How adorable, my arguments are opinions while your opinions are arguments. How long have you been lying to yourself? You still fail to understand the concept of hypocrisy. But lets try again, your debating skills get worse and worse when it comes to TOTJ...
Dooku could not rival Yoda in force powers, I don't know where you got that crap from. "OH but he stalemated Dooku". Please, Dooku was no match for Yoda, and he knew it. Do you understand the term "unrivaled"? He was never defeated in any type of combat, he was beating Sidious, unless you start using a lightsnake argument. Oh but Ulic is instantly better because he fought without the force. Right, because you can quantify his power with the force right? Oh wait, you can't. Throw in an argument, not an opinion champ, but you defending TOTJ is qute entertaining.
And Janus, do you even bother to read the thread before throwing out your insignificant opinion? Why not try throwing in a debate once in a while. So far all you ever do is follow IKC's posts with "I agree", or "Well said" or "pwnt" or "I love you". Yet you can't throw in something to tell me i'm wrong which I find hilarous. You're the only one I see not adding anything after his posts except your congratulations.. So in conclusion, you coming into a thread with no basis for your post, is indeed humorous
tdtd, I have debated in this forum- more than anyone else and since the very day of its creation. I feel entitled to agree with IKC, especially since he's making the same argument I would. Why be redundant? If there's something I feel the need to add, I will.
But really... if my opinion is "insignificant"... why do you care anyways?
because I don't see you throwing in an argument of your own, but i'm glad you feel it's more important to google images and edit the. Way to use your time wisely.
On another note, it's funny how you TOTJ fans think a feat such as using a saber without the force makes Ulic uber powerful, without even being able to quantify that power or throwing in a couter argument. I love the "It's TOTJ, he can use a saber without the force, therefore he's better than all of PT" mentality.
Hmmm.. I'm a troll, when I was in this thread right when it was made offering arguments, and you came in for the first time with 2-3 words of unwarranted opinion/personal attack. Oh wait, isn't that a troll? Yea perhaps you should look it up as well, and next time I want your opinion I suppose I'll ask IKC for it, troll.
Neither am I, and i'm waiting on a counterargument Glentract, and since Janus can't offer one since IKC isn't here, maybe you can, since I know you like both Ulic and Yoda based on your site.. So far argue this and instead chooses to ignore it and continue with the idea that their opinions are facts, which is a regular on this forum.
Originally posted by tdtd
How adorable, my arguments are opinions while your opinions are arguments. How long have you been lying to yourself? You still fail to understand the concept of hypocrisy. But lets try again, your debating skills get worse and worse when it comes to TOTJ...
You aren't the overriding center of the universe, no matter what your mama may tell you. Why do you think you understand better then IKC or Janus? They're are ton more knowledgeable then you.
Originally posted by tdtd
Dooku could not rival Yoda in force powers, I don't know where you got that crap from. "OH but he stalemated Dooku". Please, Dooku was no match for Yoda, and he knew it. Do you understand the term "unrivaled"? He was never defeated in any type of combat, he was beating Sidious, unless you start using a lightsnake argument. Oh but Ulic is instantly better because he fought without the force. Right, because you can quantify his power with the force right? Oh wait, you can't. Throw in an argument, not an opinion champ, but you defending TOTJ is qute entertaining.
"Please, Dooku was no match for Yoda, and he knew it."
This is opinion.
"He was never defeated in any type of combat"
Untrue. He LOST to Sidious. Sidious blasted Yoda's ass on the Senate pod.
"unless you start using a lightsnake argument."
And a Lightsnake argument is...?
"Right, because you can quantify his power with the force right?"
"Throw in an argument, not an opinion champ, but you defending TOTJ is qute entertaining."
Practice what you preach.
We can. How? It's simple, really. Ulic stalemated Exar. They both went on to grow much more powerful after the fight. Unless you think someone who was able to stalemate Exar for a while would lose to Yoda, shut up. If you think Yoda is that close to Exar in power, a whole new range of targets appears on your argument.
Originally posted by tdtd
And Janus, do you even bother to read the thread before throwing out your insignificant opinion? Why not try throwing in a debate once in a while. So far all you ever do is follow IKC's posts with "I agree", or "Well said" or "pwnt" or "I love you". Yet you can't throw in something to tell me i'm wrong which I find hilarous. You're the only one I see not adding anything after his posts except your congratulations.. So in conclusion, you coming into a thread with no basis for your post, is indeed humorous
I'm not going to take the time to respond with more then this sentence to this pile of shit.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You aren't the overriding center of the universe, no matter what your mama may tell you. Why do you think you understand better then IKC or Janus? They're are ton more knowledgeable then you."Please, Dooku was no match for Yoda, and he knew it."
This is opinion.
"He was never defeated in any type of combat"
Untrue. He LOST to Sidious. Sidious blasted Yoda's ass on the Senate pod.
"unless you start using a lightsnake argument."
And a Lightsnake argument is...?
"Right, because you can quantify his power with the force right?"
"Throw in an argument, not an opinion champ, but you defending TOTJ is qute entertaining."
Practice what you preach.
We can. How? It's simple, really. Ulic stalemated Exar. They both went on to grow much more powerful after the fight. Unless you think someone who was able to stalemate Exar for a while would lose to Yoda, shut up. If you think Yoda is that close to Exar in power, a whole new range of targets appears on your argument.
I'm not going to take the time to respond with more then this sentence to this pile of shit.
Dooku being second to Yoda is a fact, not opinion "champ". Yoda being the most powerful in saber and force combat is fact, not opinion, champ.
He lost to Sidious? What fight were you watching? Sidious was the one with the "oh shit i'm screwed" look before they BOTH were blasted off the pod. Yoda, being the lighter one was a victim of circumstance, nowhere did it show Sidious ever blasting Yoda off the pod, at least provide accurate evidence for your argument. Oh and if you're going to say "well Yoda lost because he didn't destroy the sith", I'll respond with "no, Yoda won because he lived to train Luke Skywalker, who was responsible for the end of the sith". Next, you still have yet to quantify Ulic's power. I've come to the realization that none of the TOTJ fans want to touch this since it can't be argued and it might greatly diminish their character's power.. Moving on, Ulic stalemated Kun before Kun developed his new saber AND style. Before Kun did that, he could NOT defeat Vodo, understand? Therefore Ulic<Vodo. So where in all of that blabbering text did you prove that Ulic is greater than Yoda? I mean at least IKC attempted to provide Ulic's irrelevant feats.
Originally posted by tdtd
Dooku being second to Yoda is a fact, not opinion "champ".
Really? Where did you define this "fact" from? Do you have a credible source or argument, tdtd?
Yoda being the most powerful in saber and force combat is fact, not opinion, champ.
I doubt this. Again, prove up or shut up. I haven't seen you reference one credible source since you've came here. Also, how can you ***** about me agreeing with IKC when all you do is lick Nai's ass everytime he reaffirms your bias?
He lost to Sidious? What fight were you watching? Sidious was the one with the "oh shit i'm screwed" look before they BOTH were blasted off the pod.
Again, you're missing the point- Yoda was unable to overcome Sidious through the force or the saber. This goes AGAINST your argument that he's the top-notch in both. Yoda could NOT disarm or kill Sidious with either the force or the lightsaber, and Sidious was able to better use the environment to his advantage. Did you think Yoda hopping down to the low ground while fighting a sith lord was a smart thing? One thing I have to point out is that Yoda himself jumped down. He wasn't forced down, and certainly Sidious didn't even have a saber in his hands. Why the hell would he do that? So now you've drawn focus to the idea that Yoda is an idiot in combat and this again strikes against your argument of him being uber. After all, Ulic was in a precarious situation and was clearly in the disadvantage, yet he didn't lose his ass like Yoda did. And at this point, if you attempt to make up excuses like "Oh, Yoda's little" or "Oh, Yoda's old", you undermine Yoda's power again.
So face it- Yoda couldn't contend with Sidious, who is roughly the same duelling level as Mace and Dooku.
Yoda, being the lighter one was a victim of circumstance, nowhere did it show Sidious ever blasting Yoda off the pod, at least provide accurate evidence for your argument.
See above. Yoda was a victim of stupidity and weakness, unless you'd like to PROVE that he beat Sidious in anything other than the Force tug-o-war. He certainly didn't pwn him in saber combat before Sidious got the high ground, did he? Yoda was all over his ass, hammering away and Sidious had nowhere to go and a disadvantage at hitting him, yet he managed. Obviously, if Yoda was Der Meister at all things, he would have crushed Sidious like a bug with his own desk in the office and bisected him.
Oh and if you're going to say "well Yoda lost because he didn't destroy the sith", I'll respond with "no, Yoda won because he lived to train Luke Skywalker, who was responsible for the end of the sith".
Yoda himself admits he lost. So stfu.
Next, you still have yet to quantify Ulic's power.
I just did.
Ulic with a disadvantage beats Mandalore. Later on, without the Force aiding him, stalemates a jedi who's enraged.
That's two counts of being on the short end of the stick and far surpassing what others could do. Yoda had the disadvantage with Sidious and he lost his ass. Likewise, both times he confronted the Sith he had the element of surprise and he had a fair setting. With Dooku, he failed to defeat him and Dooku was able to outthink him and get away. With Sidious, Sidious was able to outthink him and get to higher ground.
I really don't see Yoda coming out of this argument with his dignity intact, do you?
I've come to the realization that none of the TOTJ fans want to touch this since it can't be argued and it might greatly diminish their character's power..
That's just you being ignorant and classifying people. And since it has nothing to do with the debate at hand, I'll leave it at that.
Moving on, Ulic stalemated Kun before Kun developed his new saber AND style.
He did make a new style? And it was this style that gave him the edge over Vodo? Can you PROVE this, or is this another unsubstantiated claim?
Before Kun did that, he could NOT defeat Vodo, understand?
O rly? Can you PROVE this? Or is it opinion, tdtd?
Therefore Ulic<Vodo.
False conclusion. Your premises aren't in order. Try again, champ.
So where in all of that blabbering text did you prove that Ulic is greater than Yoda? I mean at least IKC attempted to provide Ulic's irrelevant feats.
Ulic's irrelevant feats? Oh, I get it- if the other party doesn't champion your favored character in a match, the feats are irrelevant, the facts are opinions, and they are all TOTJ fanboys, is that correct?
Please, tdtd. You are an amateur at debate. Go home.
Could't contend with Sidious? Or couldn't beat? Two different things Janus.. Yoda admits he lost? Or admits he failed because he wasn't able to defeat the sith? Shut up until you watch the movie again.. It's funny how you try to downplay Yoda with the belief that he "lost" or "let" Dooku get away, failing to notice the metal that was about to fall on Anakin and Obiwan, and then failing to see Sidious face right before they both were thrown off the platform, so tell me where Yoda lost? Remember this is Star Wars, not Star Wars according to Janus.. Ah, so Ulic beating Mandalore and stalemating Sylvan or whatever the hell his/her name is, quantifies his power to be superior to Yoda's? I'll just leave that as a personal opinion. You want me to prove that Vodo could still beat Kun at this point? The onus is on you to prove Kun became better than Vodo before he developed his new style and saber, even if it might diminish the power of your TOTJ characters.. Now if Kun<Vodo, then Ulic<Vodo because Ulic at best was equal to Kun.. So it's not a false conclusion on my part.. So far you've listed a bunch of personal opinions, how nice Janus. By the way, calling me an "amateur at debate", I assume you mean debating of course, is yet another unwarranted and insignificant opinion on your part, especially since we're only debating 1 subject that I know less about than half of the people here, so good job making a general quote from a specific topic Janus, that was REALLY Logical, "champ".
Originally posted by tdtd
Could't contend with Sidious? Or couldn't beat? Two different things Janus..
I'd say that he couldn't beat him using the saber, and he couldn't contend with him when Sidious took the high ground. If he could, he would have beaten Sidious either using the saber, or crushed him with the force. Obviously, Yoda > Sidious is misleading, because the margin of combat capability is pretty small. Either that, or you want to argue that Yoda was a victim of poor luck?
Yoda admits he lost? Or admits he failed because he wasn't able to defeat the sith? Shut up until you watch the movie again..
"Failed, I have." What was his mission, tdtd? Oh wait... he was going to end Sidious' reign. Which would mean killing him or at the very least rendering him harmless. That didn't happen. Hence, he LOST.
It's funny how you try to downplay Yoda with the belief that he "lost" or "let" Dooku get away, failing to notice the metal that was about to fall on Anakin and Obiwan, and then failing to see Sidious face right before they both were thrown off the platform, so tell me where Yoda lost?
I think you missed the point on the Dooku fight- he didn't overcome Dooku with the force or the saber, and Dooku simply outthought him and escaped. Sidious outthought him later on and got to the high ground. Yes, I know Yoda beat Sidious in the Force tug-o-war; I've argued that myself. But Yoda lost the match. And he lost it well before that sequence ever came up. He failed to kill Sidious with the force in the first place. He failed to penetrate Sidious' saber defenses (Though Mace could). He failed to recover from the force assault and finish the job. Damn. I guess he lost his ass on that match, huh?
Remember this is Star Wars, not Star Wars according to Janus..
I love how you hate on IKC but you steal his quotes all the time. There's another one coming up in your post. Oh, and btw you're the one with the "my opinions are fact" mindset here. Don't try and pawn off your faults on me, troll.
Ah, so Ulic beating Mandalore and stalemating Sylvan or whatever the hell his/her name is, quantifies his power to be superior to Yoda's?
You have NO clue about the fights in question, yet you say they are "irrelevant"? By that logic, all of NJO is irrelevant because I didn't read any of the books. Good job at hypocrisy, tdtd. Go read the source material first, then come back and argue against what's in the material. Don't just go "OMfg I don't believe in it, Yoda is teh bettur!!!" when you don't know jack shit about Ulic Qel-Droma.
I'll just leave that as a personal opinion. You want me to prove that Vodo could still beat Kun at this point? The onus is on you to prove Kun became better than Vodo before he developed his new style and saber, even if it might diminish the power of your TOTJ characters..
The onus, eh? Do you steal all of IKC's words? Trying to learn something from other people who can reason? It's admirable, though you're still failing miserably.
No, "the onus" is on YOU, because you made the claim just before that it was Kun's new style that made the difference and defeated Vodo, and not anyhing else. You dealt us an absolute judgment on something I doubt you even read, and now you want ME to prove otherwise? I can play that game...
Yoda had less force potential than Sidious.
Go ahead... prove me wrong. The onus is on your, since you said that Yoda was the master of both. Prove that Yoda's force potential is superior to Sidious'.
Now if Kun<Vodo, then Ulic<Vodo because Ulic at best was equal to Kun.. So it's not a false conclusion on my part..
So if A = B, and A < C, B < C? That would seem to work, except that Dooku < Obi-Wan, yet Anakin < Dooku, yet Obi-Wan < Anakin. So it doesn't just "stack up" like that, tdtd. Also, you failed to substantiate how much Kun changed in saber prowess from the time he challenged Ulic to the confrontation in the senate chamber. I'm awaiting your credible sources, tdtd. You can spring them out any time now.
So far you've listed a bunch of personal opinions, how nice Janus.
Really? No, I've been pointing out that you're making claims without backing them up. You say "Yoda beat Sidious and was superior" and then go on to validify that with "Look at Sidious' face during the lightning battle". Uh, no. That's not proving your case. You don't even have any canon evidence to draw on other than your own biased viewings on the ROTS battle scene. No script, no novelisation, no other EU sources... Hell, you don't even know who or what Sylvar is yet you're arguing that defending against her without the force using a lightsaber is somehow less of a feat than being pwned by a closet Sith/politician. Ignroance is not an excuse for an opinion, tdtd. Go read up before you come back here.
By the way, calling me an "amateur at debate", I assume you mean debating of course, is yet another unwarranted and insignificant opinion on your part, especially since we're only debating 1 subject that I know less about than half of the people here, so good job making a general quote from a specific topic Janus, that was REALLY Logical, "champ".
Was there a point in that overly long sentence? No, didn't think so. You are an amateur. You don't even have passing knowledge of the source material you're downplaying; that's pathetic.
You're saying Yoda couldn't beat him with a saber Janus? Have you read the book? It usually has those fill in scenes that the movie doesn't, like Yoda disarming Sidious.. I won't say Yoda was a victim of poor luck, but you can watch the movies again and see who was winning at the end.. I wouldn't put failed and lost under the same category, unless of course I want to say that Sidious wanted to destroy Yoda as much as Yoda wanted to destroy Sidious, because Sidious knew Yoda would be a great threat. That fight was a stalemate if anything, and yet Yoda survived, so he 'won' in the longterm, if we're going to go that route. He failed to defeat Sidious, he did not lose the fight to him, two different things. Stop calling me a troll when your first post in this thread was a stupid comment worthy of a troll, that would make you a hypocrite. And what does me using someone's quotes have to do with anything? You interpreting things differently than how they happened IS "Star Wars according to Janus".. Again I love how you judge my 'ability to reason' based on a star wars forum, knowing I work with whatever information I have. I'm not sure what you mean buy Yoda has less force potential than Sidious, i'm skimming through that part, but I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. Youre right I don't know how much better Kun got, so it's no place for me to judge, at the same time you have no place to say Ulic is better than Yoda because he stalemated Kun, because then youre just assuming that kun got a lot better, without any proof of course.. You're right, the A>B>C argument doesn't work in all cases, but my point is if Kun is better than Vodo and equal to Ulic, then Ulic in most cases would be better than Vodo, unless you'd like to disprove that one.. Oh and you're right, George Lucas DIDNT say the fight was a stalemate, he said Yoda lost right? Oh wait, no.. Amateur at star wars compared to most of you maybe, calling me an amateur debater in general is just a baseless opinion. Try again Janus, this time without getting angry and using personal attacks because i've insulted your favorite characters.
Originally posted by tdtd
You're saying Yoda couldn't beat him with a saber Janus?
Yes, I am.
Here's the link to the battle in case you slept through it: Here
Have you read the book? It usually has those fill in scenes that the movie doesn't, like Yoda disarming Sidious..
Yes, I read parts of the book. Unfortunately, movie canon overrides the book, which is error-ridden and based on an earlier version of the script. According to SW canon policy, movies over scripts since they are the final product of GL's vision. So what we saw is what we have. And again, Yoda did NOT kill Sidious. If he was as good as you first asserted, he would have bent Sidious over and saberraped him. But he didn't. Hence, he's not as good as you claim or he wouldn't have been in danger of losing from a disarmed man.
I won't say Yoda was a victim of poor luck, but you can watch the movies again and see who was winning at the end..
Yeah, gravity > Yoda. I saw that.
I wouldn't put failed and lost under the same category, unless of course I want to say that Sidious wanted to destroy Yoda as much as Yoda wanted to destroy Sidious, because Sidious knew Yoda would be a great threat. That fight was a stalemate if anything, and yet Yoda survived, so he 'won' in the longterm, if we're going to go that route. He failed to defeat Sidious, he did not lose the fight to him, two different things.
He lost the battle. Hence, he did not win. IF Yoda was as good as you claim, THEN he would have destroyed Sidious.
Stop calling me a troll when your first post in this thread was a stupid comment worthy of a troll, that would make you a hypocrite.
I can't call it like I see it? Oh, I'm sorry, Sir Troll. Please forgive.
And what does me using someone's quotes have to do with anything?
It makes you hilarious, because you call IKC a fanboy and a moron, yet you steal his logos and terms.
You interpreting things differently than how they happened IS "Star Wars according to Janus"..
By this logic, everything ever said on this forum is "SW according to X". But you are mistaking that little line for something else. See, "SW according to Nai" is when Nai starts grossly misinterpreating canon information and arguing against established fact. He did that in the other thread, where PT jedi > ToTJ Jedi. That's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Again I love how you judge my 'ability to reason' based on a star wars forum, knowing I work with whatever information I have.
I do. You've been here since November, and you supposively have some novels and comics, yet you "don't have the material"? That's a sad excuse. I don't own a copy of the Koran, but that doesn't give me free reign to start shitting on it rampantly.
There. You have no excuse for ignorance on the comics now.
I'm not sure what you mean buy Yoda has less force potential than Sidious, i'm skimming through that part, but I'm assuming you're being sarcastic.
I was. You're trying to twist things around and make me prove my point when you first made the unsupported assertion. It doesn't work like that; you prove up.
Youre right I don't know how much better Kun got, so it's no place for me to judge, at the same time you have no place to say Ulic is better than Yoda because he stalemated Kun, because then youre just assuming that kun got a lot better, without any proof of course..
You made the claim though. You admit it was unsupported, and thus "opinion". So you're a hypocrite and an ignoramus on the topic. That's two strikes against you.
You're right, the A>B>C argument doesn't work in all cases, but my point is if Kun is better than Vodo and equal to Ulic, then Ulic in most cases would be better than Vodo, unless you'd like to disprove that one..
No, first you claimed that Kun improved with a new style and that's how he beat Vodo. Ergo, in this line of thinking, Kun improved but Ulic did not. This also operates on the assumption that improvement was needed (Which may be the case, but there's no proof from you. It's a bogus claim on your part without anything to back it up.) Then you said that Vodo > Ulic, which begs for proof. So that's where that argument got started. Stay on track, please.
Oh and you're right, George Lucas DIDNT say the fight was a stalemate, he said Yoda lost right? Oh wait, no.. Amateur at star wars compared to most of you maybe, calling me an amateur debater in general is just a baseless opinion. Try again Janus, this time without getting angry and using personal attacks because i've insulted your favorite characters.
Getting angry? Please, don't make me laugh. If you think I get angry over this forum, you're deluded.
Btw...
I read a bunch of stuff but in terms of TOTJ I only have DLOTS and Sith War.. I'm trying to not read that until KOTOR and Freedon Nadd Uprising come in.. Also, since when did IKC invent these terms you speak of? I notice the majority of you get angry because personal attacks start coming out, followed be useless pictures, of course that's your opinion though and that's as far as it goes, which is alright by me champ. And I was making a point that Ulic=Kun at some point, and claimed that I don't know if Kun could or could not defeat Vodo at this point. Alright.... So when Vodo and Kun were fighting and Kun wasn't able to budge him(or as you like to say toying with him), and Kun turned on his second blade and killed Vodo, what does that mean to you.. Really, you don't have to play stupid, you can interpret that logically. Kun wasn't able to beat Vodo with a single blade, therefore we know Ulic couldn't beat Vodo with a single blade because Ulic=Kun at best, and this was before Kun developed his style/blade...
Oh yea, I love it how you say I kiss Nai's ass when I disagree with his PT Jedi>TOTJ Jedi, but when you two verbally fellate each other, it's normal. I love how your logic only exists when it involves star wars.