DE Sidious vs Ulic Qel Droma and Yoda

Started by Janus Marius9 pages
Originally posted by kamikz
Vodo's staff was said to be more powerfull than a lightsaber was it not? Then how the hell can Kun break it?

Apparently Kun > Vodo's Staff > Lightsaber. Except while a lightsaber likely can't be disrupted or destroyed by another lightsaber, the staff is MADE stronger by Vodo's control of the Force. If Kun breaks it, it means he overpowers Vodo's control of the Force.

Unless you think the narrator was lying.


Nai is right, Vodo (when he says all about that they will meet again) is only standing there, heck, he even let's Kun hold his lightsaber OVER his staff and he doesen't do a shit about it.

Apparently the concept that comics are done in still frames eluded you. We SEE Kun's lightsaber hovering over his staff, but if you think it's a five minute pause instead of an instant still frame, you have a lot to learn about comics. There's motion there. Just because it's not an animation doesn't mean there isn't motion there.

And as you can see, Vodo is not even holding the staff over his head, it's at his chest.

For that second, yes. And later, when Kun hammerstrikes him, it's over his head. Like he blocked it the last few times. Vodo comes up to Kun's naval; he's going to be blocking high or mid level.

If you are to parry a strike from above you lift you're weapon above you're head. Like when someone strikes you from the sides, you have to put you're sword beside the body to do a successful parry, and Obi-Wan in ANH didn't do this, same as Vodo did not hold it above his head, he let it hit him.....they do not need to be in the same pose.

Don't be silly; Vodo WAS blocking the attacks, and properly. The fact that Kun cut THROUGH Vodo's staff to kill him implies that there was some blocking going on. If you don't believe in this and you want to argue against the comics, go join Nai for another drink.


And the most logical explanation is that Vodo did not longer support his staff with the froce but instead let Kun cut through it, what logic is there that Kun can smash something stronger than a lightsaber with brute strenght?

See above. Kun > Vodo's enhanced staff > lightsaber strength.

Vodo was blocking each hit beforehand using his staff. Apparently, he felt he could use that staff to defeat Exar Kun. He certainly wasn't there to TALK him out of being a Sith Lord. Don't be daft- Kun overpowered the staff and Vodo in turn. Period.


And since Kun cut him from head to toe he is bound to hit his staff to, why would he care to avoid it?

If vodo wasn't moving, why hit it?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Apparently Kun > Vodo's Staff > Lightsaber. Except while a lightsaber likely can't be disrupted or destroyed by another lightsaber, the staff is MADE stronger by Vodo's control of the Force. If Kun breaks it, it means he overpowers Vodo's control of the Force.

Unless you think the narrator was lying.

Apparently the concept that comics are done in still frames eluded you. We SEE Kun's lightsaber hovering over his staff, but if you think it's a five minute pause instead of an instant still frame, you have a lot to learn about comics. There's motion there. Just because it's not an animation doesn't mean there isn't motion there.

For that second, yes. And later, when Kun hammerstrikes him, it's over his head. Like he blocked it the last few times. Vodo comes up to Kun's naval; he's going to be blocking high or mid level.

Don't be silly; Vodo WAS blocking the attacks, and properly. The fact that Kun cut THROUGH Vodo's staff to kill him implies that there was some blocking going on. If you don't believe in this and you want to argue against the comics, go join Nai for another drink.

See above. Kun > Vodo's enhanced staff > lightsaber strength.

Vodo was blocking each hit beforehand using his staff. Apparently, he felt he could use that staff to defeat Exar Kun. He certainly wasn't there to TALK him out of being a Sith Lord. Don't be daft- Kun overpowered the staff and Vodo in turn. Period.

If vodo wasn't moving, why hit it?

1. But how exactly could he break it? I don't get what you mean, that he puts the force into his strenght or that he breaks Vodo's will?

2. Guess I have alot to learn then....

4. Sorry, I'm underage....

5. I just remembered that other comic, where they sparred and Kun broke his lightsaber. That was what I needed to know, cause I thought there was no logic in Kun breaking his staff (which was stronger than a lightsaber) except if Vodo let him, but he woulden't have let him do it in a sparring duel so.......

And I lack knowledge of Kun's era, so I won't keep talking.
Thanks......

Its more than likely that the Force Kun possessed completely overpowered Vodo's control, thus making him unable to hold off against Kun's saber. Its the same concept as this : I'm in a fight with you, I have greater strength, and when i hit you with all i can and you block there is a huge chance you wont be able to block me, and thus you fail.

Originally posted by Janus Marius

Hey look, Nai! Vodo blocking with his staff horizontally!
Hey look... notice that in the middle two panels the defending parties aren't moving. OMg... I guess they didn't really block! Exar Kun gave up! But fortunately, Vodo didn't take the bait and hit his blade full on. Immediately afterwards, Vodo surrenders to this awesome display of power, and he gives up. But Kun hits the staff instead!

Seriously, how deluded can you be?

Hey look, Janus! He's attacking Kun. Is this the scene were Kun totally dominates and saber-rapes him ? And of course they aren't moving. They just leave image blurs by standing still. Wow. How much ignorance can somebody show ?

Hey look! He's doing it again! The universal sign of Vodo-surrender! Or is it a block? Zomg! I have no clue!

But there's no motion. It MUST be a surrender pose!

Oh, great. Kun still not moving while leaving image blurs. Must be a good trick to leave signs for movement without actually moving anyway in contrary to the last picture, huh ?

Here it is, Nai: Vodo GIVING UP. He's in the universal bloc- erm... surrender pose. He's said his goodbyes, and everything. Why, even though he's given up, Exar Kun is still stuck in that crazy battle mode and smashes right through the staff that is in his blade's way.

Again: How often do you want to ignore Vodo's speech there ?
How often do you want to ignore the fact that - if he could have pwn Vodo's force defence - would have done that little thing before ?
How much ignorance for the little fact that Vodo couldn't have known the moment Kun pwns his force defence do you want to display ?

Man...you are arguing a position in which Vodo apparently remained for seconds and you call that a block ? WTF ? You have no blurs left by the saber / the staff like in all the pictures before but they must have moved ?

And Vodo just acknowledges defeat before he is beaten. But he wanted to continue the fight and tried to block Kun's final blow - that's why he isn't moving one centrimetre but keeps holding it's staff were it was the entire time ?

More polemics you want to feed me, Janus ?
I'm done here...I've always thought that arguing human walls is a waste of my precious free-time.

Well, Vodo did fight Exar Kun with the intent to stop him, however its quite clear within the fight Vodo knew he was going to lose, he could do nothing but defend against Kun's blows, and eventually when Kun actually unleashed more of his power Vodo couldn't defend it and was killed.

Now, i do realise my error in considering Kun was "toying" with him, all in respects Kun was not unleashing his full power in he was serious about winning the fight as soon as he unleashed his saber. However when Kun actually depicted more of his power Vodo stood no chance whatsoever.

Originally posted by Deception
Well, Vodo did fight Exar Kun with the intent to stop him, however its quite clear within the fight Vodo knew he was going to lose, he could do nothing but defend against Kun's blows, and eventually when Kun actually unleashed more of his power Vodo couldn't defend it and was killed.

Yes. Vodo did fight Exar with the intention to stop him. I won't argue that Kun is superior to Vodo in terms of combat because otherwise Vodo would have stopped him. On the other hand, as far as we see, Kun went into the fight with the intention to defeat and then convert Vodo in a "rematch" like the one in which Vodo did beat him before and that means one lightsaber vs Vodo's staff...so apparently Kun crossed his self-limitations by igniting the second blade and he didn't get what he wanted.


Now, i do realise my error in considering Kun was "toying" with him, all in respects Kun was not unleashing his full power in he was serious about winning the fight as soon as he unleashed his saber. However when Kun actually depicted more of his power Vodo stood no chance whatsoever.

You can't enter a fight when not being serious about winning. To me it looks like as if Exar overestimated his own powers/saber ability (thinking he could pwn Vodo rather easily), then ignited his second blade (which was a surprise for Vodo) and then Vodo realized that winning is not possible and so he stopped trying to defeat Kun. Otherwise - as I've said before - neither the fight before (where Vodo attacked Kun) nor Vodos monoloque do make any sense.

And still I don't see why Kun shouldn't have broken Vodo's staff before if he could do that on his own. He clearly wanted to defeat his master (doesn't matter if for the reason to convert or for the reason to kill him). Simply disarming him would have ended that fight instantly. Why waste time until you sweat instead of pwn your oponent with your first strike - especially when you wanted to demonstate your general uberness right in front of the entire Senate and have several Jedi watching the fight ?

Originally posted by Deception
Now, i do realise my error in considering Kun was "toying" with him

This is no error. He was.

Nai's deluded and apparently cannot read. How about you read the substance of Janus' posts and then realize that you're arguing that Kun moved, when Janus was talking about Vodo not moving?

Please. We can help.

P.S.

How are you dealing with that foot in your mouth after I showed my material?

Originally posted by IKC
This is no error. He was.

Nai's deluded and apparently cannot read. How about you read the substance of Janus' posts and then realize that you're arguing that Kun moved, when Janus was talking about Vodo not moving?

Of course Vodo isn't moving:

What's this then ? Does he just lose hairs or something ?


How are you dealing with that foot in your mouth after I showed my material?

Wasn't that you who said multiple times that he will never touch one of the NJO books and the post-ROTJ EU with exclusion of the Thrawn trilogy sucks ? How could I develop the idea that you know jack shit about the post-ROTJ era when every of your post regarding to that topic just indicates this ? I really don't know...

Yeah...you totally pwned me....by owning 6 of totally 124 (hope that number is correct, just counted my material) OT / post-OT sources ! Nice "foot in my mouth"...really. As I told you before: Cheap polemics don't win debates for you.

el oh el

Originally posted by Borbarad

Yeah...you totally pwned me....by owning 6 of totally 124 (hope that number is correct, just counted my material) OT / post-OT sources ! Nice "foot in my mouth"...really. As I told you before: Cheap polemics don't win debates for you.

Damn, better get the fire dept. in here...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Of course Vodo isn't moving:

What's this then ? Does he just lose hairs or something ?

Good work taking a scan from a scene that Janus wasn't arguing. Put your glasses on, the beer down, and read his ****ing argument.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wasn't that you who said multiple times that he will never touch one of the NJO books and the post-ROTJ EU with exclusion of the Thrawn trilogy sucks ?

Ah yes, ad hominem tu quoque! Nice job with the logical fallacies.

This suddenly translates to "I know jack shit about that time period!" with Nai Interpretation (© 2006, Bullshit Industries). Act now, and soon you too will be able to make all the unsupported assumptions you like! With our "Thick as a Post" expansion package, you'll be able to constantly refute the words of your opponents by making the same points over and over again, thus ensuring victory by attrition as your opponents throw their hands up in disgust and merely leave the field! Just ask United States Senator Robert C. Byrd:

"During the Civil Rights Movement, I held up Senate business for 14 hours in a futile attempt to block the Civil Rights Act. If I had had the Nai Interpretation and Thick as a Post packages, I could have kept blacks as second class citizens for at least another ten years!"

How could I develop the idea that you know jack shit about the post-ROTJ era when every of your post regarding to that topic just indicates this ?

Uh, what? You mean every one of my posts, right? Care to, oh, I don't know, say... point it out?

Drinks, anyone?

No, not you.

You've had enough.

Yeah...you totally pwned me....by owning 6 of totally 124 (hope that number is correct, just counted my material) OT / post-OT sources ! Nice "foot in my mouth"...really.

Oh, 124? Really? Mind giving me a list? I'm sure the NJO and more minor book series like Young Jedi Knights adds to the number.

Oh, by the way, my count was 20, and what I shot wasn't even my entire collection. Good counting there Nai, but I thought alcohol was supposed to give you double vision?

Cheap polemics don't win debates for you.

po·lem·ic
n.

1. A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.
2. A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

Uh...huh. That's okay, don't need 'em.

I counted 6-7 personal attacks with that lovely commercial in the paragraph... One of you is drunk.

Originally posted by IKC
Good work taking a scan from a scene that Janus wasn't arguing. Put your glasses on, the beer down, and read his ****ing argument.

Lmao. I suggest you put on your glasses because this one:

is clearly a part of that one:

Good way not having a look at what's going on...


Ah yes, ad hominem tu quoque! Nice job with the logical fallacies.

Nice observation of "ad hominem" argumentation where it wasn't present.


This suddenly translates to "I know jack shit about that time period!" with Nai Interpretation (© 2006, Bullshit Industries).

No. That's what you constantly post-ROTJ bashing (especially Luke) combined with you constant ignorance and contradiction of the post-OT sources translates to.


Act now, and soon you too will be able to make all the unsupported assumptions you like! With our "Thick as a Post" expansion package, you'll be able to constantly refute the words of your opponents by making the same points over and over again, thus ensuring victory by attrition as your opponents throw their hands up in disgust and merely leave the field! Just ask United States Senator Robert C. Byrd:

"During the Civil Rights Movement, I held up Senate business for 14 hours in a futile attempt to block the Civil Rights Act. If I had had the Nai Interpretation and Thick as a Post packages, I could have kept blacks as second class citizens for at least another ten years!"

Nice try considering that this was coming from the guy who's 1-bit brain capacity enables him to give wrong answers to mathematical problems which only consist of the mind-blowing addition of two one-digit numbers - and that in just 3 hours !

Go and get yourself "SourceIgnorances" newly developed IE-"Bullshit your way through"-Add-On 2.7 with "opinion filtre" and "inconvenient fact overwrite" to beat everyone in debates. Or just enable yourself to ignore even the brightest truth shining from your monitor with LogicBans newly developed sunglasses (seen in M.I.B - Man I'm Blind).

Really, IKC. Getting angry that fast ? You pathetic attempt to insult me was pretty...pathetic. Maybe I will take you serious again when you've learned how to act like an adult, kid.


Oh, 124? Really? Mind giving me a list? I'm sure the NJO and more minor book series like Young Jedi Knights adds to the number.

X-Wing series (= 9 books)
The Courtship of Princess Leia
Tatooine Ghost
Thrawn trilogy (= 3 books)
Jedi Academy trilogy (= 3 books)
I, Jedi
Callista trilogy (=3 books)
The Crystal Star
Black Fleet Trilogy (=3 books)
The New Rebellion
Corellia Trilogy (= 3 books)
Hand of Thrawn (= 2 books)
Junior Jedi Knight series (= 6 books)
Survivor's quest
Young Jedi Knight series (complete = 14 books)
NJO series (= 19 books)
DN trilogy ( = 3 books)

= 74 books

+ comics:
X-Wing rouge leader (3 comics)
Dark Empire I+II (12 comics)
Boba Fett Series (4 comics)
Empires End (2 comics)
Crimson Empire I+II (12 comics)
The Bounty Hunters (1 comic)
Leviathan (4 comics)
Union (4 comics)
Chewbacca (4 comics)

= 46 comics (+ books = 120)

And the Guides for Chronology, Characters, Vehicles and Vessels, Weapons and Technology (= 4 + 120 = 124).

Enough ? That's of course still missing E-Books like Recovery / Ylesia (NJO series) or Forrest Apart, as well as the comic versions of the Thrawn trilogy.


Oh, by the way, my count was 20, and what I shot wasn't even my entire collection. Good counting there Nai, but I thought alcohol was supposed to give you double vision?

I did miss the first picture (with the Thrawn / JA trilogy) and just saw Vector Prime, Survivors Quest, Vision of the Future, Balance Point and Darksaber. And you counted 20 post-OT novels ?

You have the 5 I've counted + Champions of the force, Jedi search, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command, Planet of Twilight and Spectre of the Past. I was talking about post-OT, dude. And that are 11, not 20. Who's drinking here and has double vision again ? Uh-hu. Thought so....

And do another research on the term "polemic" especially relating to sophists philosophy - you might figure out what I'm talking about.

Good way not having a look at what's going on...

Again, put your glasses on, the beer down, and read his ****ing argument.

He clearly was indicating the top panels when he was talking about, *gasp*, VODO BLOCKING.

Nice observation of "ad hominem" argumentation where it wasn't present.

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess you don't know what ad hominem tu quoque is.

I'll enlighten you:

This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or 2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
3. Therefore X is false.

No. That's what you constantly post-ROTJ bashing (especially Luke) combined with you constant ignorance and contradiction of the post-OT sources translates to.

Yeah. My ignorance is astounding to be sure. 🙄

Mind pointing out where I'm "contradicting" the post-OT sources? I can sure point out where you've made shit up regarding post-OT sources.

Nice try considering that this was coming from the guy who's 1-bit brain capacity enables him to give wrong answers to mathematical problems which only consist of the mind-blowing addition of two one-digit numbers - and that in just 3 hours !

Uh, what the **** are you talking about? May I ask where I've ever argued basic math, or even so much as posted anything mathematical?

You're really hitting the bottle hard lately.

Go and get yourself "SourceIgnorances" newly developed IE-"Bullshit your way through"-Add-On 2.7 with "opinion filtre" and "inconvenient fact overwrite" to beat everyone in debates. Or just enable yourself to ignore even the brightest truth shining from your monitor with LogicBans newly developed sunglasses (seen in M.I.B - Man I'm Blind).

Wow. At least mine was funny and applicable to the target. Yours, not so much. Ironically, it applies quite nicely apply to you, though.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Again, Nai, I've never even seen you so much as concede a point. You'll argue until you're blue in the face even when I've proven you wrong. You won't concede that there's ever any facts because you haven't perceived them. Simply because you don't agree with my points, they are somehow false. You haven't established there is even a correlation, much less a causation. You haven't demonstrated any understanding of statistics, you've even CONTRADICTED YOURSELF with the Jedi Archives. But no, you're right. Jedi in TOTJ don't use armor. Jedi in TOTJ all use Niman. Jedi in TOTJ suck. PT Jedi pwn.

Yeah, live in your ignorant bliss. Your observation and interpretation is somehow superior to mine, your word is somehow superior to the narrator.

I guess if you still can't see the light, we're going to have to agree to disagree, as all you do is churn out broken records of what you already said without once giving me a context.

Really, IKC. Getting angry that fast ? You pathetic attempt to insult me was pretty...pathetic. Maybe I will take you serious again when you've learned how to act like an adult, kid.

Oh yeah Nai. I'm stomping around and waving my arms around because "zOMG teh germ@n n000b doesn't agr33 w!th m3!!!011!!ELEVEN." Sure thing.

And is calling me a kid supposed to really... do anything? You're all of four years older than me. My response? BFD. At the very least, I've developed and have applied my capacity for logic. You, though, seem to be lagging.

Maybe it's a language thing.

(= 4 + 120 = 124).

I like how you're adding comic books and essential guides to the list of OT/Post-OT novels.

By that logic, the Star Wars Encyclopedia and the very outdated "Guide to Star Wars" (2nd edition) are a part of that list.

You have the 5 I've counted + Champions of the force, Jedi search, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command, Planet of Twilight and Spectre of the Past. I was talking about post-OT, dude. And that are 11, not 20. Who's drinking here and has double vision again ? Uh-hu. Thought so...

And you're missing the entire Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy (3 books), Heir to the Empire (not pictured), Dark Apprentice, and the "Tales" books.

Your original quote:

I wonder how a fight between two TOTJ characters affects the PT/Post-OT era ? And I wonder even more how the guy that does refute to read past-ROTJ stuff would know anything about said era ?

However, my original quote included the OT as well. Hence, the "Tales" books are included. 20.

The point stands: You asserted that I "(didn't) know anything" about the era. You are wrong.

And do another research on the term "polemic" especially relating to sophists philosophy - you might figure out what I'm talking about.

Oh yeah, I'm going to be told the definition of an English word by a guy who tells me to "do another research."

Read the definition, you'll see you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah. You need this.

Originally posted by IKC
Good work taking a scan from a scene that Janus wasn't arguing. Put your glasses on, the beer down, and read his ****ing argument.

Ah yes, ad hominem tu quoque! Nice job with the logical fallacies.

This suddenly translates to "I know jack shit about that time period!" with Nai Interpretation (© 2006, Bullshit Industries). Act now, and soon you too will be able to make all the unsupported assumptions you like! With our "Thick as a Post" expansion package, you'll be able to constantly refute the words of your opponents by making the same points over and over again, thus ensuring victory by attrition as your opponents throw their hands up in disgust and merely leave the field! Just ask United States Senator Robert C. Byrd:

"During the Civil Rights Movement, I held up Senate business for 14 hours in a futile attempt to block the Civil Rights Act. If I had had the Nai Interpretation and Thick as a Post packages, I could have kept blacks as second class citizens for at least another ten years!"

Uh, what? You mean every one of my posts, right? Care to, oh, I don't know, say... point it out?

Drinks, anyone?

No, not you.

You've had enough.

Oh, 124? Really? Mind giving me a list? I'm sure the NJO and more minor book series like Young Jedi Knights adds to the number.

Oh, by the way, my count was 20, and what I shot wasn't even my entire collection. Good counting there Nai, but I thought alcohol was supposed to give you double vision?

po·lem·ic
n.

1. A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.
2. A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

Uh...huh. That's okay, don't need 'em.

This goes in my profile.

And Nai, you TOTALLY went in another direction from my post. You argued that Vodo wasn't blocking and that he gave up and died in the same blocking pose he'd used in about three other cells. In each blocking cell, there was no movement blurs or lines, so by your cocked up logic, he wasn't moving at all. He must have just stood still while Kun hit him. But that doesn't make any sense. I realize the subtleness of the comic style eludes your grasp, but that doesn't call for denial and flat out ignorance. You COULD concede that your stance is horribly lacking and violates Occam's Razor.

... Or not. Just be a stubborn ass as we go into extra innings. Your choice. Btw, way to post irrelevant counter pics. Bravo.

You kids are so vicious to one another.

The racial insults, IKC? Over the top.

Indeed, some of you just get so angry when someone disagrees with you....Sigh.. What a complicated world we live in.

Originally posted by Faunus
The racial insults, IKC? Over the top.

I didn't notice any racial insults, Faunus. Granted, there was a lot of insulting in that post, but Nai can handle himself (I would assume).

And really, do you HAVE to be angry to make posts like that? I don't think so. I don't fret one minute about these arguments nor do I get angry, and as you can see I can be just as bad.