Science and God

Started by debbiejo7 pages

yet, is there any?
How can you be sure there is not?

then we should not interpret... just read...
Everything you read is open to interpretation. That's why we have all the 100's of denominations all pointing their fingers at each other saying YOUR WRONG and WE'RE RIGHT......What should be done is looking not in the bible, but looking into how the bible came to be, and what were the circumstances at the time, what and are the similarities to earlier writings by other groups...Then go back to the bible and see it for what it is and what you can gleen from it...

My understanding is: the universe arose from a quantum fluctuation in a larger/higher space, not entirely unlike how virtual particles arise from quantum flcutuations in our space. Supposedly, that higher space is a "false vacuum" a symmetrical but inherently unstable condition which seeks stability through asymmetry...kinda like a pencil, viewed from above, balanced on its point. The pencil falling over = Big Bang

interesting......but further explanation please. I am by no means an expert on this subject. Please explain what you mean by larger/higher space. I understand what you are saying otherwise.......but it would all still come back to the very first spark of energy ever in existence in this universe or another which caused this universe........had to come about somehow. Perhaps that is what you are trying to explain to me......dumb it up for me a bit. I see no way in any scenerio energy could be spontaniously created.....I'm not one of those nutjobs quick to throw around the "g" word but I do believe there are things that humans could not possibly explain given our level of intelligence relevance to the processes of the entire universe or whatever larger space encompassing it.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
interesting......but further explanation please. I am by no means an expert on this subject. Please explain what you mean by larger/higher space. I understand what you are saying otherwise.......but it would all still come back to the very first spark of energy ever in existence in this universe or another which caused this universe........had to come about somehow. Perhaps that is what you are trying to explain to me......dumb it up for me a bit. I see no way in any scenerio energy could be spontaniously created.....I'm not one of those nutjobs quick to throw around the "g" word but I do believe there are things that humans could not possibly explain given our level of intelligence relevance to the processes of the entire universe or whatever larger space encompassing it.

I can help you out with one thought; consider the idea that there is no creation, everything has always existed, kind of like the oscillating universe. Now, the "larger/higher space" is something I would like to know more about.

everything always existing......I can't buy that. It makes no logical sense based soly on what we humans have observed in the past few millenia. That's not to say it's not true if given an oscillating universe theory or another akin to it which allows for larger universes to exist outside of this one.....it could have completely alien systems, laws and interactions between energy, matter and anti-matter. Thinking about that too long would just give you a head ache.

we view and experience time/space as linear.......makes it incredibly difficult to ever try to come to a rational explanation of something existing as circular. Then again.....our intelligence could be way down the meter in terms of all existence. Us attempting to explain this seemingly contradictory occurance to how we view/experience our universe would be like asking an ant to explain the laws of thermodynamics, complete with working models.........which is why I always go back to the last line of my last post in this thread......somethings we humans are just not capable of answering do to our intelligence and our place relevant to the rest of existence if this were to be true.

makes it incredibly difficult to ever try to come to a rational explanation of something existing as circular
But it could be true considering everything even here on earth is circular also......Everything seem to run in cycles.....seasons, biological, plants, births, solar system...all cyclical in nature. Things seem to go round and repeat.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
everything always existing......I can't buy that. It makes no logical sense based soly on what we humans have observed in the past few millenia. That's not to say it's not true if given an oscillating universe theory or another akin to it which allows for larger universes to exist outside of this one.....it could have completely alien systems, laws and interactions between energy, matter and anti-matter. Thinking about that too long would just give you a head ache.

we view and experience time/space as linear.......makes it incredibly difficult to ever try to come to a rational explanation of something existing as circular. Then again.....our intelligence could be way down the meter in terms of all existence. Us attempting to explain this seemingly contradictory occurance to how we view/experience our universe would be like asking an ant to explain the laws of thermodynamics, complete with working models.........which is why I always go back to the last line of my last post in this thread......somethings we humans are just not capable of answering do to our intelligence and our place relevant to the rest of existence if this were to be true.

I'm not talking about steady state. I'm talking about big bang going to big crunch on and on for ever into the past and into the future.

You're talking about dimensional things arent you?.......

Originally posted by debbiejo
You're talking about dimensional things arent you?.......

No, I'm talking about nothingness. 😱

"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."
-- Sir Arthur Eddington

A few things to address...
1. The idea that Something Always Was, as opposed to Something Coming Into Being.
Whatever the "ultimate ground of being" is (energy, consciousness, void, God, left-over potato salad, all/none of the above), it is by definition Infinite: infinite in all and any way. It has to be, because if it isn't, if there is something beyond it, than That Totality is what's infinite. Even if there is an infinite regression, then That is our Infinite Ground: infinite in space and time...which means no beginning. The advantage to this is that it fits perfectly with Occam's Razor: Something That Always Was is a simpler proposition than Something Coming Into Being, because we don't have to explain any creation.
2. Since we are 3-dimensional beings, it is impossible for us to visualize a "higher space." We can understand it mathematically, but not via a sensory metaphor, at least not w/o distortion in one or more dimensions.
For example: we can draw a cube (a 3D figure) on paper but with distortion in that 3rd dimension because the paper is a 2D surface (the 3rd dimension has been collapsed, so to speak). We can draw a 4D cube (a tesseract) on paper, but now we get distortion in 2 dimensions. We can even make a 3D model of a tesseract, but this still leaves us with distortion in 1 dimension. There's no way around it: the best we can do is make models with some measure of distortion. So when scientists try to understand higher spaces, they reason through metaphor, often scaling down a dimension or two.
3. A "false vacuum" (higher space) is thus best understood through metaphor. I refer to the Big Pencil falling down, going Boom, as one of my faves.

If you could balance a pencil upright on its point, and look straight down on it, you'd see the pencil as a circle, symmetrical in all directions. But, on its point, the pencil is highly unstable; conditions could change at any instant. When the pencil does fall over (ala Big Bang), symmetry is broken. But the pencil is in a much more stable condition, this being a true vacuum.

Sorry if I wasn't more clear. This is because 1) my own understanding of this stuff is hardly expert level; and 2) I'm in a rush at the moment. I also wanna address the Oscillating Universe idea, but in that thread.

Originally posted by Mindship
"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."
-- Sir Arthur Eddington

A few things to address...
1. The idea that Something Always Was, as opposed to Something Coming Into Being.
Whatever the "ultimate ground of being" is (energy, consciousness, void, God, left-over potato salad, all/none of the above), it is by definition Infinite: infinite in all and any way. It has to be, because if it isn't, if there is something beyond it, than That Totality is what's infinite. Even if there is an infinite regression, then That is our Infinite Ground: infinite in space and time...which means no beginning. The advantage to this is that it fits perfectly with Occam's Razor: Something That Always Was is a simpler proposition than Something Coming Into Being, because we don't have to explain any creation.
2. Since we are 3-dimensional beings, it is impossible for us to visualize a "higher space." We can understand it mathematically, but not via a sensory metaphor, at least not w/o distortion in one or more dimensions.
For example: we can draw a cube (a 3D figure) on paper but with distortion in that 3rd dimension because the paper is a 2D surface (the 3rd dimension has been collapsed, so to speak). We can draw a 4D cube (a tesseract) on paper, but now we get distortion in 2 dimensions. We can even make a 3D model of a tesseract, but this still leaves us with distortion in 1 dimension. There's no way around it: the best we can do is make models with some measure of distortion. So when scientists try to understand higher spaces, they reason through metaphor, often scaling down a dimension or two.
3. A "false vacuum" (higher space) is thus best understood through metaphor. I refer to the Big Pencil falling down, going Boom, as one of my faves.

Don't we exsit in a 4 dimensional world,this sounds like my theory.

Originally posted by Blue nocturne
Don't we exsit in a 4 dimensional world,this sounds like my theory.

According to String theory, there is between 10 and 14 dimensions.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
According to String theory, there is between 10 and 14 dimensions.

Like 4 wasn't hard enough. Sheesh.

How can anyone be sure when you're talking about dimensions anyway. There could even be dimensions within dimensions.... 🤨 📖

Originally posted by debbiejo
How can anyone be sure when you're talking about dimensions anyway. There could even be dimensions within dimensions.... 🤨 📖

Look it up... 😆

Physicist work with 4 dimensions, three spatial (left-right, up-down, back-forth) and time. String-theorists speculate that there may be some 7 extra tiny curled-up dimensions, which are so small they do not interact with ordinary matter at all.
Problem - string-theory is a hypothesis, it's not falsiable!

Big bang: The biggest problem for us, is understanding that TIME started with Big Bang. There is no BEFORE, hence no casual relations (cause always preceeds effect), because there is no time.
If we wait long enough the improbable will happen.
If we wait forever the impossible will happen.
You have to time...
Quantum-mechanics dictates, that you're allowed to violate energy-conservation laws (you may create energy from nothing), as long as you do it within a very short time-span. (the virtual particle pairs that are constanly jumping into existence and vanishing again in vacuum, and as far as I remember, the particles that carry the weak nuclear force).
You have no time before Big Bang...

So a quatum-mechanical fluctuation... 🙂) Big Bang.

Originally posted by The Omega
Physicist work with 4 dimensions, three spatial (left-right, up-down, back-forth) and time. String-theorists speculate that there may be some 7 extra tiny curled-up dimensions, which are so small they do not interact with ordinary matter at all.
Problem - string-theory is a hypothesis, it's not falsiable!

Big bang: The biggest problem for us, is understanding that TIME started with Big Bang. There is no BEFORE, hence no casual relations (cause always preceeds effect), because there is no time.
If we wait long enough the improbable will happen.
If we wait forever the impossible will happen.
You have to time...
Quantum-mechanics dictates, that you're allowed to violate energy-conservation laws (you may create energy from nothing), as long as you do it within a very short time-span. (the virtual particle pairs that are constanly jumping into existence and vanishing again in vacuum, and as far as I remember, the particles that carry the weak nuclear force).
You have no time before Big Bang...

So a quatum-mechanical fluctuation... 🙂) Big Bang.

But the energy-matter conservation law is broken in singularities.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I can help you out with one thought; consider the idea that there is no creation, everything has always existed, kind of like the oscillating universe. Now, the "larger/higher space" is something I would like to know more about.

Were on the same page I see. 😆

My theory is that GOD/Highest dimension breaks down into simpler froms forming lesser conscious and dimensions.

Sorry for double post.

Quantum fluctuations as fractals, universes within universes.

And if there is a God, then this whole fractal organization is just the hardware of infinity. The software is the Consciousness which transcends but includes it.

Is That aspect of God forever beyond Science?

Cool! 😎

Originally posted by debbiejo
Cool! 😎

😎 (fractal sunglasses)