ufc/pride

He's one dimensional but when it's wrestling it works. Just look at Brock Lesnar.

What makes Chael a great fighter is that he has truly incredible cardio, he pushes a veyr high pace and is persistent and relentless with his takedowns, and he also mixes it up with crazy high intense striking, which can be effective because people are so worries about the TDs. And his TDs are P4P among the best in the sport, he doesn't even have to set them up to land then, and his top control is also truly incredible.

Brock Lesnar could throw an okay punch, Chael can't. Brock Lesnar had size/power going for him compared to many of his opponents.

Stop wanking Chael. He's not a bad fighter, let's leave it at that. 16 of 27 wins via decision.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with winning by decision no matter what you say. It's about winning at the end of the day, whatever way you can. Chael has comparatively as much power as Brock did, for the MW division. he's one of the few wrestlers who can just telegraph a TD and still get it with ease. Also, Chael is a better striker than Brock was, and he's better at taking a hit too.

I'm not wanking him, I'm giving you an accurate assessement. He's basically top 10 in a division he moved up in, top 2/3 in the division he's been fighting in. I don't know what exactly you mean by "not a bad fighter" but there's no point denying that Chael is an elite fighter. You don't get to top 3 of a division, dominate the champion for 6 consecutive rounds and not be an elite fighter.

As much of a fan of Chael as I am I can still happily admit that there are better fighters than him, but you're crazy if you don't think he's an elite fighter or in the top 40 P4P (realistically he breaks top 25).

Did anyone see Silva vs Bonnar?

Silva putting his back against the cage was crazy......then he got a takedown on Bonnar followed by a nice knee KO.

When I do drills with my back to the wall, all I want to do is run the **** away.

I'd respond to the earlier conversation in depth, but too much was said. I'll leave it at this: Chael is a top talent, although he'll never be the best.

So it looks like Chael and Jon Jones is back on, as well as a TUF season with both as coaches! 😄

Quick question: where do people rank Chael's mma wrestling, P4P, in all of MMA?

I'm not sure if I would rate him number 1 but he is up there imo, along with the likes of GSP, Frankie Edgar, Dominick Cruz, Demetrious Johnson, Jon Fitch, Jon Jones, Rashad Evans, Cain Velasquez and Daniel Cormier.

Do people think there is a chance he may be able to take Jon down, and if he does whether he will be able to keep him there?

I personally think that if he does get him down he will probably be able to keep him down, Jon Jones is a wrestler and a bit fo a noob when it comes to the BJJ game so I don;t think he'll be that good at getting up off of his back with someone like Chael on top of him (someone like Bisping for example would actually probably be a lot better than something like that then Jones, which is possibly why he had some success there against Chael).

I think his trick to taking Jones down will be to really take the fioght to Jones, fight really unorthodox with crazy striking and frinetic pace, don't be afraid to eat a few punches and be ready to power drive into Jones like he usually does.

So while people are writing Chael off he has a style that Jones hasn't really come across yet and because of that there is a big ? in this fight and Chael could possibly dominate a number of rounds against him.

Thoughts?

Also isn't it great to be a UFC fan? 😄

Fights to look forward to:

JDS Cain rematch, possibly JDS Overeem fight afterwards.
Jones Sonnes, then possible Jones Machida rematch afterweards.
Anderson's Silva's next match, maybe against Weidman, with superfights against GSP or Jones looming on the horizon.
Title unification for Georges and Condit.
Benson henderson vs Nate Diaz, interesting stylistic matchup.
JOSE ALDO VS FRANKIE EDGAR!!! (probably my most anticiaped matchup, I really hope Frankie pulls off the win, he's becomign one of my favorite fighetrs)
Title unification for Domnick and Renan
Mighty Mouse vs John Dodson

Quick quetsion on that last fight actually: why are people even giving Dodson a chance against Demetrious? We don't know how they truly stack up against eachother until we see the fight, but it seems thta people just think that it will be competitive because they are both so fast and Dodson will be the fastest guy Demetrious has ever faced. Well yeh sure Demetrious's speed is a factor to his success but his game is made up of far more than just that, mainyl his well roundedness and how well he transitions his wrestling with his striking, and Dodson hasn;t displayed a mixed approach even close to as good as Demetrious's. It's too bad Flyweight is so unstacked as I truly feel that Demetrious is P4P one of the best ion MMA but that he wont really be tested that much in his division. Maybe if he dominates for a while eh should try to move back upo to BW and see how he fares against Dominick in a rematch?

Also, whoever wins between Aldo and Edgar, do you think it should shoot them up the P4P rankings, to potentially top 3? Frankie's already #1 in my eyes but I know most people don;t see it that way (though Georges interestingly enough is one person that does - he rates it as Edgar, Jones, Anderson top 3, though maybe he's being humble in not putting himself up there.)

Updated P4P list:

1. Demetrious Johnson
2. Dominick Cruz
3. Jon Jones
4. Frankie Edgar
5. Georges St-Pierre
6. Junior Dos Santos
7. Jose Aldo
8. B.J. Penn
9. Anderson Silva
10. Lyoto Machida

My list would go:

1. St. Pierre
2. Siva
3. Jones
4. Dos Santos
5. Jose Aldo
6. Demetrious Johnson
7. Dominick Cruz
8. Edgar
9. Henderson
10. Machida

BJ Penn is retired (from what I remember) why is he even in the P4P list?

Anyway, just how I see the list to be. Then again P4P has always been a very subjective term.

He came out of retirement he's actually schedule to fight Rory Macdonald.

Out of curiosity is that Dan Henderon or Benson henderson?

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
He came out of retirement he's actually schedule to fight Rory Macdonald.

Out of curiosity is that Dan Henderon or Benson henderson?

I see it more of a "temporarily coming out of retirement to one last fight" kinda thing. I still see it as retired, tho.

Benson Henderson.

lol really? Nah man I think he was more prematurely announcing his retirement because Nick Diaz kicked his ass but that it was never a real retirement to begin with. Just like when Nick Diaz announced his retirement after the Condit fight (though in his case there was also the medical suspension to deal with but I believe he has stated he will be returning to fighting when it expires).

BTW how do people think Condit does against GSP? I've been watching some of his fights actually and his ground game is actually really good, possibly good enough to make the fightr reall interesting, though I think even if GSP can;t keep him down for that long or do too much on the ground, he can still probably take him down at will, and I think GSP also wins the fight standing as well, just imo.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Quick question: where do people rank Chael's mma wrestling, P4P, in all of MMA? Do people think there is a chance he may be able to take Jon down, and if he does whether he will be able to keep him there?

So while people are writing Chael off he has a style that Jones hasn't really come across yet and because of that there is a big ? in this fight and Chael could possibly dominate a number of rounds against him.

Also, whoever wins between Aldo and Edgar, do you think it should shoot them up the P4P rankings, to potentially top 3? Frankie's already #1 in my eyes but I know most people don;t see it that way (though Georges interestingly enough is one person that does - he rates it as Edgar, Jones, Anderson top 3, though maybe he's being humble in not putting himself up there.)

Chael's only hope is wrestling, which he debatably is worse at. All other advantages go to Jones, so most people think Jones will maul him.

It'll help both of their cases, but I don't know if it'll warrant a #3 rank. Maybe Aldo I guess.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Updated P4P list:

1. Demetrious Johnson
2. Dominick Cruz
3. Jon Jones
4. Frankie Edgar
5. Georges St-Pierre
6. Junior Dos Santos
7. Jose Aldo
8. B.J. Penn
9. Anderson Silva
10. Lyoto Machida

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. St. Pierre
2. Siva
3. Jones
4. Dos Santos
5. Jose Aldo
6. Demetrious Johnson
7. Dominick Cruz
8. Edgar
9. Henderson
10. Machida

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
BTW how do people think Condit does against GSP?

good enough to make the fight really interesting

Unlike Shields, Condit can strike. Unlike Hardy, Condit can grapple. He can't wrestle though, which might hurt him.

Why not place Edgar that high? He's literally got everything that makes one an elite fighter and a top P4P guy.

1. He has extremely well rounded skills, being one of the top boxers in MMA right now, one of the top wrestlers and a decent ground game, as well as having an absolutely iron chin.

2. He was the champion at LW, and in most peoples eyes should still be the champion getting robbed in the second bendo fight, arguably the most stacked division, all the while being heavily undersized where he could easily make FW and possibly even BW.

3. He defeated a legend/elite and fellow P4P phenom, B.J. Penn, twice, again while being undersized, and while the first fight is arguable he clearly dominated the second, outwrestling the legendary defencive wrestler, outboxing one of the boxing elite in MMA, there was even a moment where BJ Penn, the BJJ prodigy had his back, and he reversed it instantly. Given how good B.J. Penn is, that he dominated him so badly speaks wonders for his ability. He took him down WITh EASE while being the much smaller guy, the same guy that Matt Hughes and GSP (in the early rounds) and even freaking HW Randy Couture (in training) struggled to take down.

Why should Anderson be placed higher P4P? He doesn't have a history of fighting the elite of higher weight classes, he hasn't beat anyone as good as B.J. Penn, he's certainly not as well rounded, and there is a very clear whole in his game (control).

These lists are all subjective but I typically place a large emphasis on control, so for me the top guys are usually the fight build of "elite wrestler, elite striker" followed by "elite defencive wrestler, elite striker" and then you have either truly elite wrestlers, "elite striker, absolute submission demon on the ground" or people like Anderson or Lyoto who are so good at one thing (striking), have pretty good TDD, as well as BJJ black belts if the fight goes to the ground (and in anderson's case he also has superhuman chin/durability and as champion he has five rounds to finish guys).

So if you look at my list the top five are all elite wrestlers and elite strikers, the next 3 are elite strikers and elite defencive wrestlers, and then Anderson and Lyoto.

For the record I love watching Anderson fight and he is imo one of the most exciting fighters ever and probably right now the best striker in MMA, but he rules over one of the weaker divisions in MMA, and if he went to LHW like smaller guys such as Shogun, Machida, and Rashad have, he would possibly be champion before Jones came along, he probably beats a lot of guys but I don't think he'd have the same unbeaten streak if he had to face the likes of Rampage, Rashad, Lyoto, Shogun, and now Jones, and whne those fighters were in their primes. He woudl ahve lost at some point, still be considered a great fighter but maybe people wouldn't consider him so unstoppable and acknowledge that he does have flaws, maybe more easily exploitable in 3 rounds.

At MW the only truly elite guys he has faced imo are Vitor and Chael (Hendo does not have the fight IQ that makes him elite in practise against a guy like Anderson, as he likes to strike and brawl at times when his best bet would be to solely focus on his wrestling). We saw what happened in the Chael fights, he got dominated in the first, cheated in the second. Against Vitor he won spectacularly, but he won't be pulling that off against every elite striker he faces. 3 great wins, big ? mark on two of them, and at LHW he would be facing much better competition.

I have to say though I definitely think Condit's ground game has impressed me more than his striking. His stirking is certainly good, and while he mixes things up a lot of ther stuff he throws, particularly the more extravagant stuff, is actually very telegraphed and he certainly won't be landign anything like that on someone like GSP. He does have power in his punches, the KO against Dan Hardy was sweet but imo it was helped by the fact that Dan Hardy was also in the process of throwing a power punch at the same time, where they both kind of connected but Condit got there first. He doesn't have the same kind of power as someone like, jake Ellenberger imo. And if you look at the Rory Macdonald fight Rory was atcually winning the standup for most of the fight until he got hurt in the third, so imo GSP beats him standing, he was outstrikign BJ Penn in the first round of their second fight (so before BJ gassed) who imo is better striker than Condit even at WW.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis

If you're going the for the whole "fights above his natural weight" shenanigans, then be consistent. You'll need to drop GSP and Jon Jones too. Silva has actually fought outside his weight class unlike those two, yet you always single him out for whatever reason. I personally think Edgar is below them all. Silva, GSP, and Jones have left paths of destruction Edgar hasn't replicated.

Also, Johnson's place is curious. I get that you respect the smaller fighters, but he literally just got his belt. Why would he suddenly be number 1 when Silva and GSP have been destroying all challengers for years?

It's your list obviously, so you can rank them however you want. It just seems like your ranking stems from Silva hate rather than genuine scrutiny.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
I have to say though I definitely think Condit's ground game has impressed me more than his striking. His stirking is certainly good, and while he mixes things up a lot of ther stuff he throws, particularly the more extravagant stuff, is actually very telegraphed and he certainly won't be landign anything like that on someone like GSP. He does have power in his punches, the KO against Dan Hardy was sweet but imo it was helped by the fact that Dan Hardy was also in the process of throwing a power punch at the same time, where they both kind of connected but Condit got there first. He doesn't have the same kind of power as someone like, jake Ellenberger imo. And if you look at the Rory Macdonald fight Rory was atcually winning the standup for most of the fight until he got hurt in the third, so imo GSP beats him standing, he was outstrikign BJ Penn in the first round of their second fight (so before BJ gassed) who imo is better striker than Condit even at WW.

Bro, as I've said before Anderson Silva is imo the most exciting fighter to watch in MMA, and any Anderson Silva fight against a top striker, e.g. Vitor Belfort, is one of my most aniticpated fights. You'll notice I also placed Lyoto Machida pretty low as well, who is possibly my favorite fighter.

I've already explained my reasoning, control is imo a very important factor in these fights and Anderson Silva does have a bit of a weakness in that sense. And it's not a massive weakness, he has statistically the second best TDD at MW, but when faced against top wrestlers he ahs eben taken down pretty easily and I just think that there are a lot of great wrestlers out there who also have pretty good ground games and are good standing as well, such as Rashad Evans, GSP, Jones or Chris Weidman, and imo he has never fought anyone like that and it is a test he has yet to overcome.

Maybe you should learn to reapect others opinions and udnerstand that not everybody rates strikers as highly as wrestlers, or well rounded wrestlers. It is my opinion that wrestling is the most effective style in MMA, why is it that you can't get past that and accusing me of being a hater? Do you not remember when I was saying that with his skills I think if Anderson went into boxing at the beginning of his career he would be the P4P best boxer in the world today? Does that sounds like a hater?

Regarding DJ, yeh he just got his belt but I like to look at the fighters skills in the moment, not their overall place over a great period of time, and in getting that belt he compeltely outclassed someone as good as benavidez, somebody who was #2 at BW for a veyr long time despite being undersized, and in the fight showed incrediuble striking, great submission defence against someone from team alpha male, and his mma takedowns wowed me personally and i think he has some of the best timing out of all the fights.

I already explained Edgar dude. He beat BJ Penn, the guy who goes up in weight class to fight the veyr best, at his very own game (being smaller than him when he beat him). B.J. Penn has some of the best boxing in MMA, Freddy Roach personally says so, and Frankie Edgar boxed him up pretty decisively in the second fight. BJ Penn arguably has the most legendary TDD in the sport, matt hughes and GSP struggled to take him down, even Rnady Couture had a hard time in training, Frankie Edgar did it at will. BJ Penn was the BJJ prodigy, earning black belt faster than any other non Brazilian, and winning the mundials and world championship after just a year of being a black belt I believe, and when he had Edgar's back (and BJ is a bakc specialist) Frankie reversed it easily.

All while being quite possibly, two weight classes below Bj Penn in size and frame? How does anybody else not see how incedible that is. And besides that one win he was champion at ahigher weight class for quite some time, and he is among the most well rounded fighters in MMA, being elite in striking and wrestling, and also having a decent ground game, in fact some very good defencive BJJ. Add in the granite chin, and for his size he has a lot of power, being the first to finish Gray Maynard with strikes for example.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Silva, GSP, and Jones have left paths of destruction Edgar hasn't replicated.

To be fair, I think Frankie has had the stiffer competition. All 3 of Frankie's last opponents were at least at some point on the top 10 p4p list when he fought them.

He's also only 3 feet tall and 80lbs.

pierre vs conduit

Originally posted by batdude123
To be fair, I think Frankie has had the stiffer competition. All 3 of Frankie's last opponents were at least at some point on the top 10 p4p list when he fought them.

Ah didn't realise Gray Maynard ever was so nice, and plus LW is generally considered the most talent stacked division, and Frankie Edgar was at leats one, arguably two wgiht classes undersized for it.

Question: Was B.J. Penn ever considered the number 1 P4P fighter int he world, or at least in the top 3? He definitely shuld have been at some point imo but not sure if he ever was.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Updated P4P list:

1. Demetrious Johnson
2. Dominick Cruz
3. Jon Jones
4. Frankie Edgar
5. Georges St-Pierre
6. Junior Dos Santos
7. Jose Aldo
8. B.J. Penn
9. Anderson Silva
10. Lyoto Machida

I can understand placing Frankie high on the list. He is all heart, and should get points for competing above his natural weight class by choice (where as someone like Mighty Mouse or Uncle Creepy had to do so by necessity and dropped down the moment the option was available) and being successful. But his record isn't that great. 1-1-1 with Grey, 2-0 with BJ and 0-2 with Bendo (IMO he should be 1-1 with BJ and 1-1 with Bendo, but whatever). He also has wins over Sherk and Jim Miller, years ago. It's true that LW is one of the most stacked divisions... but Frankie didn't fight really get the chance to test himself against many of the top fighters, because he has been forced into rematch after rematch. It's not like he beat Diaz, Guida, Pettis, and Cerrone. Jones, Silva and GSP have all cleared out their entire divisions.

As for Cruz and Mighty Mouse? Well Flyweight and Bantamweight are weak divisions. Those two just haven't had the top fights or beaten the type of names that GSP, Silva and Jones have. Placing them in the 1 and 2 spot is laughable. Do you really believe that if you dropped Cruz, and Anderson into the same body (height, weight, reach) and made them fight... that Cruz would win? Because that is essentially the point of P4P rankings. If Anderson fought Mighty Mouse or Cruz in equal bodies... he'd blow them out of the ****ing water. Same for Bones and GSP.