Originally posted by StyleTime
Got to say, I was suprised by Belfort's near arm-bar in the first round.
lol yeh indeed.
Very interesting fight. First thing is, I'd like to think that the fight shows that I kind of knew what I was talking about regarding Vitor having the best BJJ out of anyone Jones has faced yet. He really was by far the most dangerous off of his back, and even though he did get cut quite early I think he was the best so far at minimising damage. But as far as the ground game is concerned, you couldn't really ask for much better than Vitor's performance.
What kind of bugged me about his performance was the standup. He just seemed so gun shy and couldn't seem to let his hands go. The kicks were ok but it's clearly Vitor's hands that are the real threat and for some reason he didn't seem to be able to loosen up. You'd think he might be worried about being taken down but given that he was perfectly happy pulling guard he really should have just let loose and gone for broke with his hands. Compare how he was here with how he was with Anderson. I know Jones has the reach but even then Anderson still had a slight reach advantage coupled with otherworldy timing and accuracy etc and Vitor had no problems going for it then. It's like, he was really hungry when he faced Anderson and he didn't quite have that same fire in his belly against Jones.
And honestly, in a way I still truly believe that Vitor had the skill and athleticism to beat Jones, but that there's still a major problem with his mental game, which I thought he'd started to get over by now. If you look throughout his entire career it's filled with performances, and losses, that were clearly the result of very bizarre apparent gameplans and poor decisions. He has the BJJ, striking and explosiveness to give Jones a good fight and possibly even win. The latter two were seemingly missing for some reason.
All that being said I think he looked the best losing to Jones out of all the other former champions imo. Showed better ability to survive the GnP, was a threat from his back, just a real shame about the stirking and tentativeness.
Also goes to show Styles how often getting submitted has little to do with Jiu-Jitsu, and is often set up by strikes or wrestling or GnP etc. like it was here. Same happened when he got submitted by Overeem btw, he had just been rocked by strikes and knocked down, and then got submitted. Interestingly, same thing with Machida when he got submitted by Jones as well.
Edit - Anyways, WAR Vitor and give him much respect, and remember that he, a large middleweight, basically fought a small heavyweight on relatively short notice and put up a good fight. Much respect Vitor.
Hmm weird I meant to post this yesterday but it didn't go through, but anyways the fight between mighty mouse and benavidez was freaking awesome and I have no respect for anyone who bood that fight. I said it a while ago on sherdog and I got a lot of criticism for it but I stand by it, and that is that mighty mouse is pound for pound the second best fighter in the world right now (after frankie edgar). His speed and footwork is just beautiful and the timing on those takedown and positional grappling was unbelievable.
Also, take it for what you will but apparently Vitor's hand was broken from the training camp which might explain why he wouldn't let them go. Also apparently Jones' arm popped slightly during the arm bar, and Vitor's first instinct was to loosen his grip a bit after hearing it pop.
Just curious srank what your thoughts on belfort are after watching the fight and taking into account the size disparity, that he took the fight on short notice, and the apparent hand injury? Taking all that into account, the fact that Jones is arguably the best fighter in the world right now, and that Vitor did extremely well at surviving the rounds and came extremely close to submitting him, I think Vitor deserves a lot of respect and credit.
If anything the fight showed where Jon Jones may be a little weak and that is his BJJ. I don't care that he gets a lot of submissions, he mostly gets them through wrestling or stunning his opponents with strikes/GnP, and he admitted in the press conference that it's the thing he worked on the least in his game. Man if you somehow merged Vitor and Lyoto into one fighter that would be the guy at LHW to finally beat him lol. Vitor's BJJ, Lyoto's TDD. Lyoto's footwork and striking defence and kicks, Vitor's speed, power and hands.
Gotta say though, at first glance it really does look pretty incredible the 5 fight streak of former champions Jones is on right now. However it becomes a lot less impressive when you examine it a little more closely. Out of the 5 opponents, four of them have MW frames (Vitor, Rashad, Lyoto, Shogun), while Jones has a HW frame. Two of them are definitely past their prime (Shogun, Rampage). Interesting that Shogun was the only one Jones truly destroyed, and he appears in both lists. He's still looked great in the other four, but there have been moments that showed he's human. He was losing in the striking to Machida and getting briefly picked apart, and lost the first round. If a fight between the two of them goes the distance, it could likely be a close decision. He didn't seem to be able to take Rashad down (GSP, Cruz and Mighty Mouse all have better TDs imo) and subsuequently was not able to finish him; without his GnP he may not be all that dangerous. His top posture didn't look great against Vitor and getting caught in the armbar showed deficiencies with his Jiu-Jitsu game.
The list looks really impressive when you simply look at the names of legends/champions (Rashad probably wouldn't quite qualify as a legend just yet lol), but when you look at the size disparity and the fact that some are past their prime, it's not quite as good.
I think if he bulks into his frame and moves up to HW, and then does the same thing to JDS, Cain Velasquez, Daniel Cormier, Brock Lesnar, Alistair Overeem, and Shane Carwin, that would be a LOT more impressive and then I think he will have finally start deserving some of the praise he gets.
As it stands, I don't think he's the greatest talent to ever fight in MMA. I think he's one of the best talents, but that the win streak against big names makes him seem more impressive than he actually is. I actually think that young BJ Penn is probably still the greatest talent we've ever seen in MMA. Truly legendary TDD, BJJ prodigy, and elite level MMA boxing, and a history of success at higher weight classes while dominating his own. I think that right now, Dominick Cruz, Mighty Mouse, and Frankie Edgar are of comparable levels of talent.
Originally posted by WARChaelSonnen!
Very interesting fight. First thing is, I'd like to think that the fight shows that I kind of knew what I was talking about regarding Vitor having the best BJJ out of anyone Jones has faced yet. He really was by far the most dangerous off of his back, and even though he did get cut quite early I think he was the best so far at minimising damage. But as far as the ground game is concerned, you couldn't really ask for much better than Vitor's performance. All that being said I think he looked the best losing to Jones out of all the other former champions imo. Showed better ability to survive the GnP, was a threat from his back, just a real shame about the stirking and tentativeness.Also goes to show Styles how often getting submitted has little to do with Jiu-Jitsu, and is often set up by strikes or wrestling or GnP etc. like it was here. Same happened when he got submitted by Overeem btw, he had just been rocked by strikes and knocked down, and then got submitted. Interestingly, same thing with Machida when he got submitted by Jones as well.
Edit - Anyways, WAR Vitor and give him much respect, and remember that he, a large middleweight, basically fought a small heavyweight on relatively short notice and put up a good fight. Much respect Vitor.
That's precisely what I said on the last page. MMA grappling isn't the exact same as pure grappling.
I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I doubt the weight disparity is that large. Vitor already complains that cutting to middleweight is very difficult for him, and Jones complained that Rashad is larger than him. Jones may be bigger, but it's not by much(my guess).
Originally posted by WARChaelSonnen!
BTW anyone else think that Vitor didn't really even try to fight the submission and simply tapped to end the fight? Seemed like an incredibly quick tap.
Originally posted by WARChaelSonnen!
the fight between mighty mouse and benavidez was freaking awesome and I have no respect for anyone who bood that fight. .
That's precisely what I said on the last page. MMA grappling isn't the exact same as pure grappling.
Ah well in that case I agree. Just like MMA striking is about fighting in a stance to avoid or defend the takedown and using the threat of the takedown to keep opponent guessing as you strike with them as it is about pure striking, and mma wrestling is about using strikes to keep your opponent guessing and set up the takedown, or timing it as your opponent is striking as it is about pure wrestling, mma bjj is largely about finishing off your opponent with jiu-jitsu after stunning them with strikes, or using wrestling to put them into dangerous positions where you can then sue your jiu-jitsu, and withstanding damage as you work your bjj, as it is about pure bjj.
That being said I don't think Lyoto has better BJJ than Vitor, pure or MMA, nor Rashad. Shogun at least has the advantage that he has an incredible chin and is maybe better at working through his jits while taking damage (his pure BJJ isn't bad either, he got to black belt in just three years, reached 5th place in the mundials and won the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu South American Championship), but Vitor is still the much better guy on the ground imo, and obviously was much more successful with it against Jones.
I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I doubt the weight disparity is that large. Vitor already complains that cutting to middleweight is very difficult for him, and Jones complained that Rashad is larger than him. Jones may be bigger, but it's not by much(my guess).
Doubt it, if you look at the height and frame Jon Jones is that of a HW while Vitor is that of a MW. If anything myabe the weight difference isn;t as big asd it should be because he's quite skinny for his ehgith and the chicken legs, but he has other advantages that come with the size such as the height and reach advantage, so imo they definitely belong in separate weight classes, and I just think it;s great testament to vitors skill that Vitor was still a threat despite losing his greatest asset (hands) and taking fight on short notice.
Curious how well you think Lil Nog would match up against Jones? He has imo, the best pure boxing out of anyone that's ever been in MMA, and with his 3rd degree BJJ black belt he's one of the best BJJ guys in MMA and the best by far that Jones will have faced. I think he outstrikes Jones on the feet and possibly submits him if Jones takes it to the ground. I think he's very underrated as a fighter actually, much better than Big Nog.
Originally posted by WARChaelSonnen!
Ah well in that case I agree. Just like MMA striking is about fighting in a stance to avoid or defend the takedown and using the threat of the takedown to keep opponent guessing as you strike with them as it is about pure striking, and mma wrestling is about using strikes to keep your opponent guessing and set up the takedown, or timing it as your opponent is striking as it is about pure wrestling, mma bjj is largely about finishing off your opponent with jiu-jitsu after stunning them with strikes, or using wrestling to put them into dangerous positions where you can then sue your jiu-jitsu, and withstanding damage as you work your bjj, as it is about pure bjj.That being said I don't think Lyoto has better BJJ than Vitor, pure or MMA, nor Rashad. Shogun at least has the advantage that he has an incredible chin and is maybe better at working through his jits while taking damage (his pure BJJ isn't bad either, he got to black belt in just three years, reached 5th place in the mundials and won the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu South American Championship), but Vitor is still the much better guy on the ground imo, and obviously was much more successful with it against Jones.
Doubt it, if you look at the height and frame Jon Jones is that of a HW while Vitor is that of a MW. If anything myabe the weight difference isn;t as big asd it should be because he's quite skinny for his ehgith and the chicken legs, but he has other advantages that come with the size such as the height and reach advantage, so imo they definitely belong in separate weight classes, and I just think it;s great testament to vitors skill that Vitor was still a threat despite losing his greatest asset (hands) and taking fight on short notice.
Curious how well you think Lil Nog would match up against Jones? He has imo, the best pure boxing out of anyone that's ever been in MMA, and with his 3rd degree BJJ black belt he's one of the best BJJ guys in MMA and the best by far that Jones will have faced. I think he outstrikes Jones on the feet and possibly submits him if Jones takes it to the ground. I think he's very underrated as a fighter actually, much better than Big Nog.
I agree that Vitor's bjj is better than Rashad's. His success against Jones's still seems more like his specific preparation + Jones underestimating him. If you want to bump Vitor up above Machida for that, I guess I won't argue much more. I just interpret it differently.
Jones has a size advantage, but you're talking more about reach now. I just meant weight.
He probably won't outstrike Jones, but the grappling aspect could prove interesting.
Looks like Chael Sonnen may be a fan of Sunny in Philly. Or he recognizes how great a man Dennis is, and desires to be him.
And why do you say that? It seems like sometime speople just like to forget that Chael is a great fighter or pretend that he isn;t because of his wwe like persona. Fact of the matter is that he is undoubtedly top 5 in his division, one of the top 40 P4P fighters in the world and one of the best MMA wrestlers of all time. He came damn close to winning the MW belt and arguably 1P4P fighter in the world, losing after a highly dominant fight to a moment of carelessness, and losing in the second fight against a cheater, he's beat most of the other contenders, and he was in title contention for LHW as well. Not many fighters can say to be offered a title shot for two different UFC belts. He is one of less than 15 I believe.
Chael being offered top spots isn't due to Chael being a superbly great fighter. He's a trash talker/has charisma and trash talkers gather huge followings of juveniles and wannbe bad-boys. Image matters a lot. eg Kimbo Slice.
So when Chael was giving those matches, it's cos the UFC was looking at big $$$ days as juveniles and wannabe bad-boys contribute a shit-ton on income to the UFC. ie guys like you.
Don't get me wrong, Chael's not a bad fighter, he's just not some spectacular fighter.
I can admit it was probably a factor for the LHW shot (though they wouldn't just give it to any good trash talker, he would need to be around contendership lvel) but MW? You don't think he was #2 MW at the time he fought Anderson? Even now the only guys I'd put ahead of him would be Weidman and Dan Henderson. And regardless of his trash talking I do think he at least makes top 10 for LHW.
I can admit that he's pretty 1-dimensnional, but he's just so good at that one thing and wrestling can be so significant that it's all he needs imo.