Vitor made a name getting fluke win over Couture with a stoppage from cut... which was quickly rectified with Couture scoring a legitimate victory in the rubber match. Vitor wasn't beating bigger guys then him, the LHW division in UFC was too much and they beat him down to MW in secondary promotions... where he still lost to the big names he fought. Jones beat Machida, Shogun, Rampage, Rashad and Bader. Vitor lost to Liddell, Tito and Couture... and that was years ago. Jones has a better record, against better LHWs than Vitor, and unlike Vitor, Bones has been constantly fighting real competition and pushing himself, while Vitor has been fighting a half dead Rumble, and over the hill Sexyama (who shouldn't have been at MW to begin with) and Ace... oh wait, he actually fought some legit competition. He was gifted a shot at Anderson... and was embarrassed and knocked out in round one.
Unless Vitor has learned how to throw a devastating inside leg kick that punishes the Champs lead leg, then Jones is going to light Vitor up like a Christmas tree.
I was talking about when he became youngest ever UFC champion when he became HW champion at tender age of 17. He blast on the scene destroying everyone they put up against him despite being natural MW.
Vitor made a name getting fluke win over Couture with a stoppage from cut... which was quickly rectified with Couture scoring a legitimate victory in the rubber match.
Who are you to said it was fluke? In the words of Joe Rogan, if you aim to punch someone and it lands, it's not a lucky punch. As Vitor said, if the punch was just a little deeper, Randy would have been Koed instead.
Jones beat Machida, Shogun, Rampage, Rashad and Bader.
Vitor presents bigger threat than any of them imo. Bader is not top tier. Rampage has become one dimensional in his striking and not very explosive. Rashad can at least neutralise Jones wrestling but he has little to offer standing up. Shogun has weak TDD and is not on the level of Vitor in BJJ so he got destroyed by Jones on the ground, and he is also not as good a striker aside from his toughness. Machida is probably only one who is bigger threat because he has incredible strikign and TDD, but the problem is his BJJ isn;t so anmazing that he can easily protect ghuimnelf if it gets to the ground, and as good as his stirking is he lacks both a great chin and a lot of power (he gets his KOs from technical strikes) so while he is arguably better striker than Vitor he is not as dangerous.
Vitor lost to Liddell, Tito and Couture... and that was years ago.
he has improved by leaps and bounds in those years, and he is sitll very young and in his physical prime, just a lot more experienced. And those are some of the greatest LHWs of all time. He got blatantly robbed against Chuck and should have been 19-18, the fact that Chuck got a knockdown in last round swayed judges decisions imo. And to be honest Vitor outclassed Chuck in the stirking for the most pasrt, problem was Chuck just had such a good chin and could take everything Vitor had to give. He has one win against Couture as well, and as i said he has improved since those losses. Jones is completely different kind of wrestler to Couture and Tito btw. In fact most of Jones takedowns are Judo based and Vitor is black belt in Judo.
Jones has a better record, against better LHWs than Vitor,
Rashad is not better than Vitor. Neither were Rampage or Shogun when Jones fought them. Maybe Machida, but Vitor offers a very different set of skills and is arguably more dangerous.
and unlike Vitor, Bones has been constantly fighting real competition and pushing himself, while Vitor has been fighting a half dead Rumble, and over the hill Sexyama (who shouldn't have been at MW to begin with) and Ace... oh wait, he actually fought some legit competition. He was gifted a shot at Anderson... and was embarrassed and knocked out in round one.
Ace is still top competition btw.
And in his fight with Anderson he actually looked very good until the head kick. Like, he wasn't getting pulled into Anderson's game, looked very dangerous and was probably winning. Rematch could go either way imo.
Fact is, Vitor has by far best BJJ that Jones has ever faced. he will not be as vulnerable on his back. He is by far the quickest striker Jones has faced, and that speed may act as good counter to Jones reach. He is the most dangerous striker Jones will haved faced with probably the best kille rinstinct in MMA and tons of knouckout power, and if Vitor had him in the position that machida did he would have probably finished him. And he has BB in Judo, so Jones will not be able to ragdoll him like he did Shogun or Stephan Bonnar.
People are criminally underestimating Vitor Belfort. He is one of the greatest fighters of all time, and now in his prime. He has better chance than Dan Henderson probably.
Vitor was 19, not 17, when he won the heavyweight tournament. That wasn't even a class belt(like Jones won). It's sad that UFC doesn't host tournaments anymore though.
I get that you're playing devil's advocate, and the activity is welcome; however, really dude? You're comparing worse opponents to Jones and ignoring the fact that Jones has beaten better people than Vitor?
Machida's is a BJJ blackbelt btw. He just doesn't get put on his back very often because he has high level sumo skills. Vitor submitting lolAnthony Johnson doesn't give him the "best LHW BJJ" award, especially considering Vitor has been submitted by worse grapplers than Machida, Shogun, or Jones.
You wanna know who the only person to submit Machida was?
Jones.
Machida knocking out Bader.
I've been examining this and can't figure out what Bader's plan was. I thought he was trying a lunging jab followed by a cross, but his footwork is completely ****ed up for that. Why'd he step forward with his right leg past his left? Was it just a desperate attempt to get in?
Can anyone figure out wtf he was trying to do here?
Originally posted by StyleTime
Vitor was 19, not 17, when he won the heavyweight tournament. That wasn't even a class belt(like Jones won). It's sad that UFC doesn't host tournaments anymore though.
Still counts as a championship, and it does make him youngest ever champion. In a way, Vitor back then is like what Jones is today, until his first loss to Randy.
I get that you're playing devil's advocate, and the activity is welcome; however, really dude? You're comparing worse opponents to Jones and ignoring the fact that Jones has beaten better people than Vitor?
Prime Chuck Liddell would beat Jones IMO. Incredible defencive wrestling and striking, and incredible toughness. I don't think Jones would be able to take and keep Chuck down, and standing I think Chuck would eventually get the KO with his great striking, incredible power, and truly granite chin.
Only person Jones beat who might be better than Vitor is Machida imo. Shogun looked bad against Jones and has looked bad against others since. Likewise with Rampage. Maybe in their prime they were arguably as good as or better, but not when they fought Jones.
Machida's is a BJJ blackbelt btw.
Yeah I know, so is Shogun and Rashad. Out of everyone Jones has faced Shogun has best BJJ imo but even then he doesn;t have the grappling credentials that Vitor does.
He just doesn't get put on his back very often because he has high level sumo skills. Vitor submitting lolAnthony Johnson doesn't give him the "best LHW BJJ" award, especially considering Vitor has been submitted by worse grapplers than Machida, Shogun, or Jones.
I was speaking more to the fact that he has black belt under Carlson Gracie, is 4-2 in submission grappling where he has never been submitted, was 3rd place in ADCC absolute division with win over Ricardo Almeida.
He's onyl ever been submitted by Alistair Overeem, and I'll have to watch the fight to see if he got rocked from strikes first or plain submitted. Alistair Overeem was much bigger than Vitor anyway, has very good chokes and was winner of ADCC European Trials submission grappling tournament.
You wanna know who the only person to submit Machida was?Jones.
As you said, he spends little time on his back to his great TDD anyway. And in his fight with Tito he was very close to being submitted. When he got taken down by Jones he looked very immobile in all honesty.
Way I see it, Vitor is very well rounded and poses serious threat to Jones in a number of ways.
1. He has great technical boxing, and incredible hand speed, as well as serious KO power in both arms. So he has the tools to handle Jones reach (boxing disciplines of angles and footwork, distancing, and the speed to be the first to land) and he presents serious danger to knock him out.
2. Judo black belt. Jones uses a lot of Judo in his TDs so Vitor might be especially well suited to defend against them.
3. Incredible BJJ. Should help protect himself if he gets taken down, brought to a stand up, or even submit him.
Vitor was once what Jones is now, incredibly young champion, destroying the competition around him, extremely well rounded. If anything one of the only differences is that Vitor did the same to people bigger than he, and at HW, not like Jones who does it at LHW and to people who are smaller. And yes while the sport has grown and evolved so has Vitor, he was incredibly young back then and has remained relavent his entire career, and he is now physically, techbically and mentally in his prime. If you look at his losses over his career, they were all to people who were bigger than him, and all to greats, some of them close such as Tito Ortiz and Chuck Liddell. He was putting up great fight against Anderson and winning the standup until the KO. he has legendary, highlight reel win over Wanerlain DSilva, he finished Randy Couture in one round, destroyed Rich Franklin, destroyed the likes of Tank Abbot and other massive HWs in his first few fights. Even his losses against people like Sakaruba were more a problem with his mental game than anything else, nad he was basically a kid throughtout mosy of his career, well now he is a man, in his prime in all ways at the age of 35 and mentally game.
Stand up, Jones has no chance imo. He has good chance if he gets to take him down and keep him there, and Jones has probably the best GnP of all time so he is absolutely a threat in that position. But Vitor has better chance than people think. He is also training with Rashad so that might give him good insight into Jones stye.
WAR VITOR!!
Way I see it:
Shogun has no chance against Joens really. His standup has nothing to offer, he's slow and not technical enough to counter Jones reach, has poor TDD, a slight threat on ground with his BJJ but ultimately still has little to offer.
Rampage likewise has nothing to offer standing up, is harder to take down but whn he is down is much easier to finish.
Rashad has little to offer standing, he is good but not great and while he possesses great hand speed and power he's just not good enough, though he does possess the grappling to at least keep fight standing.
Machida stylistically has a lot to offer Jones standing, with his karate style and angles and footwork and distancing he has an answer to the reach of Jones, but is let down by his lack of iron chin and lack of KO power. TDD is truly great, largely because Machida not only has great balance and sumo base but is also so good at maintaining distance, if Jones can get him down he might have to stun him stirking first. However when it gets to the ground Machida doesn;t have a lot to offer Jones imo. So I think Machida has to fight perfect fight, which he can do, and out strike Jones and not egt taken down, but one mistake and he can get taken down or rocked and it's basically over imo against someone as dangerous as Jones with his GnP and chokes. Machida also always has opportunity to finish someone standing as wlel but I don't think Jones would be sloppy enough to leave the opening.
Dan henderson likewise is a very good striker, but more importanly has best combination of great KO power, and great chin, out of anyone here. So he weill always be threat standing just because of hiow tough he is, even a lot mroeso than Shogun. He is also an olympic level wrestler in greco Roman, the style Jones uses, so like Vitor he might be particualtly suited at defending against Jones' TDs. Problem is though that henderson as great as a wrestler as he is perfroms somewhat inconsistently in this regard so there is always a question of if he could egt taken down but if eh trains well he has the talent to avoid them imo. However I'm not sure if he has the cardio to remain competitive over 5 rounds, and there is good chance Jones kight somply pick him apart standing, and avoid getting caught by any bigpunches.
Little Nog. Best Jiu Jitsu out of anybody here easily, will be significant threat on ground. Some of the best striking for sure, best pure boxing probably and I think he is probably a good enoguh striker to outstrike Jonesd even with his reach.
Forrest Griffin. Absolutely nothing to offer Jones.
Chael Sonnen. Little to offer Jone sin most areas of game but there is remote, remote possibility that he could take him down and keep him there ala Anderson Silva.
I have already given assessement of Vitor.
So imo people with best chance against Jones in order are probably:
Vitor Belfort
Lyoto Machida
Little Nog
Dan Henderson
Rashad Evans
Chael Sonnen
Rampage
Shogun
Forrest Griffin
So he still has yet to face some of his toughest tests imo, and Machida will always be threat in rematch. Plus I think if people Like Daniel Cormier and Cain Velasquez ever decided to move down, they would dominate him weith their wrestling.
Calling it:
Matt Hmmill win by decision
Brian Stann win by finish
Demetrious Johnson win
Vitor Belfort win by first round finish
I have placed £10 on a cumulative bet involving all of this fights plus also george st peirre def. condit in decision, stefan struve winning, jon fitch def. silva in decision, kampmann def. hendricks in decision, and chael def forrest in decision, and if I win I will get returns of £89,000
I didn't see this for some reason.
Originally posted by batdude123
Close the distance, feint with a jab, then throw an overhand right.
I'm being a total armchair warrior, but it feels like he should have waited until he got closer to jab(or do a lunging jab). And switching his feet still looks silly to me. He could have gotten more rotation and probably ducked Machida's counter punch had he done it from orthodox.
But like I said, armchair warrior.
Originally posted by iheartchael
Still counts as a championship, and it does make him youngest ever champion. In a way, Vitor back then is like what Jones is today, until his first loss to Randy.Prime Chuck Liddell would beat Jones IMO. Incredible defencive wrestling and striking, and incredible toughness. I don't think Jones would be able to take and keep Chuck down, and standing I think Chuck would eventually get the KO with his great striking, incredible power, and truly granite chin.
Yeah I know, so is Shogun and Rashad. Out of everyone Jones has faced Shogun has best BJJ imo but even then he doesn;t have the grappling credentials that Vitor does. I was speaking more to the fact that he has black belt under Carlson Gracie, is 4-2 in submission grappling where he has never been submitted, was 3rd place in ADCC absolute division with win over Ricardo Almeida. He's onyl ever been submitted by Alistair Overeem, and I'll have to watch the fight to see if he got rocked from strikes first or plain submitted. Alistair Overeem was much bigger than Vitor anyway, has very good chokes and was winner of ADCC European Trials submission grappling tournament.
As you said, he spends little time on his back to his great TDD anyway. And in his fight with Tito he was very close to being submitted. When he got taken down by Jones he looked very immobile in all honesty.
Chuck vs Jones would be interesting, but Chuck has advantages that Vitor doesn't. Chuck beat Vitor anyway though.
As for the grappling, you know as well as I do that grappling for MMA and grappling for grappling only events isn't the exact same thing. Same as striking. There is literally nothing to suggest Vitor's overall grappling superiority in MMA compared to Machida.
I don't think Vitor will any be more mobile honestly.
My response isn't long because....well the truth will come out tonight. Suffice it to say, I think Jones will beat Vitor; however, I do agree with you on one thing:
Originally posted by iheartchael
1. He has great technical boxing, and incredible hand speed, as well as serious KO power in both arms.