ufc/pride

(IMO he should be 1-1 with BJ and 1-1 with Bendo, but whatever).

Agreed but imo (and I'm guessing you agree) he won the second of both fights, which essentially means he avenged the losses and emerged ultimately as the victory.

It's true that LW is one of the most stacked divisions... but Frankie didn't fight really get the chance to test himself against many of the top fighters, because he has been forced into rematch after rematch. It's not like he beat Diaz, Guida, Pettis, and Cerrone. Jones, Silva and GSP have all cleared out their entire divisions.

True but he has fought the very best few imo, for sure in BJ Penn and Bendo but even Gray Maynard is a win as impressive as the others imo. And I think we can agree that he has clear ways to win those fights (outstriking guida easily, outwrestling cowboy, pettis and diaz if he needs to, though striking against them would also be pretty competitive imo).

But yeh I agree if you just look at the record alone the others are more impressive in the kind of winning streaks and general record they've had, but it's the fact that he was so undersized which makes it so impressive to me, and imo dominating BJ Penn while udnersized like he did in the rematch is one of the best victories I can think of... maybe even the best.

As for Cruz and Mighty Mouse? Well Flyweight and Bantamweight are weak divisions. Those two just haven't had the top fights or beaten the type of names that GSP, Silva and Jones have. Placing them in the 1 and 2 spot is laughable

True the divisions overall arent the best but they have faced some good competition, namely Urijah Faber and Joseph Benvidez who imo do qualify as elite competition.

But its more about how well wrounded both are. They are both, imo, elite wrestlers, arguably the best wrestlers in their respective divisions, with decent ground games as well. So when you consider that, and then look at how great their stirking is (Dominick Cruz with his such an unorthodox style and being so evasive, and Might Mouse with his speed and footwork), well I can't think of many more well rounded fighters. In fact they are both arguably the best striker, and the best wrestler, in their respective divisions. So imo along with Jon Jones, GSP and Frankie Edgar, they are truly something special when it comes to possessing elite, well rounded skills.

Do you really believe that if you dropped Cruz, and Anderson into the same body (height, weight, reach) and made them fight... that Cruz would win?

Absolutely. Sure Anderson is easily the better striker and probably the best stirker in MMA, but Cruz would be able to control with his wrestling, and possesses his own elite level of striking (granted not on level of anderson) but in particular being so hard to hit that it reduces the chance of anderson being able to finish him standing when crz wouldnt be controlling ewith his wrestling. Same with MM, Edgar, Jones, GSP.

So yeh my top 5 are pretty much definite picks for me personally, simply for the fact that all 5, are arguably the ebsts triker, and the best wrestler, in their divisions. If they conceivably foguth eachother (same body etc), I think wrestling would maybe canel eachother out and that its really the striking that seperates them, so I guess how I rank the top 5 is really based around how I rank them as strikers, in which case I do believe that P4P, as strikers, MM>Cruz>Jones>Frankie>GSP. My personal opinion anyway.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Bro, as I've said before Anderson Silva is imo the most exciting fighter to watch in MMA, and any Anderson Silva fight against a top striker, e.g. Vitor Belfort, is one of my most aniticpated fights. You'll notice I also placed Lyoto Machida pretty low as well, who is possibly my favorite fighter.

I've already explained my reasoning, control is imo a very important factor in these fights and Anderson Silva does have a bit of a weakness in that sense. And it's not a massive weakness, he has statistically the second best TDD at MW, but when faced against top wrestlers he ahs eben taken down pretty easily and I just think that there are a lot of great wrestlers out there who also have pretty good ground games and are good standing as well, such as Rashad Evans, GSP, Jones or Chris Weidman, and imo he has never fought anyone like that and it is a test he has yet to overcome.

Maybe you should learn to reapect others opinions and udnerstand that not everybody rates strikers as highly as wrestlers, or well rounded wrestlers. It is my opinion that wrestling is the most effective style in MMA, why is it that you can't get past that and accusing me of being a hater? Do you not remember when I was saying that with his skills I think if Anderson went into boxing at the beginning of his career he would be the P4P best boxer in the world today? Does that sounds like a hater?

Regarding DJ, yeh he just got his belt but I like to look at the fighters skills in the moment, not their overall place over a great period of time, and in getting that belt he compeltely outclassed someone as good as benavidez, somebody who was #2 at BW for a veyr long time despite being undersized, and in the fight showed incrediuble striking, great submission defence against someone from team alpha male, and his mma takedowns wowed me personally and i think he has some of the best timing out of all the fights.

I already explained Edgar dude. He beat BJ Penn, the guy who goes up in weight class to fight the veyr best, at his very own game (being smaller than him when he beat him). B.J. Penn has some of the best boxing in MMA, Freddy Roach personally says so, and Frankie Edgar boxed him up pretty decisively in the second fight. BJ Penn arguably has the most legendary TDD in the sport, matt hughes and GSP struggled to take him down, even Rnady Couture had a hard time in training, Frankie Edgar did it at will. BJ Penn was the BJJ prodigy, earning black belt faster than any other non Brazilian, and winning the mundials and world championship after just a year of being a black belt I believe, and when he had Edgar's back (and BJ is a bakc specialist) Frankie reversed it easily.

By that same token, they've never faced someone like Silva, save for maybe Machida, who destroyed Rashad and gave Jones a fight. ABC logic doesn't always work, but Silva completely humiliated the larger Stephan Bonnar......who fought both Rashad and Jones to decisions...

When did I disrepect your opinion? I've always enjoyed your post, even if I don't agree with a lot of them. This isn't about striking vs wrestling. It's about effectiveness as a fighter. I accused you of bias because you've shown bias against Silva ever since you first appeared here. Your list uses a double standard for Silva, so it looks like more Silva hate. If it's not, cool, but you've got to understand you've had a history of it. Saying "he'd be a great boxer" doesn't change that.

That's one way to look at it I guess. I think including records and stuff helps objectivity though.

Oh, ok cool. Just ya know....apply it to everyone on your list.

Originally posted by batdude123
To be fair, I think Frankie has had the stiffer competition. All 3 of Frankie's last opponents were at least at some point on the top 10 p4p list when he fought them.

Well you know, coming to think about it maybe I was ranking Silva too low. Obviously I have already explained that the top 5 for me are pretty much set in stone but thinking about it, Anderson does have pretty good TDD even if it isnt on the level of say, someone like Jose Aldo, he can end a fight just so easily and is so difficult to damage, that I'm thinking he should maybe take the #6 spot. In fact, this should be the new, revised order:

1. Demetrious Johnson
2. Dominick Cruz
3. Jon Jones
4. Frankie Edgar
5. Georges St-Pierre
6. Anderson Silva
7. Jose Aldo
8. Lyoto Machida
9. Junior Dos Santos
10. B.J. Penn

If anyone's place on the P4P list is questionable, it's Jones. He's been fighting a bunch of "old lions" (to borrow from Vitor). Sure we can tout about the past glories and how these guys were all former champs... but that's because the LHW hasn't had a dominate champ since Liddell in 06 and since then that bounced to virtually every top fighter on the roster before Jones showed up. It's impressive that we can say "former LHW champion" in front of the fighters he's beaten, but if he holds the belt as long as Silva or GSP, all those guys will have retired, and he'll just be fighting contenders. GSP and Silva aren't fighting former champs, because there aren't any, they've held the belt for too long. If GSP and Silva vacated their divisions, their belts would change hands every title defense. Shogun is past his prime and didn't come back strong after his last injury. Rampage has that problem Danaher was talking about at the end of the GSP / Condit Primetime, he just isn't motivated anymore, it's hard to get out of bed to train when you are sleeping on silk sheets and you have millions of dollars in the bank. Vitor is a MW now and he hasn't beaten a top 10 fighter since Couture in 2004. Rashad is too small and should be working with a nutritionist to get down to MW where he can destroy everyone. Machida is Jones' best went, and he is 2-3 in his last five. What's next? Chael and then Hendo? Arg.

I really don't think JBJ record is as impressive as everyone likes to pretend it is.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If anyone's place on the P4P list is questionable, it's Jones. He's been fighting a bunch of "old lions" (to borrow from Vitor). Sure we can tout about the past glories and how these guys were all former champs... but that's because the LHW hasn't had a dominate champ since Liddell in 06 and since then that bounced to virtually every top fighter on the roster before Jones showed up. It's impressive that we can say "former LHW champion" in front of the fighters he's beaten, but if he holds the belt as long as Silva or GSP, all those guys will have retired, and he'll just be fighting contenders. GSP and Silva aren't fighting former champs, because there aren't any, they've held the belt for too long. If GSP and Silva vacated their divisions, their belts would change hands every title defense. Shogun is past his prime and didn't come back strong after his last injury. Rampage has that problem Danaher was talking about at the end of the GSP / Condit Primetime, he just isn't motivated anymore, it's hard to get out of bed to train when you are sleeping on silk sheets and you have millions of dollars in the bank. Vitor is a MW now and he hasn't beaten a top 10 fighter since Couture in 2004. Rashad is too small and should be working with a nutritionist to get down to MW where he can destroy everyone. Machida is Jones' best went, and he is 2-3 in his last five. What's next? Chael and then Hendo? Arg.

I really don't think JBJ record is as impressive as everyone likes to pretend it is.

I agree to an extent, mainly that most of his opponents are either much smaller, or past their prime, or both.

Still, this thread reminded me of how great his wrestling truly is:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/jon-jones-best-wrestler-mma-gifs-2229305/

And no matter how you look at it, his stirking performances against Lyoto and others shows that he's an elite level striker, where he's basically outstruck everyone he's ever fought.

Add in his finishing instinct with submissions, and how deadly his GnP is, and I think he should def be one of the top P4P fighters,

Anybody else thinks that, as long as GSP's injury doesnt prove too bad, that Condits getting seriously outclassed later tonight?

That is an interesting stance on Jones, and one I don't usually see. Most people consider LHW stacked at the upper levels, and attribute the frequent belt changes to that. I agree that the whole "beating former champions" is meaningless here though. It feels like just a marketing tool in that division. I don't mind ranking him lower though. I sometimes wonder if someone will "figure him out" and we'll all look back on Jones like we did on Machida. People thought he'd be unstoppable too.

What I don't get is why people keep ranking Dos Santos so high. ermm

I agree with you on GSP/Condit, Mortis.

Just for fun though, say Condit manages to beat GSP. How do you all think their P4P spots would change?

Well to be fair he is champion and has been pretty dominant. He's won all 9 of his UFC fights, 7 of them via finish, and the decisions were one sided beatings. He stuffed Cain Velasques's takedowns and knocked him out really early in the fight, put on a striking clinic against Shane Carwin, two great HWs. He's a great striker, and is great at keeping fights standing.

Of course imo Alistair Overeem is the much better striker (so is Mark Hunt but he has a poor game elsewhere) and he's not just a striker, he has a good ground game and TDD as well but it's also worth considering that JDS is quite a small HW.

Depends on how Condit beats him if he does, but I think he mvoes to maybe, around 5 on the P4P list and GSP drops to around 8.

Holy shit that was one hell of a knockout....

Well, GSP/Condit went exactly as I said. GSP's control dictated the fight, but Condit's power and scrambling ability made it interesting. Condit's kick almost KO'd GSP in round 3, he managed to reverse GSP a few times, and he drew blood. That was probably GSP's toughest title fight. Diaz wouldn't have done nearly as well. vin

Hendricks is next in line for the title shot though, and that should be interesting. He dropped Kampann like a bad habit, if I may borrow the cliche.

Oh, and Ronda Rousey becomes the first woman signed to the UFC.

http://www.mmalinker.com/i.php?url=http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/mmajunkie/~3/5R-so1g27c0/dana-white-strikeforce-champ-ronda-rousey-officially-signed-to-ufc.mma

Indeed pretty much what I was expecting. Though I have to sya anyubody else think GSPs standup looked a little sloppy at all? Think it migth either have been the ring rust or he was trying to be mroe aggresive. Though I have to say the head kick that Condit landed was pretty damn sweet, he expertly feinted with what appeared to be a basic combo and then released the kick when it seemed the combo was finished. Though I also have to say, I dont like that Condit was being billed as GSPs most well rounded, toughest test yet. Even at WW, I think BJ is still probably the best guy GSP has ever faced and certainly the most well rounded. Condit's TDD is a pretty big hole that does not go well when stacked up against GSP's wrestling. GSp's wrestling, mixed with his BJJ, is just so good that I think as far as the rgappling goes the only real answer is to defend the takedown, which is why stylistically, I think the best matchup for GSP is the defencive wrestler/striker style. So GSPs thoughest opponents in the division right now imo would be BJ, Ellenberger, Hendricks, and Koscheck, in that order.

Diaz would definitely get picked apart by GSP's stirking and he doesn't possess the same threat that Condit does in his flash finishing but I think with the ground game he would probably be a greater threat than Condit. Aside from Demian Maia and BJ, Nick has the best BJJ in the division imo (at least out of the big name, elite fighters that are in the UFC).

Definitely not thrilled that WMMA is entering the UFC, think it should be on seperate cards and personally not a fan of watching women fighting, in fact it almost makes the sport seem barbaric to me when seeing stuff like that.

One thing I was thinking about the Anderson Silva-GSP fight: it's kind of interesting when say, you have one fighter that outclass another, but the other guy with real ko power, and you say the other guy has a punchers chance, meaning hes outclassed but theres a possibiltiy he connects and knocks the other guy out, but its not likely. Well, isn;t that really how you would describe Anderson's chances in this fight? By all likelihood GSP will be able to take him down at will, and he will be able to hold him down (and he certainly wouldn't be in any real danger on the ground with his great wrestling and BJJ). So hasn't Anderson Silva only really got a puncher's chance really?

As good and dangerous a striker Anderson is, I dont see how you view him as the favorite in this fight. Also, it's also worht nothing that, purely as a striker, GSP will probably be the best striker Anderson Silva has faced when you think about it, aside from Vitor Belfort of course, and while Belfort is the much more dangerous striker with more effective offense, I would say actually that GSP might actually be the best defencive striker Anderson would have ever faced, what with his athleticism, Karate style leaping in and out and his great boxing and sense of distancing. And sure you may point to Condit dropping him, but imo GSP had a sense of ring rust, was trying to be more aggresive and exciting and stainding on the feet longer then he would if he was playing it safe, plus he did not jhave Greg Jackson in his corner giving him a great gameplan. Without those factors, GSP would play a much safer, smarter fight against Silva imo. Plus, Anderson doesn;t really use the kind of combo/feint that Condit used to drop him, when Anderson hurts guys it's usually either in the clinch, or when he's countering guys that are being the aggresor.

So imo GSP wins this fight and should be favorite (as in 80-20 favorite imo).

In fact, I think right now if you look at all the people that GSP could realistically face, his toughest matchup would be against Jake Ellenberger imo. He has power on par with Hendricks imo but with much better striking, and I think his MMA wrestling is among the best in the division.

Also, what are peoples thoughts on the Frankie Edgar Aldo fight? Very interesting stylistic matchup imo and right now two of the P4P elite. Apparently Aldo has an absolutely world class BJJ game, but then Frankie Edgar is a powerful wrestler with decent ground game and rgeat defencive BJJ. Edgar is an incredible takedown artist but Aldo has great TDD. Aldo has a lot of [power and is very dangerous, Edgar is almost impossible to finish and has incredible cardio. Edgar has highly skilled boxing, Aldo has great Muay Thai. Edgar uses great movement and footwork, Aldo has vicious kicks that takes away peopels' movement, Edgar is soemwhat of an expert at catching kicks etc.

When you look at it, great stylistic matchup, and I'll obviously be rooting for Edgar (funny how he has dropped a weightclass and is STILL going to be the smaller guy) but I hope it is a good, competitive fight.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
One thing I was thinking about the Anderson Silva-GSP fight: it's kind of interesting when say, you have one fighter that outclass another, but the other guy with real ko power, and you say the other guy has a punchers chance, meaning hes outclassed but theres a possibiltiy he connects and knocks the other guy out, but its not likely. Well, isn;t that really how you would describe Anderson's chances in this fight? By all likelihood GSP will be able to take him down at will, and he will be able to hold him down (and he certainly wouldn't be in any real danger on the ground with his great wrestling and BJJ). So hasn't Anderson Silva only really got a puncher's chance really?

As good and dangerous a striker Anderson is, I dont see how you view him as the favorite in this fight. Also, it's also worht nothing that, purely as a striker, GSP will probably be the best striker Anderson Silva has faced when you think about it, aside from Vitor Belfort of course, and while Belfort is the much more dangerous striker with more effective offense, I would say actually that GSP might actually be the best defencive striker Anderson would have ever faced, what with his athleticism, Karate style leaping in and out and his great boxing and sense of distancing. And sure you may point to Condit dropping him, but imo GSP had a sense of ring rust, was trying to be more aggresive and exciting and stainding on the feet longer then he would if he was playing it safe, plus he did not jhave Greg Jackson in his corner giving him a great gameplan. Without those factors, GSP would play a much safer, smarter fight against Silva imo. Plus, Anderson doesn;t really use the kind of combo/feint that Condit used to drop him, when Anderson hurts guys it's usually either in the clinch, or when he's countering guys that are being the aggresor.

So imo GSP wins this fight and should be favorite (as in 80-20 favorite imo).

In fact, I think right now if you look at all the people that GSP could realistically face, his toughest matchup would be against Jake Ellenberger imo. He has power on par with Hendricks imo but with much better striking, and I think his MMA wrestling is among the best in the division.

I think Belfort's striking is overrated. Liddell out struck him. Overeem out struck him. Anderson out struck him. Bones out struck him. Anyone who knows how to kick has pretty much out struck Belfort. He got a flash ko over Wanderlei more than a decade ago, but who has he out classed striking since then? An over the hill Rich Franklin? He was out striking Tito I guess, but pretty much every other top ten he has fought has out pointed him in the stand up game. Even Hendo was getting the better of the standup (as limited as that was in there fight). GSP has only ever been out struck once, when Serra caught him behind the ear and then swarmed. I would say GSP is, without a shadow of a doubt, the best striker Silva has fought. Obviously the reverse is also true. As good as BJ, Alves and Condit are standing up, Silva is better.

Agree with everything else though.

To be fair though those guys were all great strikers. Liddell, Overeem, Anderson, even Jones has outstruck basically everyone he's ever fought including Machida (and Vitor's hand was broken during that fight for the record, I believe he was also injured going into the Sakuraba fight). And Henderson basically dominated with his wrestling, you cant really gauge anything off of their striking from that fight. And sure he might not have bested many real strikers, but he has beaten a lot of decent strikers, and when he has he's basically destroyed them. Rich Franklin is by no means a bad striker and Vitor completely wrecked him, same with a lot of the guys he's finished over the years, many of which were HWs. It's the way he just destroys average to decent strikers that shows that he is a very good striker himself, even though he has never really managed to get a really good win against a real elite.

GSP is a better defencive striker and probably more technically skilled as well, but I think the fact that Vitor is a pretty skilled striker himself, combined with such explosiveness and incredible finishing ability, is what makes him the overall better striker. He's going to absoltuely destroy Bisping when they fight.

Put it this way, out of the two of them if anything I would expect Vitor to have a better chance of beating Anderson in a striking match then GSP. But at the same time I dont think Georges would ever put himelf into a position where he could get finished quite like Vitor did, as he would always be moving and approaching the fight with a defencive and safe midnset. So in terms of just being able to avoid getting damged in the stand up while waiting for an opportunity to get the fight to the ground, there aren;t many people better suited to it than Georges. In fact, if Georges somehow was one of those guys that possessed a real granite chin, like a Mark Hunt or someone, I would give Anderson virtually no chance in this fight.

Might as well post my MMA rankings here:

HW:

1. Alistair Overeem
2. Junior Dos Santos
3. Daniel Cormier
4. Cain Velasquez
5. Frank Mir

LHW:

1. Jon Jones
2. Rashad Evans
3. Lyoto Machida
4. Phil Davis
5. Chael Sonnen

MW:

1. Anderson Silva
2. Chris Weidman
3. Vitor Belfort
4. Alan Belcher
5. Rousimar Palhares

WW:

1. GSP
2. B.J. Penn
3. Jake Ellenberger
4. Johny Hendricks
5. Rory Macdonald

LW:

1. Benson Henderson
2. Gray Maynard
3. Nate Diaz
4. Donald Cerrone
5. Anthony Pettis

FW:

1. Frankie Edgar
2. Jose Aldo
3. Clay Guida
4. Chad Mendes

BW:

1. Dominick Cruz
2. Renan Barao
3. Urijah Faber

FLW:

1. Demetrious Johnson
2. Joseph benavidez
3. Ian Mccall
4. John Dodson
0
•
Reply
•
Share ›

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
To be fair though those guys were all great strikers. Liddell, Overeem, Anderson, even Jones has outstruck basically everyone he's ever fought including Machida (and Vitor's hand was broken during that fight for the record, I believe he was also injured going into the Sakuraba fight). And Henderson basically dominated with his wrestling, you cant really gauge anything off of their striking from that fight. And sure he might not have bested many real strikers, but he has beaten a lot of decent strikers, and when he has he's basically destroyed them. Rich Franklin is by no means a bad striker and Vitor completely wrecked him, same with a lot of the guys he's finished over the years, many of which were HWs. It's the way he just destroys average to decent strikers that shows that he is a very good striker himself, even though he has never really managed to get a really good win against a real elite.

GSP is a better defencive striker and probably more technically skilled as well, but I think the fact that Vitor is a pretty skilled striker himself, combined with such explosiveness and incredible finishing ability, is what makes him the overall better striker. He's going to absoltuely destroy Bisping when they fight.

Put it this way, out of the two of them if anything I would expect Vitor to have a better chance of beating Anderson in a striking match then GSP. But at the same time I dont think Georges would ever put himelf into a position where he could get finished quite like Vitor did, as he would always be moving and approaching the fight with a defencive and safe midnset. So in terms of just being able to avoid getting damged in the stand up while waiting for an opportunity to get the fight to the ground, there aren;t many people better suited to it than Georges. In fact, if Georges somehow was one of those guys that possessed a real granite chin, like a Mark Hunt or someone, I would give Anderson virtually no chance in this fight.

Fair enough. I still think Vitor's striking is over rated. He is too one dimensional standing, his hands are great but he always seemed outclassed against some one who uses muay thai. Just my opinion.

I was thinking about this the other day, GSP was only cleared to train 10 weeks before the UFC 154. He didn't even get the standard three months, and according to GSP and his trainers the first month he was so bad he considered retiring. Carlos took nine months off to train knowing he'd get GSP when he returned. That's pretty crazy if you think about it. I don't think anyone at WW can beat GSP without a master stroke of luck.

Too bad we didnt get to see him against Belcher who is way better than Bisping and has awesome Muay Thai, but I dont think he would have had any real problems. Rich Franklin is a decent Mauy Thai practitioner and Vitor made short work of him.

Indeed. Fun fact: GSP holds the record for most consecutive rounds run at 33 (Lyoto Machida on the other hand went longest unbeaten run for rounds at 17). He also has highest number of top 5 wins at 13, and has beaten 6 people who at the time were on the P4P best list. People are giving Anderson too much credit.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
People are giving Anderson too much credit.

You're just now figuring this out?