Methuselah... 969 years old or not?

Started by Janus Marius5 pages

Originally posted by peejayd
* ah... bro... speaking of historians, Jesus Christ was written in the Roman history... 😉

* we should believe in the Bible more than any book because the Bible was written by spiritually-inspired men...

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost ."
II Peter 1:21

* and if you believe in Christ, you should believe in the Bible because Christ's words, laws and His life was written in it... 😉

* the Bible may be rewritten and translated to several different languages and dialects but with the power of our technology nowadays, we can discern and trace up to the original manuscript what really is the spirit of the Bible...

* believing in Christ is tantamount of saying, you also believe in the Bible because the true Christ is what the Bible says... 😉

So let me get this straight... You're validifying the holiness and correctness of the Bible by using... the Bible?

Anyone else find a serious problem with that?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So let me get this straight... You're validifying the holiness and correctness of the Bible by using... the Bible?

Anyone else find a serious problem with that?

No, I think it makes perfect sence.

That'd be like me saying... "I am an expert in all things nautical". And you ask, why should I believe that? And I reply "Beause I said so."

That's what's wrong with it.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
That'd be like me saying... "I am an expert in all things nautical". And you ask, why should I believe that? And I reply "Beause I said so."

That's what's wrong with it.

You didn't get my satirical statement...come on, I even said "sence"...

Sometimes I read too fast for my own good.

Mid 900's according to the bible was the average life span.. God dropped this down to the 150's.. then dropped it again to the lifespans we have today.. He did this because of the wikedness of mankind..

and anyway.. Methuselah age is nothing though... Enoch is still living..

^^ Yeah, god took him away on a space ship! 😐

Been reading Chariots of the Gods again?

Originally posted by debbiejo
What Roman history? Josephus a historian from that time period never even mentioned him, and if Jesus was BIG NEWS, you would of thought he would of given him at least ONE paragraph if not pages...

actually Josephus does mention him twice, very briefly.

Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

There is some debate about whether or not some of the things said about jesus were inserted by later christian historians, but there is little debate that josephus did know of jesus.

Originally posted by docb77
actually Josephus does mention him twice, very briefly.

[b]Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

There is some debate about whether or not some of the things said about jesus were inserted by later christian historians, but there is little debate that josephus did know of jesus. [/B]


why did you post that twice?

"There is some debate about whether or not some of the things said about jesus were inserted by later christian historians, but there is little debate that josephus did know of jesus."

uh yeah the whole Jesus thing could have been added at anytime in the revision and rewriting of the bible that certainly doesn't make it fact.

However, it is significant that Origen, writing in about AD 240, fails to mention it, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James, which occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (bk. 20, ch. 9). Origen also states that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ" (Cels, bk. 1, ch. 47) "he did not accept Jesus as Christ" (Comm. Matt. X.17), and "he says nothing of the wonderful deeds that our Lord did" (Stromateis II.2) but the testimonium declares Jesus to be Christ. Starting in the 17th century, this has given rise to the suggestion presented by Protestant philologists that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in the present form.

Many modern historians reject the passage as an interpolation, on other grounds, for several reasons inherent in the text. In its context, passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and thus the thread of continuity, of "sad calamities," is interrupted by this passage. The context, without the testimonium passage, reads:

So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome.

The passage 3.3 also fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorff, 2002. It is also argued that "He was [the] Christ" can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian; he characterized his patron Vespasian as the foretold Messiah.

The deepest concerns about the authenticity of the passage were succinctly expressed by John Dominic Crossan, in The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Peasant (1991, ISBN 0060616296): "The problem here is that Josephus' account is too good to be true, too confessional to be impartial, too Christian to be Jewish." Three passages stood out: "if it be lawful to call him a man . . . He was [the] Christ . . . for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." These seem directly to address Christological debates of the early 4th century. Consequently, most secular historians (and even many Christian scholars) dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation.

The entire passage is also found in one manuscript of Josephus' earlier work, The Jewish War. Lower Criticism has concluded that this is an interpolation as other extant manuscripts do not contain it, and reflect the modern standard text of The Jewish War.

Besides that...If he did believe in Christ don't you think he would of dedicated at least a chapter........not a paragraph that when you read it in whole, you can see how it breaks the flow of this thought.......He was talking about wars, then [insert], then talks about wars...If you take out the inserted paragraph, it flows more naturally....

Originally posted by Bardock42
why did you post that twice?

sorry, didn't mean to post it twice. Here is the real second reference.

Antiquities 18.3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Deb - Your right about people thinking there are interpolations. There's a good article about what may be true and what may not here: http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/josephus.html.

Take the middle ground, Josephus didn't accept Jesus as Christ, but he did acknowledge his existence and the existence of followers at the time he wrote the passage.

Your link doesn't work....... 🙁

Originally posted by debbiejo
Your link doesn't work....... 🙁

OK, try this one

http://tinyurl.com/ha375

* believing in Christ is tantamount of saying, you also believe in the Bible because the true Christ is what the Bible says... 😉

No, it isn't. I believe that Christ exists, has existed and does love us, and does share some of the characteristics that are in the bible... and that are in most other religions god figures.

I do put much stock in a lot of what the bible says, because human's have a habit of embellishing, lieing, being dishonest, etc. Most of the modern day translations originated from King James's rewriting of it.

As for finding the original bible in it's spirit, sorry, I can't read Ancient Hebrew.

😉

Originally posted by Bardock42
Because the Bible ios most probably a work of fiction. I like to read Batman Comics, that doesn't mean I believe that Batman exists, and that everything stated in teh Comics is true.

Anderson....that's such a much nicer arguement than mine....mine seems to be very rude, doesn't it?

* nice logic, bro, but Batman is not about faith... 😉

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So let me get this straight... You're validifying the holiness and correctness of the Bible by using... the Bible?

Anyone else find a serious problem with that?

* no problem about that, bro... it's correct and i ask what do you find the Bible that is wrong?

Originally posted by NineCoronas
No, it isn't. I believe that Christ exists, has existed and does love us, and does share some of the characteristics that are in the bible... and that are in most other religions god figures.

I do put much stock in a lot of what the bible says, because human's have a habit of embellishing, lieing, being dishonest, etc. Most of the modern day translations originated from King James's rewriting of it.

As for finding the original bible in it's spirit, sorry, I can't read Ancient Hebrew.

😉

* we have technology nowadays to help us translate ancient Hebrew writings... 😉

" we have technology nowadays to help us translate ancient Hebrew writings... "

Right, because I have access to that. 🙄

* if you really want, they are many ways... if you don't, they are many reasons...

Originally posted by peejayd
* if you really want, they are many ways... if you don't, they are many reasons...
Procure me access then, with reliable technology.