I am honestly lost as to the importance of determining who is strictly faster than who in this fight. I think both have sufficiently proven they are quick enough to prevent a speedblitz from determining the outcome of this fight (SBP hitting 3 Flashes multiple times at once and numerous examples of Surfer responding/thinking in bare fractions of a second). Add to the fact that both of them have been seriously challenged/hit by beings who demonstrated little if any superspeed in the fight and the speed issue is in my mind nearly pointless.
As to the possibility of Surfer using his transmutation power on SBP, I see a few problems with this. I am not aware of the Surfer using this ability when engaged in heated combat with a powerful character (I'm not 100% certain on this point so please correct me if I'm wrong). Which leads me to believe that it may take a level of concentration he cannot devote to that task in a fight. Also there are several high-end matter manipulators in DC and they have not attempted to use that attack against SPB. Which you could attribute to him either having some type of resistance to that or bad writing.
Then there is red sunlight and kryptonite. Assuming that the Surfer's cosmic awareness will work in a neutral universe, I have serious doubts how effective it would be against SPB. We do not have concrete proof in my mind that either could seriously hurt him. When the the Flashes tried to trap him under a red sun, we do not know if the suit he created was meant to counter the effects of the red sun or to simply increase his power so he could break free of his prison (iirc in Crisis on Infinite Earths SBP wasn't vulnerable to red sunlight anyway). And given his now apparent immunity to magic, I'm now sure how effective kryptonite would be against him.
So that leaves the "standard" punch/energy blast type of fight. Now his experience and variety of powers may win the Surfer a few victories, but I think SBP would win a majority. Simply put the Surfer has had trouble with characters far physically weaker than SBP. The kid tosses around planets and punches through dimensional barriers for crying out loud. As much as I like the Surfer I see him having a hard time beating SBP.
Originally posted by TheKahn
As to the possibility of Surfer using his transmutation power on SBP, I see a few problems with this. I am not aware of the Surfer using this ability when engaged in heated combat with a powerful character (I'm not 100% certain on this point so please correct me if I'm wrong). Which leads me to believe that it may take a level of concentration he cannot devote to that task in a fight. Also there are several high-end matter manipulators in DC and they have not attempted to use that attack against SPB. Which you could attribute to him either having some type of resistance to that or bad writing.
wow, that's a GREAT point!! i wonder where have i heard THAT point raised before . . . 😗
good post all 'round, k. couldn't have said it better. 😉
I'm not sure who this Superboy Prime is. I keep thinking of pre-crisis Superboy, one of those super-incarnations who pulls planets around by giant chains (giant chains...gotta love that). As much as I love Surfer, I see him having a very hard time against this kind of Superperson. Then again, given Surfer's versatility...
I see this going either way, largely because, from where I sit, there are just so many factors (known and unknown) to consider.
IIRC, in Cosmic Powers Unlimited (#3 or #4,when their still looking for Ganymede), the Surfer took control of Jack of Hearts' patented Zero energy causing him to convulse and writhe in pain. He did it with just a wave of his hand with the ominous words "just a sample."
He would do the same to Superboy Punk.
And like i said earlier, the Anti-Monitor armor that process yellow sunlight for him would stuck out like a neon sign for someone who is entune with the energies of the Cosmos. The Surfer could steal the energies that armor is producing or he could transform it to something that would drain SBP instead.
Of course not that he requires the armor to drain him.
Or what the heck, just blast and go intangible.
Originally posted by Templares
The keyword here is that [B]for SBP it took years for him to escape even though he was just gone by several hours in our time. In addition, his stay in the red sun compelled him to create his armor which means the environment somehow contradicts the previous notion of him being immune to red sunlight.On a different note, where the heck was he imprisoned? In another Earth? [/B]
Once again, they trapped him in whatever the speed force was. We don't know if SS could survive that himself or fare any better.
We're going into too many possible details. The simple truth. SBP is stronger, faster, and clearly ridiculously invulnerable.
Unless SS can start moving planets at a speed where they appear to materialize around the universe, there is nothing more to debate.
Off with SS head! 😄
Connor died due to DC losing a legal battle with the families of the creators of Superman. And thats no excuse to suddenly multiply his strength by a thousand. His S shield glowed brightest before he died.......
And Avy, i am not a Superman hater. I am one who hates those with jobber auras, which Superman and his family, as well as Wolverine, Deathstroke, Cap America, Thanos as well as others have at glowing, tangible levels.
Superman earns my ire because of this. Not just because he's Superman. Thats my beef.
And everybody keeps raving about SBP's PC power levels.....If he has the strengths, i'd figure the deathly keen weakness to k-nite was around as well. And i said the fastest HERO in comics, not character.
And since when does Flash have no top speed??
I thought if he went far enough past lightspeed, he'd be lost to the speedforce. Has this limit changed??
And since Surfer flies using PC, which is the ambient energy of the universe, it can be theorized that he has no top speed.
It all depends on how fast he can convert it to fuel, which shouldn't be too hard for a master energy manipulator like Norrin.......
And Post crisis k-nite wouldn't be the kind that Surfer would make if he scanned SBP. He'd make whatever variety he's vulnerable to, if he is in fact vulnerable to it.
Originally posted by MiderThe Speedforce is the sum of all kinetic energy.
i would hope that flash can go faster then norrin i mean being sucked into the speed force just means you couldnt handle your speed isnt it? cant you eventually learn to handle it and go faster im asking this not stating it.
ok ok ok....this is teetering perilously close to edge of insanity now.....i guess we'll have to wait for the OYL or maybe the *52 explantion as to why SBP needed the armor in the first place, but I understand it to be that he just has it as a contingency plan just in case anyone tried to use that trick on him again, also he is not powered by solar energy it just makes him more powerful, so SS could drain all he wants, he'll only take what SBP has absorbed since he punched his way into reg. DC continuity...plus at no time DC has it ever been shown or stated that he was vulnerable to anything, cuz the same night he got his powers was the same night he met superman(E-1..aka PC) then next appearance was in COIE to tell everyone that his earth was destroyed. so we didnt get to find out what he was affected by or if.
now...even if we wanted to go out on a limb and presume that he had the typical superman weaknesses, we all saw what happened when bruce broke out the k-nite on Kal-L right? no effect.. we saw black adam bash him with magic. no effect.. so we can say even if he has that bane it's limited to k-nite, magic and red solar energy from his earth, which he's not on...so there goes that out the window.
sure SS has turned bullets into flowers b4 but i dont think Matter manip. will work on dude as his molecules are likley too invulnerable. and you know what? him busting out of the speed force is the illest barrier breaking feat IMO, cuz just like the Phantom Zone should have been its not a tangible object,and he literally punched his way out anyway.. and not even the speedsters themselves have managed to truly master the SF..Max Mercury nearly got lost in it.....Savitar got lost in it...Johnny Quick got lost in it....even barry allen got lost in it once...
and the most important thing is however they had him trapped in there, im sure they just we'rent sitting around and twiddling thier thumbs and waiting for him to do something im sure they were fighting, to make matters worse the dude came out bigger, bulkier, and visibly older than he went in, so you just f ****ing know that means even more power plus...oh yeah i forgot...THIS IS PRE-CRISIS LVL POWERS WE'RE TALKING HERE!!!!!!!!!! Arrrrggghhhhh!!! are you f ****ing ppl insane why is this discussion about who's faster and all that bullshit still continuing..
oh and for someone who was confused earlier pre-crisis is just a term of endearment for super strong characters that were depowered after COIE, some were done on purpose and the rest didnt have good or best selling books at that time so thier depowering was more subtle as they werent as popular..for example back in the PC days capt. marvel could do roughly the same things supes could do on roughly the same lvls. as thier was a different style of writing back then