Originally posted by Illustrious
The Jedi were incompetent enough to the point that one one in the order had even seen a Sith until Qui-Gon brought it to their attention. No one in the order used a double-bladed lightsaber, much less a short-hilt double-bladed lightsaber.
And then somehow Yoda had knowledge about the "Rule of Two" which was installed post Ruusan. How do you know that nobody in the order used a double-bladed lightsaber ? Because it isn't shown ? Jedi (Bastilla, Zez-Kai ?) did obviously use it 4,000 years ago. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
Could Mace have heard of it? Sure, but that doesn't mean he will have any clue how to stop it. It won't be much of an advantage for him.
He at least has Obi-Wan who survived a fight against somebody being aimed with a double-bladed lightsaber. Kun's weapon is different but at least it gives his user the same advantage than a normal double-blade in terms of melee abilities.
If you would get to know that your greatest enemies have returned and the only weapon you have seen them using was a double-bladed lightsaber - would you think about how to fight against such a weapon ?
Also, Mace would know next to nothing about Kun's style, Kun didn't pass it on to anyone, and most everyone he dueled ended up dead. Kun wouldn't know Mace's style either, they'd go into the fight blind, but Kun's saber superiority wins the fight.
Well...Kun might be surprised by a Jedi using "aggressive" moves with a lightsaber since the "classical" Jedi philosphy fits form III the best. Assuming the lightsaber styles remained unchanged from Kun's to the PT time on most of the Jedi in Kun's time would have been form I (basics), II (lightsaber-vs-lightsaber) or III (defensive according to their philosophy) practicioneers.
I guess Kun will still most likely win this - but he won't "pwn" Mace in a pure lightsaber fight.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And then somehow Yoda had knowledge about the "Rule of Two" which was installed post Ruusan. How do you know that nobody in the order used a double-bladed lightsaber ? Because it isn't shown ? Jedi (Bastilla, Zez-Kai ?) did obviously use it 4,000 years ago. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
I'd like to point out that Yoda's knowledge of the dark side was exceptional. Mace could barely tolerate Sidious' lightning, while Yoda caught it with his bare hands. Yoda surely had 900 years to study the enemy, but even he did not believe that the sith had returned and was skeptical. The PT jedi were not all about practising to defeat the Sith, since the sith were commonly thought to be extinct. And certainly not a threat if one believed that they did exist, until about the time of the Clone Wars. Then the Sith became a concern. Note that in the original description of Makashi it was stated as being the chief form used during the saber to saber duels of the past. Yet in the PT era, only Dooku has mastered it. So while Yoda may have had knowledge of the Rule of Two, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that he was constantly training to fight the Sith and their ancient, unique and archaic saber fighting styles. Mace is the same way, just with less experience and force mastery. And really, Qui-Gon Jinn was Dooku's apprentice and supposively one of the best swordsmen of his era, could not so much as make headway against Darth Maul and his doublebladed lightsaber, and the latter was barely trying.
Also, that doublebladed lightsabers were NOT used by PT jedi points to something else, too; a change in philosophy and position. Jedi of the post-Ruusan era had abandoned their battle armor, were keepers of the peace, and the majority practiced Niman, the Diplomat's Style. Doublebladed lightsabers are noted in the KOTOR era for being characteristic of aggressive and reckless jedi and mostly with the sith. Hell, the SW.com databank calls it the Sith Lightsaber. While it's possible that an advanced saber user like Mace can contend well with a good doublebladed saber user, Qui-Gon's living proof that the jedi aren't properly trained against it. And keep in mind, Exar Kun not only uses one with a shorter hilt (That is different in nature and use and speed), but uses it just with one blade equally as well. Hell, with just the bare leverage he had on that little handle, he drove his lightsaber right through Vodo's "stronger than a lightsaber" staff and his entire body. This is a far cry from old Sidious who was kicked down and disarmed with hardly any effort.
Final point: nothing at all to suggest that Mace is well-prepared for this opponent at all.
He at least has Obi-Wan who survived a fight against somebody being aimed with a double-bladed lightsaber. Kun's weapon is different but at least it gives his user the same advantage than a normal double-blade in terms of melee abilities.
Obi-Wan -barely- survived, and while he did do incredible, he was relying heavily on the dark side, and Maul wasn't taking the fight seriously (after all, he just punked Qui-Gon with relative ease). Kun's far stronger and more dangerous than Maul ever was. And the blades are fundamentally different in use because of the shortened handle in Kun's model.
If you would get to know that your greatest enemies have returned and the only weapon you have seen them using was a double-bladed lightsaber - would you think about how to fight against such a weapon ?
lol... So they encounter one of the sith with a doublebladed lightsaber (And they did not even know if that was the master or the apprentice), so Mace neccessarily went ahead and learned how to fight against a doublebladed lightsaber user, and thus is able to contend with Kun's different model in the hands of someone who pwns jedi masters for a living? Nein.
Well...Kun might be surprised by a Jedi using "aggressive" moves with a lightsaber since the "classical" Jedi philosphy fits form III the best.
Not really. Jedi in Kun's day probably relied more on aggressive forms than blaster bolt reflecting ones. Hell, the majority of the sith forces, the Krath armies, even the Republic armies used melee weapons. I didn't really see any jedi in that era practicing a strictly defensive lightsaber style, or agreeing to some sort of obssessive pacifism. If anything, they were hot headed and rather vicious.
Assuming the lightsaber styles remained unchanged from Kun's to the PT time on most of the Jedi in Kun's time would have been form I (basics), II (lightsaber-vs-lightsaber) or III (defensive according to their philosophy) practicioneers.
If you want us to make assumptions, let me try: the PT jedi were less proficient at pure melee than their earlier counterparts because of the lack of emphasis on melee being neccessary for their lives as jedi.
I guess Kun will still most likely win this - but he won't "pwn" Mace in a pure lightsaber fight.
I agree.
And then somehow Yoda had knowledge about the "Rule of Two" which was installed post Ruusan. How do you know that nobody in the order used a double-bladed lightsaber ? Because it isn't shown ? Jedi (Bastilla, Zez-Kai ?) did obviously use it 4,000 years ago. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
Bad example. I know that the Vietcong used AK47s. Do I have to have seen a Vietcong? Do I have to have seen an AK47?
No, I don't.
They used dual bladed lightsabers with Niman? Certainly no one on the council used dual-bladed lightsabers, no one in Geonosis used dual-bladed lightsabers, and no one depicted in the comics or Temple scenes used dual-bladed lightsabers. There is no premise for your unreasonable assumption.
He at least has Obi-Wan who survived a fight against somebody being aimed with a double-bladed lightsaber. Kun's weapon is different but at least it gives his user the same advantage than a normal double-blade in terms of melee abilities.
If you would get to know that your greatest enemies have returned and the only weapon you have seen them using was a double-bladed lightsaber - would you think about how to fight against such a weapon ?
And Obi-Wan was smacked around the entire duel. He survived because Maul was arrogant, is Mace going to depend on Exar being arrogant? Is his arrogance going to lose him the duel more often than not (like in a versus match)?
Again, knowing about something is different than knowing it and how to counter it.
Well...Kun might be surprised by a Jedi using "aggressive" moves with a lightsaber since the "classical" Jedi philosphy fits form III the best. Assuming the lightsaber styles remained unchanged from Kun's to the PT time on most of the Jedi in Kun's time would have been form I (basics), II (lightsaber-vs-lightsaber) or III (defensive according to their philosophy) practicioneers.
I think stripping someone of the force is pretty aggressive. The Jedi in those days wore armor, attacked en masse, and were far from being labeled as diplomats as the PT era Jedi. What makes you think that all the attacks Kun encountered were passive?
I guess Kun will still most likely win this - but he won't "pwn" Mace in a pure lightsaber fight.
That works.
That was more the surprise of him using Vaapad (which Mace thought only he, Depa, and Sora could utilize) than raw strength, but I get your point. However, Mace is a physical monster on his own: you saw what he and Kar did to eachother. The force of them slamming together in the air created shockwaves, and actually suspended them there.
Originally posted by IKC
Eh? It's not that great a match. The "zomg unique form" duo.
Probably, but if so, it'd be in a depressingly long battle. You have Yoda, who could probably run rings around either Mace or Kun, and Dooku, the master of Makashi, against two lightsaber prodigies with their own dastardly styles. I'm still undecided. . .
Kun was not even the best duelist of his era. Vodo would give Mace more trouble then Kun would. Kun was only able to defeat Vodo because of the fact that his staff was not strong enough for Kun's double bladed saber. He was a better duelist then him, and the factor that enabled him to win wouldnot be an issue in a battle with Windu. Windu on the other hand was argueably the best duelist of The Golden age of saber dueling. He would pwn Kun.
Originally posted by namun66
Kun was not even the best duelist of his era. Vodo would give Mace more trouble then Kun would. Kun was only able to defeat Vodo because of the fact that his staff was not strong enough for Kun's double bladed saber. He was a better duelist then him, and the factor that enabled him to win wouldnot be an issue in a battle with Windu. Windu on the other hand was argueably the best duelist of The Golden age of saber dueling. He would pwn Kun.
The illogical reasoning of Numan, remember that the narrator states that Vodo made his staff as powerful as Kun's saber. You have made an incorrect statement, using your biased opinion and assuming that its fact. The Golden Age of Saber Dueling? Yep, where there is no real contest of sabers, where Form II Makashi is never used, and perfected by only 2 people in the PT era.
Actually there is not much proof that Kun is a much better duellist than Vodo IMO in saber combat and no real proof that his staff is more/equally powerful to his saber because....
Vodo's stick can be broken.
Vodo hit Kun with his staff, and as most it broke his arm.
We know that before Kun went to the darkside they sparred. At the end of the sparring Kun took two swords and broke Vodo's staff. At that moment he told Kun that he was the best student he had ever trained.
After a while Kun turned to the dark side and confronted Vodo, who defeated him if I remember it right. (Broke his arm or something)
Then a time after that Kun confronted him again and Kun broke his staff to win. So actually, Kun could be equally good as a saber user as before, he broke his staff then too, but he sure as hell wasen't the better duellist.
Originally posted by Wesker
I'd like to point out that Yoda's knowledge of the dark side was exceptional. Mace could barely tolerate Sidious' lightning, while Yoda caught it with his bare hands. Yoda surely had 900 years to study the enemy, but even he did not believe that the sith had returned and was skeptical.
Well...still Yoda couldn't have run across the rule of two without knowing about Sith in post-Ruusan times since that rule was installed after Ruusan. And I don't see him finding a Sith holocron somewhere on Coruscant.
The PT jedi were not all about practising to defeat the Sith, since the sith were commonly thought to be extinct. And certainly not a threat if one believed that they did exist, until about the time of the Clone Wars. Then the Sith became a concern. Note that in the original description of Makashi it was stated as being the chief form used during the saber to saber duels of the past. Yet in the PT era, only Dooku has mastered it. So while Yoda may have had knowledge of the Rule of Two, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that he was constantly training to fight the Sith and their ancient, unique and archaic saber fighting styles. Mace is the same way, just with less experience and force mastery. And really, Qui-Gon Jinn was Dooku's apprentice and supposively one of the best swordsmen of his era, could not so much as make headway against Darth Maul and his doublebladed lightsaber, and the latter was barely trying.
The point is that they did notice that the Sith must have returned and they did know that there is another Sith left after killing Maul. With that knowledge - wouldn't you focus on training to be able to defeat Dark Siders rather than keeping up your focus on diplomacy ? And they had nearly 2 decades to figure out how to defend against a Sith. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon never thought about having to fight another lightsaber user that strong. And Obi-Wan immediatly changed his style after that battle.
Also, that doublebladed lightsabers were NOT used by PT jedi points to something else, too; a change in philosophy and position. Jedi of the post-Ruusan era had abandoned their battle armor, were keepers of the peace, and the majority practiced Niman, the Diplomat's Style. Doublebladed lightsabers are noted in the KOTOR era for being characteristic of aggressive and reckless jedi and mostly with the sith. Hell, the SW.com databank calls it the Sith Lightsaber. While it's possible that an advanced saber user like Mace can contend well with a good doublebladed saber user, Qui-Gon's living proof that the jedi aren't properly trained against it. And keep in mind, Exar Kun not only uses one with a shorter hilt (That is different in nature and use and speed), but uses it just with one blade equally as well. Hell, with just the bare leverage he had on that little handle, he drove his lightsaber right through Vodo's "stronger than a lightsaber" staff and his entire body. This is a far cry from old Sidious who was kicked down and disarmed with hardly any effort.
Well...you still have tons of form IV and V practicioners and both forms are descriped to be aggressive not even talking about Mace and his Vaapad / form VII use. Therefore I fail to see while people who stick to that forms shouldn't use a double-bladed lightsaber. In fact at least Jastus Farr (appearing in Purge and the ROTS game) and Komari Vosa used double-bladed lightsabers. So even if it was extremely uncommon among Jedi in the PT era some still used it.
Not really. Jedi in Kun's day probably relied more on aggressive forms than blaster bolt reflecting ones. Hell, the majority of the sith forces, the Krath armies, even the Republic armies used melee weapons. I didn't really see any jedi in that era practicing a strictly defensive lightsaber style, or agreeing to some sort of obssessive pacifism. If anything, they were hot headed and rather vicious.
Why would they need anything apart from forms I, II and III ? Form II obviously offers the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" and if the entire purpose was to content with melee weapon users / Dark Jedi / Sith this would be the best form to do so. At least I don't see them using styles on the edge of the Dark Side like form VII or Mace's Vaapad.
If you want us to make assumptions, let me try: the PT jedi were less proficient at pure melee than their earlier counterparts because of the lack of emphasis on melee being neccessary for their lives as jedi.
How was melee skill neccessary for the TOTJ era Jedi ? They went through a 1000 year period of peace as far as we know (with Freedon Nadd being the only noticeable Dark Sider) and apart from that they did receive less training than the PT era people. Andur Sunrider didn't impress me when getting pwned by a bunch of bandits while some Jedi in the PT era were feared for their combat ablities (especially Mace Windu - in Shatterpoints two of the guards on Haruun Kal thought of them selves being lucky surviving a fight with a naked and unarmed Mace...not even talking about the fist fight with Kar "jungle badass" Vastor).