yeah when joker got his powers he put spectre in a place where if he tried to escape the universe would be hurt, thats the only reason im guessing spectre couldnt leave, beyond that he's womped beings from the fifth dimension as if they where jokes, and he did mess up the multiverse or universe so much that the imps lost there powers or where.
Originally posted by illadelph12
GS, answer me this.No essays.
No double talk.
No unnecessary verbose.
A simple [b]yes
or no answer.Has Jean, per canon, died, in Marvel continuity?
Has Jean, per canon, been manipulated psionically in Marvel continuity?
We both know the answer is yes, therefore my argument is not only sound, but makes all your numerous essays and, for lack of a better term, sermons, on the Phoenix/Jean connection, pointless.
You allowed whirly to talk you into a tactical bind.
All of your "on panel, canon evidence" and quotes from bios doesn't change the fact that Phoenix has been killed, and has been manipulated.[/B]
This is no argument Illadelph, this is you stating your opinion time and time again regardless. You like to cite over and over again the importance of canon events to your argument and yet not only have you made it abundantly clear that your grasp of what exactly is canon is somewhat lacking, but your failure to also take into consideration the variety of canon instances which totally contradict your argument makes for a far from credible perspective. 🙁
Since it was revealed that Jean is the Phoenix Force made flesh as opposed to being a host for the power that means that Jean Grey has never died in the conventional sense because as Phoenix she can never truly die. According to canon Jean Grey is NOT dead she is currently in the White Hot Room where she will stay until her next manifestation. Rachel was annoyed in Uncanny last week that her mother had chosen not to manifest at that point in time when her polar opposite the Fallen was making plans to do so.
Iceman having his body shattered into a million pieces does not count as a win as per forum rules because it is within his power to reform and carrying on fighting. The heroes shattering Onslaughts physical form did not equate to a death because it merely unleashed his consciousness.
By current continuity not once has Phoenix died because according to canon she cannot die. She can have her physical form destroyed but she will remain in energy form and can manifest again, she can keep her body alive or she can simply make herself invulnerable to physical harm.
Your argument is faulty because it revolves around Masterminds manipulation and Xornetos destruction of Phoenixes physical body. Given that its stated on panel and in the bios that Jean had depowered herself and therefore made herself vulnerable the Mastermind reference is irrelevant given that Jean isnt going to choose to similarly depower in a battle situation. Given that Jean has brushed off far worse than Xornetos attacks before because she had chosen to bolster her durability and given that she has kept herself alive before and since that instance after having chosen not to enhance her durability and yet she still decided to keep herself alive means that your Xorneto reference is irrelevant as by canon events and depictions it is well within Phoenixes ability to protect herself from harm.
Originally posted by illadelph12
The Phoenix Force even had a portion of it's power stolen by a sorceror long before Jean was even conceived.
Phoenix bonded a part of itself to Feron a part which Necrom tore out and decided to use for himself. Whats that gotta do with anything? 😕
You seem to have forgotten the scans i showed you a few weeks back Ill. The Jean form was taken on by Phoenix in the previous multiverse so thats not exactly true. 😉
Originally posted by illadelph12
I grant you that the Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of the Marvel Multiverse. I've argued that point along side you in other threads.What you fail to acknowledge is that Jean, the Phoenix M-Body, can, and has, been killed.
You can't deny that [b]fact
. [/B]
What you fail to acknowledge is that there are a variety of canon instances where Jean has enhanced herself and withstood more damage than that which destroyed her body. Why? Because it was her wish to do so. Therefore in a battle scenario on these forums she will choose to do so as she done on panel to withstand far greater forces than the Xorneto incident. Finally, please acknowledge that Jean has never been killed in the conventional sense as she is Phoenix and according to all sources Phoenix cant truly die.
Originally posted by illadelph12
The reason it seems redundant is because I'm trying to beat into your brain, my [b]friend, that there is a glaring hole in your argument of unabashed Jean/Phoenix superiority.Unlike many other posters on this board, your grandiose essays and "Shock and Awe" scan attacks won't pummel me into submission. [/B]
The reason it seems redundant is because your argument has more holes in it than a tramps sneakers. 😱
All your canon instances with reference to Jean/Phoenix are outweighed by other canon instances which explain them away, some even with direct reference. Please acknowledge that so as to at least make your argument credible. 😉
Originally posted by illadelph12
By your own reasoning of on panel, canon occurances being paramount, Jean Grey, the M-Body of the Phoenix Force, can die. 👇Stop being a hypocrite, GS.
You're better than that.
You even stooped so low as to pull the "PIS" card.
Per canon, [b]Jean can die
.[And luckily I think so highly of myself that your 'unintended' patronizing tone doesn't work. I'm still my brotha's keeper.] 😄 [/B]
Stating she "died" therefore shes vulnerable over and over again without taking into consideration the aforementioned canon incidents is just straight up poor debating. For one who apparently thinks so highly of themselves youre verging steadfast into Leonheart territory there bro. ❌
Id like to think youre better than this, really i would. 🙁
Originally posted by illadelph12
Oh, and just so there's clarity (in case someone's actually following this):My argument is that since [b]per canon continuity
Jean has been shown to be both fallable and capable of being killed, a character that can manipulate causality, probability, and possibility (i.e. Mad Jim Jaspers, Scarlet Witch, Jamie Braddock, etc.) could defeat her because it's already an established canon fact that Jean can be killed and manipulated, thereby giving evidence of her being susceptible to possibility, probability, and causality.It's a possibility, and they manipulate and control probability, therefore making Jean's already occuring death a a possible recurring outcome.
Once something has been proven to be possible, it can re-occur given the proper variables and resources.
Perfectly logical argument. [/B]
Your argument would be sound if there wasnt also canon instances which show that if Jean chooses to place herself above harm (as she would choose to do so in a battle situation on this forum) then she will not be harmed. If she chooses not to let her physical shell die then it will not die.
All the while youre here jumping to conclusions making assumptions about what these reality warpers can do based on their power set without actually considering to what scale each of them has been shown to be able to manipulate reality. Youre getting caught up in fantasy my friend, your argument is very much up in the clouds for the sake of common sense and reason please ground it. 😉
The only one of the three who has conclusively been shown to be able to consciously warp reality on a scale that might give Phoenix pause for thought is Jim Jaspers.
Do you know who took him out my friend? 😕 The Fury. 😉
Do you know how? 😕
He took him to the void between dimensions therefore leaving Jaspers the reality warper with nothing to work with. He then proceeded to fry the muthas brains out. 😱
Phoenix versus any of these mutants would triumph. It is her power that brings about reality, that gives them something to manipulate. She can possess any power she chooses and wield any energy in any amount. She can outdo them at any turn and they would not be able to get rid of her. She is the life force of reality she is infused in all. Destruction of her physical shell (if she allowed it 😉 ) would be irrelevant as she is in everything she would just keep on coming. Alternatively she could do a Fury. 😄
Heh, Phoenix is fairly unknown to me due to the huge difficulties of acquiring certain comics here in Finland, and I appreciate people who write posts which teach me stuff about the topics that are unavailable for me. It's always nice to read your Phoenix posts, I've enjoyed all the debates where you have brought in T3H Phoenix knowledge.
GS, GS, GS...
For all your essays, you are still missing my point.
I'll put in plain English so that you can grasp it my friend:
A probability manipulator can defeat Jean because per canon, she's been shown to be fallable, to be "killed" (resurrection not withstanding), and to make mistakes.
Period.
That's the crux of my argument, which you keep dodging.
Jean is vulnerable to possibility, and a character that can control possibility has a chance against her, because it's been shown that the possibility of her defeat, self imposed or otherwise, is a canon possibility.
To quote Jessica Care Moore:
"Just because no one understands the words that you speak/
Doesn't necessarily mean that what your saying is deep."
I'm not shying away from your essay assault. Nothing you've said changes the fact Jean's vulnerable to possibility. Her very ability of choice shows her being within the bounds of the concepts of probability and causality.
Originally posted by illadelph12
GS, GS, GS...For all your essays, you are still missing my point.
I'll put in plain English so that you can grasp it my friend:
A probability manipulator can defeat Jean because per [b]canon
, she's been shown to be fallable, to be "killed" (resurrection not withstanding), and to make mistakes.Period.
That's the crux of my argument, which you keep dodging.[/B]
I understand perfectly what youre saying Ill and yet youre still missing the point. A reality warper would have to be more powerful than the Phoenix, powerful enough to override her abilities, her will with a manifested probability. Its just not happening Ill. Her power her very essence is what gives them something to manipulate in the first place. Im quite sure she would have more control over the substance of reality than any of them.
If Phoenix doesnt want to be harmed she will not be, she has not been in such circumstances. Even the destruction of the multiverse cannot and did not destroy Phoenix. She cannot be destroyed by all accounts therefore not giving a possibility to work with.
Wanda and Jamie have never done anything of a sufficient scale on panel for there to be reasonable speculation (based on their proven capabilities) pertaining to their more favorable chances in a battle situation. They can manipulate reality they can not or at least haven’t been shown capable of materializing any probability possible.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean is vulnerable to [b]possibility, and a character that can control possibility has a chance against her, because it's been shown that the possibility of her defeat, self imposed or otherwise, is a canon possibility.[/B]
That would be true if it wasnt shown that Phoenix by all accounts is ultimately, completely indestructible. Her destruction is NOT possible, Jeans power makes reality, Phoenix is the sum and substance of all reality it is NOT possible to get rid of her and you would be totally unsupported in arguing any differently. The destruction of an M body would NOT equate to a win. To gain even a possible win for the reality warpers you'd have to najorly tailor a threads circumstances. 😉
Originally posted by illadelph12
To quote Jessica Care Moore:"Just because no one understands the words that you speak/
Doesn't necessarily mean that what your saying is deep."I'm not shying away from your essay assault. Nothing you've said changes the fact Jean's vulnerable to possibility. Her very ability of [b]choice
shows her being within the bounds of the concepts of probability and causality. [/B]
And yet you’re conveniently forgetting to acknowledge the reality warpers vulnerabilities. They too are vulnerable to possibility, their powers are dependent on a reality which is dependent on Phoenix. Take them away from reality and as the Fury so perfectly demonstrated they are completely powerless. Jean is Phoenixes human form a form which she can forsake at any time in favor of her energy form a form that is ultimately indestructible. They cannot win. Nothing they can bring about cant be undone by Phoenix. Battlefield removal only works if its not within a characters abilities to re-enter the fray at any time under their own power.
Originally posted by illadelph12
You are aware that 616 Jaspers is alive and merged with the Fury, right?
Of course i am. Yet what does that have to with anything? 😕
Doesnt change the fact that he like all reality warpers have an easily expoitable weakness or the fact that nothing they can do can destroy the Phoenix, nothing they do cant be undone.
Originally posted by Mider
spectre turns 20 million miles tall and then shows up to fight LT saying LIVING JOBBE WHAT I JUST STEPED ON SOMETHING EWWWW IT LOOKS LIKE A BUG WITH THREE FACES.
it sounds outragous but this probably could happen if spectre chose or he could just turn into a million spectres and overwelm the LT like he aint never been overwelmed in his life.
None of the probabilities Jaspers brought to bear could easily take out the Fury. Eventually Jaspers got manhandled and eventually dealt with:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414022535.gif&s=f5
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414035727.gif&s=f5
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414052132.gif&s=f5
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414064019.gif&s=f5
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414084181.gif&s=f5
As ive said before and i'll say again, a character being a reality warper doesnt mean you can assume they can materialise absolutely any possibility. Wanda for example taps into outside forces and uses these to shape reality and she herself has stated on panel her limits (warping the planet). Jaspers similarly never displayed any overly impressive personal feats. His reality warp spun out of control and threatened to consume all reality. A potential possibility that while impressive in terms of destruction certainly wasnt (and wouldnt be) something fuelled and maintained directly by himself. You might blab on about such an effect being a possibility and as per his mutant power something he could materialise but it doesnt work like that. It wouldnt be something he could just materialise out of thin air, thats assumption, not anything based on on panel events. Instead it would be something he eventually could bring about again through the materialisation of other possibilities down the scale. The same with Wanda and the chaos wave.
They are both human and they have both shown limits. They are limited most importantly by their imaginations and knowledge. That is a limitation that would forever prevent them from gaining victory over many a high level cosmic being let alone the Phoenix.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LOL people are still debating this ?GS still defending the Pheonix from losing ?
WHATS HAPPENING TO THIS WORLD !!?!?!?!?
Im a bit behind cos ive just got a new job so i cant come on as often as i used to, so you'd do well to make the most of my time. Learn from boy i have many a word of wisdom to preach. 😉
Ne ways I think Pheonix would beat any reality warper that comes from any of the MArvel Universes simply because thier POWER to warp reality will only be PART of the universal energy force that essentially belongs to Pheonix.
If Pheonix is the CREATION FORCE than all energy and power owes it roots to her, therefore she has jurisdiction over anyone who uses HER universe's energy to warp reality.
It would have to be a MAJOR reality warper like CLASSIC BEYONDER to beat her, because he can simply RE WRITE her story and do whatever he wants to her.
