Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan(ROTS) Vs Darth Vader(RODV) and Ventress(Obsession)

Originally posted by kamikz
I agree with the points, but are you sure that Soresu is only good against blasters? I thought that was just one of the KOTOR balancing things for the different styles. Obi-Wan has actually never been bested in ROTS in saber combat, when he fought Dooku it was with the force + that Obi-Wan was actually using offensive to work as a team with Anakin instead of being defencive, I'd say it's pretty well effective with saber vs saber too....

It IS effective for being purely defensive (Like with Grievous), but that's not its main focus.

Form III
The third great lightsaber discipline was first developed in response to the advancement of blaster technology in the galaxy. As these weapons spread widely into the hands of evil-doers, Jedi had to develop unique means of defending themselves. Form III thus arose from "laserblast" deflection training. Over the centuries it has transcended this origin to become a highly refined expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy. Form III maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target area compared to the relatively open style of some of the other Forms.
Obi-Wan Kenobi takes up a dedication to Form III after the death of Qui-Gon Jinn (who favored Form IV), since it was apparent to Kenobi that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul. True Form III masters are considered invincible. Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner.

Author Dr. David West Reynolds and fencer Jack "Stelen" Bobo derived the "in universe" principles of lightsaber combat based on the action that appears in all five Star Wars films to date. An importance notice to the reader: these Jedi histories are not stunt choreographies nor intructions from Episodes I and II Stunt Coordinator Nick Gillard, who developed the exciting sequences we see on screen. Do not attempt fencing without proper safety precautions and training.

See this article and other exciting information in Issue 62 of Star Wars Insider.

Here's the original excerpt on Form III from the creators. The only problem with the description is it claims Obi-Wan, being a master of Form III (Which is verified all over the board) would ideally be invincible. But that's not the case as we see in ROTS; true, he does put up the best defense possible against Grievous and later on with Anakin he holds up where most would fall... but I believe the claim of "A true master would be invincible" is an unsubstantiated claim. Obi-Wan is invincible in the face of superior firepower (Just watch AOTC where he combats the deadly Jango Fett and Slave I, or in ROTS where he effortlessly deflects blasts from all manners of droids, but in lightsaber combat his form is ineffective at gaining the advantage. He can only hold on until an opportunity arises itself, leaving the effectiveness of this form mostly up to the form and style of the opponent. For example, Dooku can tear right through this because his form IS made for saber to saber, while Obi-Wan's is primarily for blasterfire. Likewise, Mace Windu would tear right through it. Yoda would tear through it too. But this isn't a flaw in the master- it's a limitation of the form itself. Likewise, the only time Obi-Wan beat Anakin was when he was fully on the defensive and Anakin was foolish.

Originally posted by thetruepower
No he is wrong. There are different levels to mastering something. You can never stop improving.

No, I'm right. Obi-Wan IS verified to be a Soresu master, as was Luminara, but the limitation of the form makes the idea of being "invincible" an illusion. No form IS invincible when mastered.

I am not going into you're debate, I'm just asking if Soresu was effective against saber to cause I thought it was...

I answered your question though. The form basically relies on keeping a tight defense and waiting for an opening when it comes to saber combat. The primary focus of it is blaster bolt deflection. If it were REALLY effective in saber combat, Obi-Wan would have really put the heat on Dooku, Anakin, and Grievous. But he didn't; he held back and waited for an opening. For Dooku, that opening never came. Likewise, with Anakin it took a lot of dancing and he got punked more than a few times. Grievous was surprisingly easy to tear apart.

That was to Numas point, it was made before you replied, sorry

Wtf, Numan. He had mastered is, which is the same thing as perfecting it. That's why he moves on to practice other forms like Ataru; if he was perfect at Soresu, why not learn more?

My point was if mastering a form was compeltely perfecting it, then Luminara Unduli and Obi-Wan Kenobi would basically be equal. But they're not.

That just means one was better than the other. Two Makashi masters could battle it out, but one could pwn the other. It's all about their skill, not their mastery over a form.

No, cause Obi-Wan's just plain better. Qui-Gon mastered Ataru and so did Yoda but are they equal? Hell no. Could Qui-Gon ever be Yoda's equal? No, but he was still mastered Ataru to the highest extent that he personally can.

My point was that there are degrees of mastery over a form.

Exactly, DS.

If you master something, you know every part of it, every weakness and advantage of it, you know the form. Anakin was perhaps a Shien master. There could be other Shien masters that could wtfpwn him, couldn't there?

Exactly, that is what I am saying. Being a master of a saber form is a title that represents such mastery over the saber form. That doesnt' mean you cannot improve upon it.

Well, you're right in a way. You could add onto the form like Windu did and perhaps create a subform, but you can't continue learning about a form after you've mastered it.

Whathe was saying is Obi-Wan hadn't mastered Soresu to a certain degree. I'd like to know where he's getting this since Obi-Wan is the best Soresu practitioner in the entire series that we even know of.

Where's your proof, Numan?

Originally posted by thetruepower
He had mastered Soresu extremely well but not to its highest degree

This is what I said idiot.

Yes, it is. You are claiming that Obi-Wan had "mastered" Soresu, but not to a certain degree. Apparently now there are degrees of Soresu mastery according to Numan-canon, but you can't prove up anything; it's just your opinion.

The fact that Luminara and Kenobi both mastered it, and Windu said that Kenobi was the better soresu master is proof that there are levels of mastery. Master of a form is just a title that refers to people who are very very very proficient in their saber form.

Numan you can master something but it's essentially your skill that does the trick. Yoda was known to have mastered all saber forms except Vaapad, and so was Sidious, but Yoda is a better saber duelist than Sidious, why? Because he has more skill.

His skill is an aspect of his form.

Actually, I'd love to see proof that Yoda and Sidious mastered any forms outside of Ataru (Or Juyo, in Sidious' case).

But that's not the point- Numan's confusing form limitations and personal skill with degrees of mastery, which is why he's a preteen and should be banned.