DE Sidious runs the gauntlet

1. Except it counts as much as any book. Proven it and you've yet to show me any link proving otherwise about how books take sole precedence. As far as LFL is concerned, the Sith Empire starts at 7000 BBY in the Second Great Schism, as they made Dan Wallace overwrite HIS OWN writings that it began in 25,000 BBY and nothing you post or say will change that. You seem to refuse to except that things from the source materials can change and that C-canon doesn't have much a level of precedence.

2. The NEC IS an omniscient narrarator. And apparently, anything of TOTJ is a recounting of history based on texts...in fact, at the start of GaoTS, Odan implies the Sith empire is over 100,000 years old and the narrarator even says history forgot the name of the planet! And 'a thousand years before so and so our story begins'...yeah, that's a reeeeal omniscient narrarator.

3. Proof that technology was invented by the Sith and not the Jedi from the Hundred year darkness. Proof Naga built that ship and Ragnos made that scepter...and I don't see any of those Sith draining worlds of energy and destroying fleets.

4. By an omniscient narrarator in later supplements that I've typed out before.

5. The earlier material was retconned. Deal with it.

6. Gee, DE said Palp had 'died before', later retconned he was lying-in a 'compilation', had him returning to life, KJA had the Maw Installation...later retconned in the NEC...

7. Maybe you missed where it said 'Palpatine is the only Sith who was strong enough to unbalance the force per existence?' Legacy has Sith returning...how many years after he died? Exar Kun's spirit was still around, Lumiya...

8. Oh, gee...KOTOR has red lightsabers, Darths, major anachronisms with the technology, Mandalorian uprisings, Sith returning...all of which retconned earlier material. CW's ENTIRE depiction of Palpatine's kidnapping...there's a damn good explanation that you just efuse to accept: Things change in Star Wars and the fans rarely get much a say in it. OH, and by the way: the authors and writers aren't non existant authority. And also, Dan wrote in the NEw Essential Character guide that the sith Empire was 25,000 years old and according to him, LFL had HIM change it, along with the schisms due to discrepancies with, survey says...Legions of Lettow and Xendor

Go away.

I thought we already nailed this one?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Except it counts as much as any book. Proven it and you've yet to show me any link proving otherwise about how books take sole precedence. As far as LFL is concerned, the Sith Empire starts at 7000 BBY in the Second Great Schism, as they made Dan Wallace overwrite HIS OWN writings that it began in 25,000 BBY and nothing you post or say will change that. You seem to refuse to except that things from the source materials can change and that C-canon doesn't have much a level of precedence.

His own writings ? He did overwrite Andersons writings (GAotS #0) and the storyline of the sourcebooks I listed as well as the articles in another essential guide (which is the same level of canon).

2. The NEC IS an omniscient narrarator.

No. It is not. It's clearly stated that the informations shown in the NEC are gathered in 36 BBY by persons in universe and those aren't omnicient. Hell...they even acknowledge possible errors.

And apparently, anything of TOTJ is a recounting of history based on texts...in fact, at the start of GaoTS, Odan implies the Sith empire is over 100,000 years old and the narrarator even says history forgot the name of the planet! And 'a thousand years before so and so our story begins'...yeah, that's a reeeeal omniscient narrarator.

It's nice how somebody here apparently is completely unable to read.

Odan is talking about a holocron that "contains the history of a 100,000 years" - where is he talking about the Sith Empire ? Nowhere. We know that the Jedi Order was founded 25,000 years BBY since ANH was released because Kenobi has the "for thousand generations the Jedi Knights..." line.

And yes...the history is based on sources that are coming from the same era. What do you think gives you a more accurate description of a time period: A source from said time period or a historian analyzing said time period 5,000 years later ?

3. Proof that technology was invented by the Sith and not the Jedi from the Hundred year darkness. Proof Naga built that ship and Ragnos made that scepter...and I don't see any of those Sith draining worlds of energy and destroying fleets.

Lmao. So suddenly the Dark Jedi used Sith alchemy before even finding the Sith. Then they kept the entire technology at the very same level for at least 2,000 years while being busy conquering planets. Miracously they inherited everything from their ancestors (like the amulets everybody seems to were in GAotS; their Sith swords and so on). Sadow did inherit his ship from somebody else...Ragnos found his sceptre somewhere on the ground - it was thrown away by somebody who didn't like the weapon. Sounds totally logical to me...not...

And oh...wait...a minor force user was able to drain the force from planets with Ragnos' sceptre. But Ragnos himself can't do that ? Sadow's (or Sadow himself) was able to create artificial solar flares (and he used them to destroy ship) or cause supernovas. But of course they can't destroy fleets with that stuff.

Yeah...I see...You make nearly as much sense as an inflatable dartboard.

4. By an omniscient narrarator in later supplements that I've typed out before.

What omniscient narrator ? Where ?

5. The earlier material was retconned. Deal with it.

Retconned while contradicting every other source by less accurate "in universe" sources. Oh yes. So...If I say that there never was a nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima I must be right because I retcon the earlier material, right ? I can hear the smoke detectors in hell ringing...

6. Gee, DE said Palp had 'died before', later retconned he was lying-in a 'compilation', had him returning to life, KJA had the Maw Installation...later retconned in the NEC...

Funny.
Sidious himself said that he had died before and it wasn't stated by the narrator. The Maw installation was retconned ? You mean (in universe): The official historians of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances deny the existance of an imperial think-tank that developed superweapons and was turned into Shelter / a Jedi facility (both secret). Wow...I don't see that happening in the real world. I'm pretty sure you can find the location of every CIA base and it's founding date in the official (public) CIA databank, right ?

7. Maybe you missed where it said 'Palpatine is the only Sith who was strong enough to unbalance the force per existence?' Legacy has Sith returning...how many years after he died? Exar Kun's spirit was still around, Lumiya...

Again: What does that say about Sidious power ? You did notice that the general existance of any Sith unbalances the force per definitionem since the light side equals balance ? Want to contradict Lucas himself now ?

8. Oh, gee...KOTOR has red lightsabers, Darths, major anachronisms with the technology, Mandalorian uprisings, Sith returning...all of which retconned earlier material.

Where are the discrepencies here ?
Red lightsabers ? Does any source say when they were invented. In case you didn't notice: Kun and Ulic used knowledge from the ancient Sith only which didn't even use lightsabers.
Darths ? When was it ever stated were the name comes from ? Bane ? He also could have taken it from an earlier time (Revans for example).
Mandalorian uprisings ? Where is the contradiction ?
Sith returning ? Huh ? I didn't see any living ancient Sith in KotoR...

CW's ENTIRE depiction of Palpatine's kidnapping...there's a damn good explanation that you just efuse to accept: Things change in Star Wars and the fans rarely get much a say in it.

Wow. Great. So apparently LFL can't handle the timeline but their word - even if self contradicting - is absolute infallible canon ? Even if said word is put into an in universe source that acknowledges errors itself ?

OH, and by the way: the authors and writers aren't non existant authority. And also, Dan wrote in the NEw Essential Character guide that the sith Empire was 25,000 years old and according to him, LFL had HIM change it, along with the schisms due to discrepancies with, survey says...Legions of Lettow and Xendor

Nice self-ownage there. So the authors and writers have absolute authority (and their opinion is canon) but then they have to write what other people tell them ?

And again you are ignoring the design of the NEC. It's an historical essay written by official goverment historians in 36 ABY. Do you know the sentence "History is written by the victors" ? So you estimate that a group of historians payed by a government will give you an accurate history essay including all nice little defeats and all hidden facilities of said goverment.

Wait...Can it be that "and then we got f*cked from the inside by the manipulative b*tch of a minor Sith Lord that even the green muppet incarnation of incompetence Master Yoda couldn't stop" sounds less brilliant then "With his genious in the art of the deception and manipulation the Greatest Sith Lord in History managed to take over our beloved Republic and he was so powerful that even the bravest and most powerful Jedi of all times, Master Yoda himself, couldn't stop him" ? Something makes me thing that this is the SW equivalent of the Donation of Constantine.

Maybe that will shut him up.

I thought we were getting somewhere when we had that email, but now it's back to square one.

LOL

Sometimes they just don't get it.

Thanks to you I'm never bringing a laptop to class again.

I'll just say three things:
1. Proof source materials can't be overwritten, please. It's happened before
2. Proof the NEC is a 'partisan document', because you have one Message board user's theory on it.
3. If you've been ignoring what I'm saying: The company has total authority. The authors come second and pretty much anything can be overwritten

Oh, and: Got an email from Anderson's staff, they said they'll pass on my letter to Kevin.

If you cant get a scan of it you could always forward it to me.

Ahhhh so you want us to prove a negative. Way to debate Lightsnake.

Well, it seems the Chronology is indeed debunked a bit by the author himself. I'm currently waiting for KJA's word on the subject

lol

My apologies, Nai, you were absolutely correct on the chronology. However, Dan did clarify that yes, there were retcons made and the chronology counts as much on a book, and LFL themselves decide retcons. He also said-here- anything would depend on who's writing the story, so apparently there isn't anything established, it could easily be between Sidious and Marka. I'm currently attempting to get KJA's thoughts

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll just say three things:
1. Proof source materials can't be overwritten, please. It's happened before

First you're asking to proof a negative: Logical fallacy.
Second: You're ignoring the topic. Ignoratio elenchi. Next logical fallacy.
Third: I've already said that source material can be overwritten but only by a source with higher authority which takes me to:

2. Proof the NEC is a 'partisan document', because you have one Message board user's theory on it.

Would you please take your NEC and read it ? It's perfectly clear that it is written from an in-universe perspective by Voren Na'al, Archivist Emeritus of the Historical Council, Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. So anything you can find in the book is just the personal conclusions, findings and opinions of a single person.

That's like saying Obi-Wan must be the uber-Jedi in the PT because according to Anakin he's "as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu". Do you see the point now ?

3. If you've been ignoring what I'm saying: The company has total authority. The authors come second and pretty much anything can be overwritten

Obviously the company made a glaring mistake with the chronology since it contradicts every other source without any reason. And the authors can state their opinion like they want - it still doesn't become canon automatically because they have written some stuff.

Oh, and: Got an email from Anderson's staff, they said they'll pass on my letter to Kevin.

Oh...what letter would that be ? And: Somebody wants to take bets what the (faked) reply (stored at some non-public place) will look like ?

touche

Originally posted by Lightsnake
My apologies, Nai, you were absolutely correct on the chronology. However, Dan did clarify that yes, there were retcons made and the chronology counts as much on a book, and LFL themselves decide retcons. He also said-here- anything would depend on who's writing the story, so apparently there isn't anything established, it could easily be between Sidious and Marka. I'm currently attempting to get KJA's thoughts

You can just ignore my last post regarding to that matter in this case. Had to eat something while writing the reply...

You know, about the letter: Someone else posted their email and Dan clarified on his post here we have corresponded. Ask Janus about the subject, you'll believe him

And quoth Dan: Only LFL can retcon something and they do it through the authors. He said, when he retconned the Sith Empire's date of birth, it was from the material they gave him

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You know, about the letter: Someone else posted their email and Dan clarified on his post here we have corresponded. Ask Janus about the subject, you'll believe him

err ? I'm not getting the point here ? You're talking about Dan's quote that Sidious took that title from Ragnos ?

And quoth Dan: Only LFL can retcon something and they do it through the authors. He said, when he retconned the Sith Empire's date of birth, it was from the material they gave him

I know that. The point is that this was - probably - done to keep the relation between the Legions of Lettow and the Sith. The problem is:

- Lucas himself (first drafts of SW) thought that Jedi and Sith developed basically from the same time period on out of the "Bindu" and said "Legions of Lettow"
- because of the ANH quote by Obi-Wan ("thousand generations"😉 Anderson moved the Legions of Lettow and the beginning of the Jedi to roughly 25,000 BBY

And now I don't understand the retcon. Xendor and the Legions of Lettow are just mentioned in the Han Solo Trilogy without any real dates given but it was said that Xendor was the first Dark Jedi. And because of that the Legions of Lettow must be the Dark Jedi involved in the First Great Shism which must have happened 25,000 years BBY because Jedi and Sith developed in a parallel time frame.

For the Sidious vs Ragnos topic:
I don't think they are compareable. By standarts of "Bane's" Sith Order - the organisation hidden in the shadows Sidious is the most powerful (especially his DE version). Measured by the standarts of the ancient Sith Order - the original - which preferred fights over deception he would get crushed because he's operating under an entire different philosophy.

Now we are putting them up in a fighting situation and even if assuming that they pocess roughly equal force powers (which I would not accept because what we have seen of people vastly inferior to Ragnos) Marka would still win a fight because that is his speciality.