Science and God

Originally posted by Evil Dead
wow......

you base your argument on one celestial body where chemicals come together to allow life to form and live, and disregard the other hundred or so celestial bodies that we know of and about where it did not?

Here.......9 planets alone in our solar system, not counting the many, many more moons.

Mercury ---- didn't happen
Venus -----didn't happen
Earth ---- happened
Mars ----didn't happen
Jupiter ---- didn't happen
Saturn ----- didn't happen
Uranus ----- didn't happen
Neptune ---- didn't happen
Pluto ---- didn't happen

with just those primary celestial bodies........your hypothesis holds only 11% true..........much smaller if we were to factor in the what, the 137 known moons........ all contain mixtures of gases if in the right combination can allow for life, all have mass...if great enough can retain these gases to form an atmosphere........

so......1 out of 144 celestial bodies in our solar system alone..........that's less than 1%.......yeah, valid argument buddy. I guess if I throw 144 dice, it is devine intervention that causes one of them to land on the number five........not pure chance and probability. And we're only talking about our solar system.......not even getting into the infinite solar sytems throughout the rest of the universe...

* yet we are placed in a planet that can nurture life... there is a reason for that... and it's not accidental... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* yet we are placed in a planet that can nurture life... there is a reason for that... and it's not accidental... 😉

Correction, we believe there is a reason it has never been proven that there is one.

Originally posted by peejayd
* and because it is edited and revised, you just tend to badmouth it? nice tactic... since you think technology is great, why not use it to find the truth of the "edited and revised"? why not search for the original manuscript... it might gain you self-respect, rather than concurring stupid ideas... 😉

It's official - you're ignorant. You don't even question the validity of the book you are basing your entire lifestyle and belief system around. t's cute though that you poo-poo science, which is the cumulated efforts of people who made the vehicles you ride in, the refridgerator that keeps your food cold, the medicines you take, the computer you use.

Hey, I have an idea... why don't you ask God to provide entertainment and bash your computer in with your Bible? Have God provide the electricity in your house. Hey, next time you get hurt, just pray and don't put anything on it. Yeah, faith > science every time.

* because when it comes to the creation, Big Bang is the best theory they can think of... face it, dude... science can't explain it... better yet, what's YOUR theory of the creation? 😕

... You don't get it, do you? Science isn't trying to make any absolute claims- it works with what information we have. Science says that because of microwaves and other phenomena in space, it's possible that space is expanding, and has always done so, perhaps starting from a single cluster of matter and energy in the beginning. You have a two thousand year old edited, revised, and retranslated book that claims God made it in six days. Who's being more foolish here? Oh, that would be you.

* ignorance will be manifested when someone argued and professed it was not the centerpiece of all science... if it's not the centerpiece, why argue? hurts your scientific pride? 😛

Lovely misdirection. But unfortunately, you can't attack my reason. Probably because you aren't used to thinking for yourself.

* and never will i do that... that's not faith, that's stupidity... believing in God does not tell you to kill someone or kill yourself... give Bible readers some rationality... you're too one-sided... 😉

You missed the point- blind faith blinds you. That's why it's blind faith. You can't see reason and other viewpoints other than what you're spoonfed. That's blind faith. YOU have blind faith. And you prove it post after post.

* good luck... 😆

...Says the person benefitting from science at every turn. Why aren't you out in the wild living on the earth with no science to help you and reading your bible while God protects you? Don't you have enough faith that you can live without science-made things if God is so great? Or are you a hypocrite and a fool? I suspect the latter.

* and you do? i just said it was a theory... it can never be a fact because you will never be able to explain the creation scientifically... if you can, then prove it... if you step on the Big Bang area, wow nice one! you are NOT in the centerpiece of all science... 😆

You aren't even making sense. Fool.

* yet we are placed in a planet that can nurture life... there is a reason for that... and it's not accidental...

Yes, because if I drew thirteen cards from two decks, and then sat there and said "Wow, there's no way I could have drawn these cards randomly. They MUST have been made to be this way." That'd be the answer, huh?

um, we live soly because our planet can nurture life........

out of 144 chances in our solar system alone.....our planet is the one that can nurture life....... that's 1 out of 144 chances.........I refer back to my dice analogy. If you believe god made this planet, all elements contained therein to support life..............why did it take him 144 tries to get the combination right? Doesn't sound too supreme if you ask me.......looks like he could do it once. If your next argument is that he only intended to do it once, it is moot as the same elements that exist here that allows for life exist on all of the other celestial bodies......in different random combinations......if god only wanted life here, made those elements to support it........they would not exist on other planets/moons.

now if you somehow show that humans were here on Earth.......and the elements that allow for life changed to do so around humans, to support human life..........then you sir have a valid argument for god. Then you are left with the problem of explaining why life exists on the planet that has nothing to do with human survival......some even highly toxic.....causing death........the exact opposite of the very purpose your god would have created it for, the survival of human life.

sorry.....you lose. If this was 400 a.d. and all we knew about was the Earth, your statement may hold validity in the face of ignorance about the rest of our universe.......but it's not. We do know about a small percentage of our universe, it directly contradicts your statements. We know what allows for life on Earth......and find it everywhere in different combinations throughout our solar system. Just imagine if we were to know of our entire galaxy.......... that would put god's success rate down considerably below his current 0.01 batting average.......and that's assuming we were to find several more life sustaining planets.

ps. science does not rule out the possibility of a greater intelligence at work............it does however rule out the god of Christianity/Judiism/Islam..

It does so by ruling out the creation myths, etc. attributed to "it" which define "it".........

most men of science, myself included, fully believe in a greater intelligence at work. Everything starts from something........it's just that we aren't egocentric enough to pretend we can understand this "intelligence" or "god"........ we can only attempt to explain the processes through which the universe works today, regardless of how it came to be.

you brought up a valid point about the big bang theory earlier. Where did the first energy come from that facillitated the big bang? Notice scientists never claim to know..........when we don't know something we simply say, "I dunno......I can only tell you what happened afterward as a result of it"........we don't just make stuff up out of our ass and say, "um....some invisible guy made it.....and he's watching me right now.......and he's judging me......".........

Originally posted by Evil Dead
you brought up a valid point about the big bang theory earlier. Where did the first energy come from that facillitated the big bang? Notice scientists never claim to know

My understanding is: the universe arose from a quantum fluctuation in a larger/higher space, not entirely unlike how virtual particles arise from quantum flcutuations in our space. Supposedly, that higher space is a "false vacuum" a symmetrical but inherently unstable condition which seeks stability through asymmetry...kinda like a pencil, viewed from above, balanced on its point. The pencil falling over = Big Bang.

At least, this is what I'm able to make of it.

And yes, this is currently theory. But it is a theory which, hypothetically, can be tested for, given equipment which can generate energies far beyond our current capability.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
It's official - you're ignorant. You don't even question the validity of the book you are basing your entire lifestyle and belief system around. t's cute though that you poo-poo science, which is the cumulated efforts of people who made the vehicles you ride in, the refridgerator that keeps your food cold, the medicines you take, the computer you use.

* i'm not berating science, mr.hater... there are areas of science that coincides with the Bible... but sadly, some areas does not coincide, worse, they contradict the Bible... i'm not ignorant, you're just a hater... 😉

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Hey, I have an idea... why don't you ask God to provide entertainment and bash your computer in with your Bible? Have God provide the electricity in your house. Hey, next time you get hurt, just pray and don't put anything on it. Yeah, faith > science every time.

* yet a simple stroke, a blood clot in your brain can kill an unprepared person in just minutes... science > faith all the way... 😕

Originally posted by Janus Marius
... You don't get it, do you? Science isn't trying to make any absolute claims- it works with what information we have. Science says that because of microwaves and other phenomena in space, it's possible that space is expanding, and has always done so, perhaps starting from a single cluster of matter and energy in the beginning. You have a two thousand year old edited, revised, and retranslated book that claims God made it in six days. Who's being more foolish here? Oh, that would be you.

* you don't get it... the way you put science to that pedestal is ridiculous... you don't even sound so sure in your scientific statements... 😕

* a hater like you won't understand that the creation in the Bible in 6 days was not a 24-hour day... now, it's official - you are really ignorant of the Bible you are badmouthing the whole time... 😉

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Lovely misdirection. But unfortunately, you can't attack my reason. Probably because you aren't used to thinking for yourself.

* my argument is valid... if it's not the centerpiece of all science, why care to argue? i'm still convinced, it's your scientific pride... 😛

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You missed the point- blind faith blinds you. That's why it's blind faith. You can't see reason and other viewpoints other than what you're spoonfed. That's blind faith. YOU have blind faith. And you prove it post after post.

* nope... you proved to be nothing more than a hater who does not even know how to raise a sound and valid argument... the way i see it, you always attack the person, not his argument... yes, and did i say you're a hater? 😉

Originally posted by Janus Marius
...Says the person benefitting from science at every turn. Why aren't you out in the wild living on the earth with no science to help you and reading your bible while God protects you? Don't you have enough faith that you can live without science-made things if God is so great? Or are you a hypocrite and a fool? I suspect the latter.

* who made you, your parents? who made you parents? your parents' parents... and so on... who made the very first human? care to answer what science taught you? you really are blinded by false science... 😉

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You aren't even making sense. Fool.

* and you can't scientifically explain the creation... plain and simple... 😉

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes, because if I drew thirteen cards from two decks, and then sat there and said "Wow, there's no way I could have drawn these cards randomly. They MUST have been made to be this way." That'd be the answer, huh?

* and everything was an accident? the environment? the people? the animals? all accident? gee-weez... comparing the creation to a deck of cards was very clever of you... 😆

Originally posted by Mindship
My understanding is: the universe arose from a quantum fluctuation in a larger/higher space, not entirely unlike how virtual particles arise from quantum flcutuations in our space. Supposedly, that higher space is a "false vacuum" a symmetrical but inherently unstable condition which seeks stability through asymmetry...kinda like a pencil, viewed from above, balanced on its point. The pencil falling over = Big Bang.

At least, this is what I'm able to make of it.

And yes, this is currently theory. But it is a theory which, hypothetically, can be tested for, given equipment which can generate energies far beyond our current capability.

Interesting theory... How dose a false vacuum differ from a true vacuum?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Interesting theory... How dose a false vacuum differ from a true vacuum?

I was just about to ask that, is it a vacuum not occupied by celestial bodies?

Originally posted by Mindship
1. Can Science, theoretically, be used to prove the existence of God?

Well, this is not exactly scientific, nor is it really theoratical, but this video proves God excists.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...265716&pl=true

SURELY THIS CAN'T BE COINCIDENCE???

If you don't feel like watching the video, just pick up a banana and hold it in your hand, and you will see the light. I'm already totally converted.

Anyway, I'm off to church, ciao

Originally posted by Bierbommetje
Well, this is not exactly scientific, nor is it really theoratical, but this video proves God excists.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...265716&pl=true

SURELY THIS CAN'T BE COINCIDENCE???

If you don't feel like watching the video, just pick up a banana and hold it in your hand, and you will see the light. I'm already totally converted.

Anyway, I'm off to church, ciao

It doesn't work but I think I know what video it is.

Originally posted by Bierbommetje
Well, this is not exactly scientific, nor is it really theoratical, but this video proves God excists.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...265716&pl=true

SURELY THIS CAN'T BE COINCIDENCE???

If you don't feel like watching the video, just pick up a banana and hold it in your hand, and you will see the light. I'm already totally converted.

Anyway, I'm off to church, ciao

This is what I get when I go to that link.

Does that prove god? 😱

BTW would you like to buy a bridge for $300?

Originally posted by peejayd
* yet we are placed in a planet that can nurture life... there is a reason for that... and it's not accidental... 😉

. science does not rule out the possibility of a greater intelligence at work............it does however rule out the god of Christianity/Judiism/Islam..

a hater like you won't understand that the creation in the Bible in 6 days was not a 24-hour day...

you are really ignorant of the Bible you are badmouthing the whole time...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Interesting theory... How dose a false vacuum differ from a true vacuum?

I could say "different energy states," but that's really meaningless. This is why I included the analogy of the pencil.

If you could balance a pencil upright on its point, and look straight down on it, you'd see the pencil as a circle, symmetrical in all directions. But, on its point, the pencil is highly unstable; conditions could change at any instant. When the pencil does fall over (ala Big Bang), symmetry is broken. But the pencil is in a much more stable condition, this being a true vacuum.

Of course, our spacetime could still be like a false vacuum to a "truer" vacuum. If so, there could be another Big Pencil ready to fall.

Originally posted by debbiejo
But, this is not the only solar system. Their are billions of galaxies with suns to sustain life.

* yet, is there any? 😕

Originally posted by debbiejo
That is only YOUR denominations teaching...It's all interpretation you know.

* then we should not interpret... just read... 😉

Originally posted by debbiejo
Don't assume that people that disagree with you do not know the bible.....Many of used to be Christians.

* nope, i'm not assuming... true Christians will never say things like that... 😉

How about this...

I dont want to read through all of this thread. I'm a biologist in training (i.e. I'm studying molecular biology in college) If someone wants to ask an intelligent question of me, I'd be happy to help answer it. Ecology/evolution is not by specialty, but I know my stuff. I find the biggest problem is that people misunderstadns science. Maybe I can help!

Oh, and the false vacuum theory is a good one, I read about it a few years back. Cool stuff!

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope, i'm not assuming... true Christians will never say things like that... 😉

Originally posted by Storm
The No True Scotsman Fallacy. The term Christian is used by a wide and disparate variety of people. This broad nature of the category is such that its use has very little meaning when it comes to defining a narrow property or behaviour. If there is no one accepted definition of the subject, then the definition must be understood in context, or defined in the initial argument for the discussion at hand.

Although the details of worship vary, is not the common thread of every Christian the belief that Christ (hence, "Christian"😉 is the savior/messiah of humankind?

Also, responding to prior posts: to doubt that life may exist elsewhere simply because it hasn't been found yet is, IMO, somewhat naive. On Earth, we now know that life is not the fragile phenomena we once thought. It is, instead, extremely tenacious, and given the slightest chance to thrive, will. To believe that Earth is the only Bio-Oasis out of the vastness of the universe strikes me as not wanting/unable to look beyond the tip of one's nose, either because inferential reasoning skills are lacking, or, more likely, there is fear of upsetting the applecart of another, incompatible belief system.

'Tis good ancient mariners did not conclude there is no land beyond the sea simply because it hadn't been found yet. With open minds and brave hearts, they wondered, they ventured, they found.

wow......both of these statements were made by the same person....

nope, i'm not assuming... true Christians will never say things like that...

a hater like you won't understand that the creation in the Bible in 6 days was not a 24-hour day... now, it's official - you are really ignorant of the Bible you are badmouthing the whole time...

I've read the bible a few times. Exactly where does it discuss "a day" being longer than 24 hours? Chapter/verse please.......

the book was written by man, standing on the earth. The definition of "day" is the amount of time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis once..........which is 24 hourse.........

* i'm not berating science, mr.hater... there are areas of science that coincides with the Bible... but sadly, some areas does not coincide, worse, they contradict the Bible... i'm not ignorant, you're just a hater...

so nothing is worse than contradicting the bible? You do realize that according to the creation myth in the bible, we are all clones...right? Adam was made first. God then took a rib of Adam to create Eve. Each cell within Adam contains the same DNA sequence, including his rib......which means Eve was created as an exact duplicate of Adam. ......a clone. That means that all humans alive today would have the same DNA sequence......we would all be identical clones. get your head out of your ass kid.

why do you keep using the word, "hater"? Are you a 12 year old girl, mistakenly believing she is in an aol chatroom? sorry sweetie....adults here........enough of the "hater", "roxorz" and "omg" crap.

ps. you still haven't replied to my last post that I called your bull shit out in.........

^ We need a clean up on isle 7, there's blood all over the place. 😆