Dan clarified that was his opinion and while it may be in print now, it could easily change.
Here's the retcon: The Legions of Lettow's status were changed to the first great schism and according to LFL: The Sith Empire was formed after the Second Great Schism, that's it.
Now, we have Palpatine who was stated to have, by arcane or by intense study, mastered a great many aspects of the Force, including all the Sith order had to offer, from all the known, unknown and new techniques he invented.
Sadow himself said that the Empire stagnated and for centuries they'd done nothing but wallow in riches. No conquest, no massive battles, noone to fight but eachother and even that was considered rare. The order was also more sentimental than you give it credit for, just look at how they reacted to Simus's death. One even says "They are monsters!"
And then Naga gives a speech on Simus's nobility...and this isn't laughed off the table...this would be a bit odd if not for Simus's obvious acfection for Naga and Ludo's intense affection for Marka.
Now, here's the next problem: You don't know about Marka's fighting style. We know he's fought at least twice and one time, he lost to a young knight-wielding his ancient weapon, no less- and the first time is hearsay on Simus.
Palpatine was well versed in fighting himself and we've seen him do things that would be on the same level if not above the Ancients. By himself, he's drained the life and energy from worlds and destroyed fleets. Take away the technology from the ancients, because alchemy in no way equals fighting ability and Sidious has the edge. Whatever Marka can throw at Palpatine, force wise, Palpatine would know, by simple fact of what we know he knows alone. I stress that he may know it by arcane means for his method of draining energy and knowledge from captured holocrons and his massive collection of sith paraphanelia.
Palpatine didn't follow Bane's order's philosophy too well...he changed or tossed out rules to suit him as he wished. KJA himself wrote that Sadow destroyed stars with a weapon on his ship, and by the same terms I can refuse to accept the Ancients were so powerful due to their frankly atrocious military record. According to Dan, the winner of the two would depend on the author writing and it's his opinion-only his opinion, don't take it as official- that Ragnos would lose the fight.
What frustrates me so much on the issue is dimishing or tossing out Palpatine's abilities with the Force entirely. He was a brilliant manipulator and deceiver, but he could fight and use the dark side to insane amounts as DE showed. Dooku himself expresses his power in AOTC and in DE, we saw him curse an unborn child, in Empire, he annihilates a battalion of stormies out of irritation with force lightning, destroy an entire fleet and his and Luke's duel radiated shockwaves causing imps to fall over dead...when he died, his death was said to have weakened the darkside badly and it was said every Jedi was required to bind his soul to make his return impossible.
Just because Sidious's order turned towards secrecy to survive doesn't mean they were poor fighters or lacked in power than the ancients...and seriously, there's no excuse for Dor Gal-Ram's death. The climactic duel between Naga and Ludo's greatest expression of the force was a thrown rock
Now, here's the next problem: You don't know about Marka's fighting style. We know he's fought at least twice and one time, he lost to a young knight-wielding his ancient weapon, no less- and the first time is hearsay on Simus.
Yay for ridiculous grasping of the situation at hand! Yay!
You totally overwrite that Ragnos' spirit was over 5000 years old and stuffed into the body of a battered, relatively mediocre force user. And he wasn't even fully resurrected.
You also ignore the fact that it took the force from planets to even attempt to revive him, and that Luke feared if Ragnos were resurrected it would take the entire might of the jedi order to attempt and defeat him. This is a far cry from Sidious who got owned by a much younger Luke and Leia and a baby.
Actually, Luke was talking about stopping Ragnos's ressurection, along with Tavion's mini-army...and still, Ragnos had been training Tavion on Korriban and had access to his own weapon, facing a young knight who'd just fought his way through Korriban and Tavion the first time...and I'm sure it would take energy from worlds to ressurect a five thousand year old dead guy, Ragnos or no Ragnos.
And once more, Luke, Leia and Anakin were channeling practically the entire Force to defeat Palpatine there and not fighting him, but using the light to shield him from the dark. And I could make the argument that it was said that one can't defeat Palpatine by fighting him. Can't use weapons to defeat the dark when the dark's made war its own weapon, I believe was Yoda's reminiscing, in the novelization, which is a G-canon source
The Force Illumination specified it was the potential of the three individuals. Never was there ever a quantifiable, non-hyperbolic mention of channeling the "whole force."
Actually, Luke was talking about stopping Ragnos's ressurection, along with Tavion's mini-army
No it wasn't. "If Marka Ragnos is revived, it will take all of the Jedi Order to try to stop him."
and still, Ragnos had been training Tavion on Korriban and had access to his own weapon
It was a body that was beaten just moments earlier. Honestly, if I put a champion boxer's brain into a quadrapalegic, can I go win the title belt?
That was just rude...novelizations are G-canon. Here's the proof:
G-canon is absolute canon; the six Episodes and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html
Where they do not conflict with the spirit or fact of the canon, other sources are considered. These sources themselves must be sorted according to an order of precedence. First are the film novelisations and the radio dramas. This material is acceptable where it adds to or simply reiterates what is known from the films.
And yeah, it said they drew energy from pretty much everywhere, from Mon Calimari's oceans, to from the metal of the Emperor's throne room. Movie novelizations are the first level of precedence in the EU
Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon
Lightsnake, can you VERIFY that the ELEMENT of Yoda's THOUGHTS were indeed not only accurate, but of George Lucas' intent and not the author's own take on the situation? I mean, Stover talks about lightsaber forms, which GL doesn't even address.
Read thoroughly before you spout of nonsense, man.
Originally posted by Illustrious
The Force Illumination specified it was the potential of the three individuals. Never was there ever a [b]quantifiable, non-hyperbolic mention of channeling the "whole force."No it wasn't. "If Marka Ragnos is revived, it will take all of the Jedi Order to try to stop him." [/B]
It was specified later on, I've typed out the text before.
And no, Luke says "If Marka Ragnos is ressurected there's no telling what he might do. It will take all of our strength (Or forces, forgot which) to stop him."
Taken one way, you could think Luke's going there to fight the ressurected Ragnos and not take on the large cult. Especially when he's already talked about stopping Tavion from her course. And now, we now Ragnos is leading the cult, so it would be his forces they're attacking...particularly the army of cultists and Tavion.
Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon
There you go Lightsnake. I emphasized the relevant section for you, since you seem to have glossed over it (par for the course with you). Looks like novelizations aren't G-Canon unless the material is provided directly by Lucas.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Lightsnake, can you VERIFY that the ELEMENT of Yoda's THOUGHTS were indeed not only accurate, but of George Lucas' intent and not the author's own take on the situation? I mean, Stover talks about lightsaber forms, which GL doesn't even address.Read thoroughly before you spout of nonsense, man.
They're in a source of canon that takes precedence over any other in a non contradicting area. That puts them above any other level of the EU.
Originally posted by IKC
There you go Lightsnake. I emphasized the relevant section for you, since you seem to have glossed over it (par for the course with you). Looks like novelizations aren't G-Canon unless the material is provided directly by Lucas.
Great work reading the other link, IKC...novelizations take full precedence over other EU sources. We have Mr. Wallace here for questions.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Janus, I thought we reached some sort of truce on this issue. Could you really knock it off?
Yeah, truce until KJA gets a final word in. But then you broke that ceasefire and started arguing absurdness, and I'm countering it. And you -really do- see what you want to see. It's so damn amazing how much you'll twist and turn anything that favors Sidious and you'll turn a blind eye to the evidence supporting others. Your level of personal bias is mind-blowing in it's entirety. I wrote my Ten Commandments of Fanboys just after reading a couple of your posts. It is absolutely over the top how "into" your stance you are. Let's face it- we'll never convince you because you don't want to be convinced.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It was specified later on, I've typed out the text before.And no, Luke says "If Marka Ragnos is ressurected there's no telling what he might do. It will take all of our strength (Or forces, forgot which) to stop him."
Taken one way, you could think Luke's going there to fight the ressurected Ragnos and not take on the large cult. Especially when he's already talked about stopping Tavion from her course. And now, we now Ragnos is leading the cult, so it would be his forces they're attacking...particularly the army of cultists and Tavion.
It says strength, specifically. "It will take all of our strength to stop him." That has it's own sentence. Nowhere does it, or in its antecedent, reference forces. You can add that spin if you wish.
Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations.
See that? Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations. So which elements came directly from Lucas? Surely not the whole novelization. The ROTS novelization has Mace slashing Sidious' saber, it has Kit's head on the desk. Two facts that are blatantly contradicted in the movie.
The bottom line is the movie takes precedence, and the novelization contains much the author's own point of view that does not come from Mr. Lucas.