Fully-Powered Spectre vs. The Living Tribunal

{{{Ahhh, but theres a difference.When i post them, theyre coherent and fact filled and therefore debatably necessary and certainly relevant, not a rant featuring nothing but my personal opinion. }}}}

If you would have read my "rants" you would see i put both factual reason to why I think what, and then I only ended it with my opinion.

However, i respect your right to not read it. You don't have 2, but then I won't debate with you at all.

I atleast have the decency to READ the sh*t you write, and then consider it, AND admit when im wrong.

You bro just seem to make a joke when you can't answer something.

Hey its all good though, i dont need to prove anything to you.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{I couldnt even be bothered to read that rant.}}}}

Since you won't bother reading anything I argue, you have no place to make a response to what I said.

I skimmed through it, we were debating about whether TOAA was God, there was no proof within pertaining to that debate, it was just a rant about why you think thats the case, therefore it was both unnecessary and irrelevant.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{{{ It was unnecessary as you have no proof that shows TOAA is Marvels supreme being. It was all just your opinion. }}}

I never SAID did...but yes its my opinion, and the opinon of many Marvel readers. Tell them they're wrong bro.

Id do so gladly because they are. The fact that many people believe a notion doesnt give it any more credit in a debate if its not verified as canon by any official source. Its not stated, therefore its not canon its simple as that. Its suggested, therefore you can speculate but you cannot treat the notion as fact in threads.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Everone has been comparing TOAA to The Presence/Yahweh on these forums. Is there a reason why I cannot do so, while everyone else can ?

Youre sounding like a ten year old now. So the question that seems most appropriate is If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?

It hasnt been stated, its conclusively NOT canon, however its something thast suggested and certainly possible. Leave it at that cos you certainly cant make it out to be fact.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{Ahhh, but theres a difference.When i post them, theyre coherent and fact filled and therefore debatably necessary and certainly relevant, not a rant featuring nothing but my personal opinion. }}}}

If you would have read my "rants" you would see i put both factual reason to why I think what, and then I only ended it with my opinion.

However, i respect your right to not read it. You don't have 2, but then I won't debate with you at all.

I atleast have the decency to READ the sh*t you write, and then consider it, AND admit when im wrong.

You bro just seem to make a joke when you can't answer something.

Hey its all good though, i dont need to prove anything to you.

I skimmed them, there was nothing but your opinion which is irrelevant when we're trying to ascertain whats canon as dictated by official sources.

You dont have to prove anything to me, youre quite right about that, but if you want to enter a debate and post nothing but your opinion and half truths, you'll get nowhere fast. 🙁

{{{{I skimmed through it, we were debating about whether TOAA was God, there was no proof within pertaining to that debate, it was just a rant about why you think thats the case, therefore it was both unnecessary and irrelevant. }}}}}

Okay point taken. Let's end that argument.

{{{Id do so gladly because they are. The fact that many people believe a notion doesnt give it any more credit in a debate if its not verified as canon by any official source. Its not stated, therefore its not canon its simple as that. Its suggested, therefore you can speculate but you cannot treat the notion as fact in threads. }}}}

Dude many things in comic books, besides Marvel and DC are either left for intepretation or simply suggested. Not everything is black and white and set in stone like DC tries to make it.

However, I've made that "open your mind" argument numerous times, and obviously it means nothing to you.

So tell ya what......

When I debate with YOU...i will do my best to ONLY speak from what I am ABSOLUTELY 1000%%%%% certain of with the comic book right in front me of to refer to.

Even If i am 99% sure, I won't voice it to YOU.

However, to everyone else, I'll take my chances.

{{{{Youre sounding like a ten year old now. So the question that seems most appropriate is If everyone jumped off a bridge would you? }}}}}

Again this is disrespectful and unnecessary. I'm not insulting you, nor do I think I ever did. And I won't stoop down to insulting you, I will simply respond my own way.

TOAA is accepted as Marvel's Supreme Being by many many fans. You even stated that just because it's not set in stone doesn't make it untrue. The only thing that contradict's TOAA's supremecy in Marvel is or WAS the existance of Classic Beyonder.

{{It hasnt been stated, its conclusively NOT canon, however its something thast suggested and certainly possible. Leave it at that cos you certainly cant make it out to be fact.}}}

DEAL.....that argument will go no where

{{{{I skimmed them, there was nothing but your opinion which is irrelevant when we're trying to ascertain whats canon as dictated by official sources. }}}}}

Dude, there was more than opinion there if you actually READ it.

Anways I wasn't trying to actually PROVE anything there. I was justifying WHY my opinion was SUCH, since you were unwilling to consider it. IF I can't defend it, then there's no point in me debating with you.

{{{{{You dont have to prove anything to me, youre quite right about that, but if you want to enter a debate and post nothing but your opinion and half truths, you'll get nowhere fast.}}}}}}}

Understood, but similiar deal goes for you. If sarcasm and insults are your way of proving to someone that they are wrong, you're point will be disregarded, and EVEN if you ARE RIGHT....your arguments wouldn't be accepted by some people.

Try to keep that in mind

😉

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Dude many things in comic books, besides Marvel and DC are either left for intepretation or simply suggested. Not everything is black and white and set in stone like DC tries to make it.

However, I've made that "open your mind" argument numerous times, and obviously it means nothing to you.

So tell ya what......

When I debate with YOU...i will do my best to ONLY speak from what I am ABSOLUTELY 1000%%%%% certain of with the comic book right in front me of to refer to.

Even If i am 99% sure, I won't voice it to YOU.

However, to everyone else, I'll take my chances.

Unless something is stated or shown on panel without being open to interpretation then it isnt canon fact, especially if said point isnt also supported in another official source such as another Marvel title or a bio. The only thing we should be speculating on here are the features of a confrontation and the end result, not anything about the characters roles and power level things which need to be defined on panel.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Again this is disrespectful and unnecessary. I'm not insulting you, nor do I think I ever did. And I won't stoop down to insulting you, I will simply respond my own way.

You set the tone for the proceedings with some remarks in the other thread. Im never the first to initiate. 😉

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The only thing that contradict's TOAA's supremecy in Marvel is or WAS the existance of Classic Beyonder.

Thats not entirely true given:

a) the fact that when Thanos claimed he had the supreme beings power in "The End" no connection between HOTU and TOAA was made on panel. LT also confronted Thanos.

b)All we know about TOAA is that it is a power beyond the IG. Many powers have been depicted as being so in Marvel over the years

c) The Phoenix power has been said on numerous occassions to enable a wielder to become the supreme being over creation.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Understood, but similiar deal goes for you. If sarcasm and insults are your way of proving to someone that they are wrong, you're point will be disregarded, and EVEN if you ARE RIGHT....your arguments wouldn't be accepted by some people.

Try to keep that in mind

😉

Oh no. 😕 I prove someone wrong with on panel references, occassionally a few scans, mixed together into a coherent argument and always with a sprinkling of finesse. 😱

Sarcasm and insults come in reaction to the like. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh no. 😕 I prove someone wrong with on panel references, occassionally a few scans, mixed together into a coherent argument and always with a sprinkling of finesse. 😱

Sarcasm and insults come in reaction to the like. 😉

Originally posted by newjak86
I wouldn't say this last one is completely true GS 😖hifty:

Neither would I. I don't recall being mean or sarcastic with you until you bombarded me with sarcasm initially.

I hate sarcasm and I would never use it unless it was used against me first.

Reading your posts, it seems more like you were trying to make someone look stupid, rather than seriously debate.

Anways my argument which you call "just my opinion" and "rant" is just as valid as your Infinity VS Infinity argument.

You used an outside source of information that has nothing to actually do with DC or Marvel, and used it to prove your point about HOTU truly being greater in power than the IG.

Did i disregard that ? No....I took it as your way of backing up your point, you HAD to bring that in to make your point. Not only did i READ IT, i CONSIDERED IT, and even referred to that same point in some of my other arguments.

I think that as long as I can back up my opinion, or atleast JUSTIFY my opinion it shouldn't be disregarded as "ranting" and invalid. I wasn't even trying to actually prove something, I was explaining where I stand on that debate, and I think you were totally disrespectful in every post addressed to me.

The only testimony to the fact that the HOTU is greater than the IG was that thanos stated it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont try it LU. Lt did hold Phoenix in his hand but nothing was stated about their comparative power level so dont make assumptions based on her landing on his hand to tell him he is no longer needed because shes done his job for him. 😉

Lt says its his wish for Phoenix to not take a host and Phoenix chooses not to with the captions saying that Phoenix CHOSE TO LISTEN TO HIM AT THAT TIME, because she knew no host could safely hold her power for long and she could threaten the multiverse.

With that in mind dont make assumptions, especially totally unsupported ones. The only time the Phoenix and LT's powers have been weighed up directly against each other was in X-men Forever and Eternity stated that the Phoenix power can render someone supreme in creation and he created a depiction of LT bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger. Remember that!! 😱

I love how you seem to use this comment by Eternity so much, GS, and yet it too is simply hearsay. Just because Eternity says it doesn't make it true, much like the LT attributing supreme power to TOAA is also hearsay, no? Moreover, the LT IS above Eternity, which would suggest that it might know a little more of what it is talking about.

Also, just because the LT bowed before the Phoenix enhanced stranger doesn't mean the Phoenix is inherently stronger than the Stranger. The Stranger is also a cosmic being, and I've read sources which say he either once was a part of the LT, or that he was offered the possibility of becoming the fourth face of the LT--so even if we're taking what Eternity CLAIMED as canon (and ignoring all canon facts which support alternative claims), it still could be that the LT and Phoenix are equal, and that it was the inclusion of the Stranger that shifted the balance, no?

In addition, if we're going to nitpick, "Supreme in creation" doesn't necessarily mean the supreme being in the multiverse, at least in this case. Remember that the Phoenix is the force of creation--so supreme in creation could mean supreme in the ability to create, which the Phoenix apparently is. That's not the LT's purpose. His purpose is to maintain, not to create.

One final note--you say that the picture of the Phoenix in the hand of the LT doesn't canonically show that the LT is more powerful, but it certainly suggests it. The differential in size alone is the artist's attempt to show this. Moreover, sure it doesn't say in writing that one is more powerful than the other, but in comics, isn't the drawing almost as important? And sure the Phoenix CHOSE to listen to him--he wasn't forcing it into anything, but he was letting her (i use him for LT and her for Phoenix because it's easier, even tho it might be the wrong pronouns, sorry!) know his wishes. The fact is, the Phoenix was worried that she might endanger the multiverse, and what happens to multiverse-endangering threats? They face the Tribunal. 😱

I think I'm done debating with GS for the most part, cuz he's not even debating with me, he's just trying to "set me straight" lol and its annoying, its like a teacher trying to make a kid "submit" and its rediculous.

However all is fine, let me just clarify TWO things to GS incase he doesn't get this from me:

1) In terms of my reference to Thanos w IG, I abandoned my assumption of its power being multiversal LONG AGO, i accepted your statement that its universal, and stuck with that for my arguments, yet you CONTINUOUSLY brought up the point that i mistakened the IG for a multiversal threat, even after i stopped claiming it.

2) I checked the forum rules, and I broke no rules with my argument. What you were telling me, basically, was to disregard what I know from the INFINITY GAUNTLET saga and THANOS QUEST graphic novel. I simply refused to, because those are the sources of Infinity Gems that I know best, am only familiar with, and feel violates no thread by being brought up.

I have nothing more to say on that topic with you.

😛 lets just be freinds

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Please keep up to speed on current continuity Ill. It will stop you wasting your time with posts like this. 😉

As per current continuity as stated in the bio Jeans physical body was destroyed and a few weeks later (Remember Jean got rid of Here Comes Tomorrow) Jean came back to life again because the Shiar awakened her prematurely and she is now currently in the White Hot Room incubating until her next manifestation. 😄

If you read the latest issue of Uncanny you will see that Rachel is annoyed that her mother hasnt manifested back on Earth again especially when her polar opposite (The First Fallen) has decided to manifest on Earth. 😱

:yawn:

So basically, Jean's just an overhyped M-Body. 👇

She's still been put down per canon.

On the forums in combat the ability to resurrect yourself doesn't account for anything. Death is death, and accounts for a loss. 👇

Wow, I didn't think that when I started this thread that it would turn into all of this. 😬

But it did lol

umm spectre wins 😄

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Neither would I. I don't recall being mean or sarcastic with you until you bombarded me with sarcasm initially.

I hate sarcasm and I would never use it unless it was used against me first.

Reading your posts, it seems more like you were trying to make someone look stupid, rather than seriously debate.

Anways my argument which you call "just my opinion" and "rant" is just as valid as your Infinity VS Infinity argument.

You used an outside source of information that has nothing to actually do with DC or Marvel, and used it to prove your point about HOTU truly being greater in power than the IG.

Did i disregard that ? No....I took it as your way of backing up your point, you HAD to bring that in to make your point. Not only did i READ IT, i CONSIDERED IT, and even referred to that same point in some of my other arguments.

I think that as long as I can back up my opinion, or atleast JUSTIFY my opinion it shouldn't be disregarded as "ranting" and invalid. I wasn't even trying to actually prove something, I was explaining where I stand on that debate, and I think you were totally disrespectful in every post addressed to me.

I have not a clue what outside source of information youre referring to. My Infinity point was actually stated on panel so thats hardly the case my friend. Your opinion in and of itself isnt invalid however if it isnt backed up with canon evidence it is very much irrelevant in a debate.

I responded to your attempt to get smart with me sonny, i even quoted you in the other thread and look how its ended up. Youre now booing about my disrespectful manner. If you didnt mean to come across as you did then thats cool. No worries mate. 😉

Originally posted by harlequin115
I love how you seem to use this comment by Eternity so much, GS, and yet it too is simply hearsay. Just because Eternity says it doesn't make it true, much like the LT attributing supreme power to TOAA is also hearsay, no? Moreover, the LT IS above Eternity, which would suggest that it might know a little more of what it is talking about.

As stated on panel, Eternity spoke to Jean as a representative of the council of fundamental forces, the council that was both stated and depicted to include LT. Eternitys comments and visualisations therefore were the fears and concerns of the council which he represented and had just convened with prior to speaking to Jean.

Originally posted by harlequin115
Also, just because the LT bowed before the Phoenix enhanced stranger doesn't mean the Phoenix is inherently stronger than the Stranger.

I take it you meant stronger than LT here.

Originally posted by harlequin115
The Stranger is also a cosmic being, and I've read sources which say he either once was a part of the LT, or that he was offered the possibility of becoming the fourth face of the LT--so even if we're taking what Eternity CLAIMED as canon (and ignoring all canon facts which support alternative claims), it still could be that the LT and Phoenix are equal, and that it was the inclusion of the Stranger that shifted the balance, no?

Stranger being the fourth face of LT is something that was alluded to and is certainly not canon, so strike that one. Death also commented on the Phoenix power being the only true legitimate threat to the fabric of reality theres been (up to that point) even depicting the Infinity Gauntlet to Jean, a power LT agreed (in Infinity Watch#1) he didnt know how his own power measured up against. On top of that Eternity said that the replacement of the abstracts and LT happens as a part of the natural creation life cycle and was something the fundamental forces accepted. The Stranger isnt a component necessary for this process, he is a force in the natural scheme of things that is a "victim" of it. Hence his desire to tap into the power to protect himself from the process, whilst the others were consumed by it. With that in mind, no not really mate. The Phoenix does it regardless according to the fundamental forces.

Originally posted by harlequin115
In addition, if we're going to nitpick, "Supreme in creation" doesn't necessarily mean the supreme being in the multiverse, at least in this case. Remember that the Phoenix is the force of creation--so supreme in creation could mean supreme in the ability to create, which the Phoenix apparently is. That's not the LT's purpose. His purpose is to maintain, not to create.

That was my wording and even so thats a ridiculous assessment. Being the supreme power in creation meaning being supreme at creating? 😕 Come on now. 😂

It doesnt really matter who is actually more powerful. The crux of the matter is that the Phoenix power is the only constant in creation, it replaces the abstracts cycle after cycle and its power can be used to humble LT. Whether you think thats insufficent or not to claim Phoenix is more powerful or not is irrelevant as its all that matters when it comes to versus matches. 😄

Originally posted by harlequin115
One final note--you say that the picture of the Phoenix in the hand of the LT doesn't canonically show that the LT is more powerful, but it certainly suggests it. The differential in size alone is the artist's attempt to show this. Moreover, sure it doesn't say in writing that one is more powerful than the other, but in comics, isn't the drawing almost as important? And sure the Phoenix CHOSE to listen to him--he wasn't forcing it into anything, but he was letting her (i use him for LT and her for Phoenix because it's easier, even tho it might be the wrong pronouns, sorry!) know his wishes. The fact is, the Phoenix was worried that she might endanger the multiverse, and what happens to multiverse-endangering threats? They face the Tribunal. 😱

Youre quite correct, the size differential doesnt canonically show LT is more powerful and all that counts. Phoenix flew into his hand and told him her actions meant his involvement in the situation was no longer required. He told her his wishes and she CHOSE to listen to him for the time being as stated because he knew he was right, thats all, nothing else. She knows her power in the hands of a mortal could threaten the multiverse. Nothing conclusive can be read out of that scenes artistic depiction alone about their comparative power, especially when its made clear that Phoenix doesnt see LTs judgement as beyond reproach,(as per the abstracts) but something to abide by if she agrees with it.

Thats all. 😱

Originally posted by illadelph12
:yawn:

So basically, Jean's just an overhyped M-Body. 👇

She's still been put down [b]per canon. [/B]

By canon she can make herself beyond physical harm and as stated is ultimately totally indestructible. By canon she had work to do and when Xorn destroyed her physical body she didnt keep herself alive as is within her ability to do so she allowed herself to die and then re-manifested a few weeks later because the Shiar awakened her early. 😄

Originally posted by illadelph12
On the forums in combat the ability to resurrect yourself doesn't account for anything. Death is death, and accounts for a loss. 👇

If Jean doesnt want to die then she will not die. As shown on panel she can alter her durability, as stated on panel and in bios she is ultimately completely indestructible in essence. Destroying her physical body would just release the Phoenix consciousness, its the equivalent of stripping away her outer shell. Jean is Phoenix she cant die. Your point is redundant.

I still love ya Ill. 😱

I have not a clue what outside source of information youre referring to. My Infinity point was actually stated on panel so thats hardly the case my friend. Your opinion in and of itself isnt invalid however if it isnt backed up with canon evidence it is very much irrelevant in a debate.

I responded to your attempt to get smart with me sonny, i even quoted you in the other thread and look how its ended up. Youre now booing about my disrespectful manner. If you didnt mean to come across as you did then thats cool. No worries mate.

In the future, I will make sure I address you and everyone with respect, making sure that I do not SOUND sarcastic or smartass. I never mean to do so, I think its a misintepretation of words.

No problems then 😄