appear to be the same in looks, they must have the same properties. That is where your wrong, just because something does the same thing as something else, or moreso, similar, it does not mean you can compare it.

Let me put it like this: We know that force powers can generate effects (side effects or the only purpose of a force power) that interact with the surrounding in physical means. So you have a physical energy / effect generated. This is the case whenever the force is used on a "dead" thing. You can measure the energy needed to vaporize a stone wall or lift an object - no matter if force energy or some other sort of energy is used. We see Kun using the blast to destroy "dead" objects. We see normal weapons doing the same. We see that those normal weapons have a greater physical effect on "dead" things than Kun's blasts. And we've seen that Luke is able to block / absorb the energy coming from that - apparently - more powerful (in terms of physical effect) weapons. So I don't see why he should be able to do the same with Kun's blasts. Just because it's force energy ?

This is operating on the premise that force attacks are in general more difficult to block than attacks that are powered by "normal" forms of energy. Have you seen Obi-Wan Kenobi or Anakin or Yoda or Dooku blocking blaster bolts with their bare hands ? Because they all blocked force attacks with the bare hands (force push in cases of Anakin and Obi-Wan; end of ROTS - force lightning in case of Yoda and Dooku; ROTS and AotC).

So the attacks might be different but who says that force attacks are stronger ? They could also be weaker.

2) Where is the proof that the blasts were of plasma energy? For all you know it could simply be pure force rage focused into a beam aimed at where the user sees fit.

The point is that you can see the beam. If it was just force energy it would have been invisible. Take lightning as example - that's a form of plasma because the energy of the lightning itself ionizes the air (and ionized air = plasma). Same with force lightning, same with Exar's beams, same with Turbolaser fire.

And that statement was more or less a joke because I think it's rather senseless to assume that "matter" (in form of a few electrons or ions added to a gas and the gas itself) would make it much easier to block the energy of a beam compared to an attack which doesn't use plasma. To exeggerate that idea: A Force push must be harder to block than a shot from the deathstar because the latter one uses plasma.

3) You can argue that Luke's attack works, but i can still argue that Kun's blasts will be unblockable or atleast some will get through. Consider that the At AT blast fire in single shots, the Amulet blasts comes out as one straight line, it is very likely that the blast will affect Luke the same way his lightning will affect Kun.

If you want to generate scenarios: Luke can make himself invisible and unsenseable through the force (technique learned by the Fallanassi during the Black Fleet Crisis - and he can do the same with entire planets for an infinite amount of time; it's done by manipulating the force directly to generate something like an inifinite loop). So he can just walk towards Kun (unseen and unsenseable) and strike him down with his lightsaber.

At least I can keep arguing that somebody who's training time (force study, force use) exceeds Kun's entire lifetime, who has shown himself able to block heavy force attacks entirely (including total force choke immunity...) would have a better chance to block such an attack without taking physical damage than somebody who's only use of force defence was resisting a "force cut off" attack which still threw him back and put him on his ass.

that pretty much explains everything, at least in my eyes.

lmfao

1) Obi Wan and Anakin (ROTS)
2) Kit Fisto and Plo Koon

🙂

2006...

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