NJO Luke vs Ragnos

That is untrue. Bane never mentions the Ancient Sith. And for the last time: It doesn't matter how he did it, he did it and it's written down in black and where. Where did the Ancients use the Force Storm? In the book of Anger, it was apparent it was a creation of Sidious and Bane NEVER ONCE mentions the Ancients. That's shooting your argument in the foot. And I'm afraid I do have evidence from the sourcebooks, and books, and comics. And exar Kun was a naturally talented and powerful Jedi, Sadow's notes didn't make him strong over night.

I want the quote on this 'frightening' grasp of the force.

Funny, attack on the JEdi temple? Which is why...the Jedi temple wasn't located on Coruscant and there were FOUR JEDI FIGHTING on Coruscant. You cna dispute thaT? Try. The comic shows them arriving on world and says only a few Jedi fight, led by Memit.

Naga killed Ludo in the opening of the engagement. And no, according to KJA's own writings, an electrical weapon destroyed the star. And if Naga could use a force storm, he'd have no problem.

DE sourcebook and future sources state: Sidious had mastered all aspects of the force, knew all the powers and techniques of the Sith and Jedi, all known, previously unknown and forgotten, and invented new techniques. Safe to say his knowledge is greater than Marka's by knowledge of Jedi abilities alone. You're the one twsiting canon here: Says directly in the sourcebook he knew what he did, case closed.

Tavion used a sceptre big surprise, a sceptre designed for that purpose and I'm STILL waiting for the world, NOT the individual site. And just try pulling out every quote from the Ancient Sith. But you better be able to support them with citations in actual canonical sources from narrarators. Apparently Kreia goes but Yoda's own POV cannot? You'd be hard rpessed to find any quotes on the Ancient Sith themselves...they;re never called gods for one...and no quotes comparing them to "The manifestation of the Dark side", the "Titan", the "Divinity." etc.

That is untrue. Bane never mentions the Ancient Sith. And for the last time: It doesn't matter how he did it, he did it and it's written down in black and where. Where did the Ancients use the Force Storm? In the book of Anger, it was apparent it was a creation of Sidious and Bane NEVER ONCE mentions the Ancients. That's shooting your argument in the foot. And I'm afraid I do have evidence from the sourcebooks, and books, and comics.

LMAO, sourcebooks count apparently (your words, not mine).

So okay. In the Tales of the Jedi companion, it describes (in story format) a "Force Storm" as "this is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. It allows a Jedi (both light and dark) to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force."

So wait, there goes your "Sidious is the best because of one attack that others can replicate" logic again.

You even tried to argue that Sidious "created" the Force Storm when it's referenced in a sourcebook for Jedi and Sith thousands of years prior and was again brought up by Bane. Bane was speaking of an attack by the "ancients." Now who would those be? His dad? Please.

As for Sidious' drain, it is also referenced in the TOTJ Companion (story section) as well as "Transfer Life."

And this is hilarious, I say the following:

Give me a break. Support your argument logically. Don't give me the "zOMG I have these lines from teh sourcebooke!!" and "You have no evidence from ze comics."

And you retort with this crap:

And I'm afraid I do have evidence from the sourcebooks, and books, and comics.

Did you even read the post before you go into your pro-Sidious fanboy jargon? How does this logically support anything?

And exar Kun was a naturally talented and powerful Jedi, Sadow's notes didn't make him strong over night.

And prior to Sadow's notes, he knew 0 sith techniques and was put on his ass by Vodo. After Sadow's notes, he toyed with him, learned "all" of Freedon Nadd's sith magic, was able to freeze the entire senate and unchain Ulic remotely, and then still have time to toy with his former master.

So now Sadow's notes didn't do anything. Appeal to ridicule. Wonderful.

I want the quote on this 'frightening' grasp of the force.

It's right there in KotOR, to the effect of Marka Ragnos had "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp of the dark side."

Funny, attack on the JEdi temple? Which is why...the Jedi temple wasn't located on Coruscant and there were FOUR JEDI FIGHTING on Coruscant. You cna dispute thaT? Try. The comic shows them arriving on world and says only a few Jedi fight, led by Memit.

The comics show the Sith destroying everything and forcing the entire military back to the Senate, where then you see some Jedi coming out of and fighting. Nowhere does the scene involve the entirety of the battle, there is not a single overlooking scene in the book.

And I suppose when the Jedi say "call out the military," you have what? Twin girls and a parapalegic come help them? Please.

Coruscant and Cinnagar with Jedi help were about to fall to mostly an army of illusions from Naga Sadow. Fact. And here you are throwing around belittling irrelevant remarks.

Naga killed Ludo in the opening of the engagement. And no, according to KJA's own writings, an electrical weapon destroyed the star. And if Naga could use a force storm, he'd have no problem.

Weren't you the one that claimed since Naga Sadow didn't use force storm, he didn't know it? Okay, Naga Sadow also didn't use his amulet, does he not know it? The Force Storm is an attack the ancients knew. Fact. Bane implies as much, the Tales of the Jedi companion mentions as much.

And Naga killed Ludo at the opening of the engagement? Are you smoking something? Ludo engaged Naga and both sides sustained damage. Naga specifically sent one of his "doomed ships" crashing into Ludo.

And according to KJA's writings? Point me out the line. Sadow used 2 or 3 different methods of manipulating solar flares and detonating stars, which one was he referring to?

DE sourcebook and future sources state: Sidious had mastered all aspects of the force, knew all the powers and techniques of the Sith and Jedi, all known, previously unknown and forgotten, and invented new techniques. Safe to say his knowledge is greater than Marka's by knowledge of Jedi abilities alone. You're the one twsiting canon here: Says directly in the sourcebook he knew what he did, case closed.

It doesn't say "all that was previously unknown or forgotten," did it? Where did Sidious pull out of his ass the stuff that was destroyed on Ziost or Korriban or the dozens of other Sith worlds?

And more than Marka's by Jedi ability alone? The Unifying force establishes that there are no separations between force abilities. Besides, the Dark Jedi that started the Sith Empire used Jedi techniques. The Sith demonstrated the ability to use telekinesis, to heal with the force, and to use other techniques.

Where did it reference that Sidious knows "all" of the Sith magics, like it referenced for Kun?

Tavion used a sceptre big surprise, a sceptre designed for that purpose

A scepter strong enough to imbue non-force users with the ability to use the force. A scepter that could possibly revive a Sith altogether.

I'm STILL waiting for the world, NOT the individual site.

It specifically states that she drained from Vjun as well as a other sites across the galaxy, hence why you go on a goose chase, or did you not play JK:A?

The only time we see her absorbing the force from an individual site was the Temples on Yavin. That's a pretty damn large site, in all honesty.

Apparently Kreia goes but Yoda's own POV cannot?

And you still don't read.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You have Kreia's quote on this; is that fact?

Nice job on reading.

You'd be hard rpessed to find any quotes on the Ancient Sith themselves...they;re never called gods for one...and no quotes comparing them to "The manifestation of the Dark side", the "Titan", the "Divinity." etc.

According to your own logic, if Sidious doesn't demonstrate the ability, he dosn't have it or can't apply it. Well then, Sidious' completely illogical statement of knowing all force powers and he doesn't apply a good deal of them. So I can assume he doesn't have them? That's what you were doing for the Ancient Sith.

You are caught in your own hypocrisy. If you try to worm out of this one, I'll gladly point out your damn lie.

And wonderful, you can use these great hyperbolic terms when he was defeated by a "half-trained farmboy," Again, from DE.

So, TOTJ sourcebook was later retconned or there's a contradiction here. Not the first time. And yeah, sourcebooks count, according to Dan Wallace, as much as books in story info-I've posted links proving it before- as they both are approved by editors...and also, waiting for where Bane said anything on the subject.

The Jedi are fighting from the start...four Jedi. That's it. And about to fall? When was THAT mentioned?

Right, because the amulet is the same thing as a fleet destroying attack when your'e under attack...by a fleet! And Ludo dies on what, the second page? Third maybe after he comes back and one panel of fighting before the ship slams into Ludo?

Essential Chronology, written by KJA: Naga Sadow used an electrical weapon on his ship etc etc....and in The Sith War, when Exar says the weapon on the ship destroyed a star.

Take it up with the canon: It did say "all known, unknown and forgotten techniques and invents new ones at his pleasure." And nope, Morichrio and Malacia are Jedi arts...Luke shoots down Vergere's theories in Dark Nest.

Sidious could imbue people with the power of the dark side too and Tavion was the one who apparently discovered the idea of imbuing, considering it couldn't do it at the drop of the hat and needed absorbed energy. And all Of Vjun, or Vader's castle?

Kreia is going on what? Hearsay? Her beliefs? I'd trust Yoda over Kreia any day.

Sorry, but Sidious was stated to have those abilities, so that kind of rebuttal doesn't fly. Notice in De, Luke is described as a divinity, incredibly powerful and a titan? And the 'purest light' in the galaxy?
And know, you can't assume a thing because it states he does know them, whereas there's...what exactly stating what the Ancients knew?

Have you read DE, Illustrious? The final battle between Luke and Palpatine consists of the greatest power we have ever seen in SW, they were approaching DBZ levels of power here...moving around as light and dark flashes faster than the eye can see, shockwaves killing bystanders out of the sheer power of the fight....force sensitives feeling it all the way across the galaxy. It was not just Luke vs Palpatine, it was effectively a battle between the light and dark sides of the force.

Do you honestly see the ancient sith pulling *this* kind of power out of their ass? I dont.

One thing I need to put out:

Essential Chronology, written by KJA: Naga Sadow used an electrical weapon on his ship etc etc....and in The Sith War, when Exar says the weapon on the ship destroyed a star.

The NEC says otherwise. Check page 9, on the right side of "The Great Hyperspace War - 5000 BBY", it says this exactly:

"Sadow made one last sorcerous gambit. He flew his warship between a tight binary star, the Dena rii Nova, and used Sith powers to manipulate the solar flares that destroyed the Republic ships in his wake".

Seems Sadow did know how to manipulate solar flares, or whatever.

To quote the original EC, he used 'terrible Sith technology'...and didn't Kun say the ship allowed Sadow to destroy a star?

It was probably a combination of both, good find though.In the DS SBK it says: but he once again used the electric weapon attached to his ship, this time on the nearby Denarii stars...and Aleema used the ship to do the same

In the DS SBK it says: but he once again used the electric weapon attached to his ship, this time on the nearby Denarii stars...and Aleema used the ship to do the same

Darkside Sourcebook wasn't written with Kevin J. Anderson. The New Essential Chronolgy, however, was. Also note the DS Sourcebook was published in 2001, whereas the NEC was in 2005.

It doesn't matter who writes what, LFL goes over and takes care of everything....KJA's involvement this time, according to Dan, was what he'd written for the first chronology, in 2000

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It doesn't matter who writes what, LFL goes over and takes care of everything....KJA's involvement this time, according to Dan, was what he'd written for the first chronology, in 2000

Okay, then LFL decided it was alright, thus the NECs standpoint becomes canon because of it's date. And, in the first chronology, did he not write about TOTJ? Of course he did, he wrote TOTJ.

Yeah, but we have one instance there, with others...and the Primus Guuld occurance was written by KJA as technology, at least...plus, Kun's on the record..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, but we have one instance there, with others...and the Primus Guuld occurance was written by KJA as technology, at least...plus, Kun's on the record..

NEC published 2005, the New Essential Chronology, the updated version of the Essential Chronology, therefore NEC > EC. Also, Dan himself said KJA was "limited by what he wrote in the EC", well he wrote about the Dena rii Nova, too then. And, like I've been saying NEC > EC.

Also, Primus Goluud was a different battle. That was when Gav turned on Naga, so I'm sure it could be his ship, however, later it says on the Dena rii Nova, that he used his own Sith powers.

And, Kun only claimed [his ship] can blow up stars. Okay, we know it can thanks to Aleema, however, that's all he said about it. Not that Sadow "required it to blow up a star, or do this with a star, etc.", and the NEC points out that he can do it without the ship.

I could point out Sith powers could be taken another way, and that other sources-as we've discussed off forums- have pointed to the electrical weapon thing...

If you have a point to make, do make an effort to prove up. Motoko's provided some nice points here from what I gather, and you're just saying "We discussed it on forums".

No, no, Motoko and I have been discussing this off the forums. On page five of the EC, which was written by KJA, it says he destroyed Primus Guuld with the ship, as well as in the DSBK, that he used an electrical weapon to destroy the star.

If KJA ever responds, I'll be glad to ask him for clarification, though

Ah, my mistake then. *Was barely skimming anyways*

NP.

Yes, we actually are discussing it on IM, however, whatever the EC states means absolutely zilch, I don't understand how the older Chronology somehow can be considered canon, especially in this case, as the New Essential Chronology, which is updated.

Think of it as this -- updated draft of a script is more official than an older draft.

As for the Darkside Sourcebook, as stated, it was written in 2001, and by two guys who I don't even know. There is only three things that I know about the Darkside Sourcebook:

1.) That it is a RPG sourcebook.
2.) It was written four years prior to the NEC.
3.) And, that it had no involvement/wasn't written by KJA.

Okay though, let's take the second thing I know about the DS Sourcebook. The EC was written in 2000, so I could see why the DS Sourcebook would claim about Sadow using technology wherever, since it was published in 2001.

Now, given that, the NEC was published four years later, hence it is the "New Essential Chronology". The Darkside Sourcebook most likely was taking what was written by KJA in the EC, and using it. However, since the NEC is published at a later date, is an updated version of the EC -- the NEC is higher level of canon than both the EC, and DS Sourcebook on Sadow and his said Sith powers.

However, 'Sith powers' could be taken to mean their technology. A stretch, true...still, this is an inconsistency and it's not been mentioned again. KJA did write, when he had control, that Sadow used the weapon at PRomuus Guuld, uncontradicted by the NEC...
And once more, RPG sourcebooks are on the same level as anything else in issues, and Dan himself admitted there were some issues in the NEC on his blog, I'll ask him and KJA about this if K. ever responds.

And Naga himself says he's going to make use of the ship's remaining power before he flies at the Denarii I believe, not to mention Aleema does the same with the ship on a more destructive scale....this is ambiguous indeed, though we're not gonna reach anything on it. I'll consider this a loose end till I can get some kind of confirmation

Originally posted by Lightsnake
However, 'Sith powers' could be taken to mean their technology. A stretch, true...still, this is an inconsistency and it's not been mentioned again.

All I can say is "...".

Actually, I can say more. It says in a "sorcerous gambit". Sorcerous is relating to magic of course -- which relates in Star Wars as what we have came to know as "The Force".

KJA did write, when he had control, that Sadow used the weapon at PRomuus Guuld, uncontradicted by the NEC...

And? He used it at Primus Goluud, which was before the Dena rii Nova. We know his ship can blow up stars, Aleema does it. However, the NEC states he used his Sith powers. Since when is "technology" and "powers" the same thing?

Also, it says in the NEC that "around the flare-active red giant star".

And once more, RPG sourcebooks are on the same level as anything else in issues, and Dan himself admitted there were some issues in the NEC on his blog, I'll ask him and KJA about this if K. ever responds.

And? Look (assuming X, and Y are conflicting issues):

Script Draft A claims X.
Script Draft B claims Y.
Script Draft B was written after Script A.

Which script is more official?

And Naga himself says he's going to make use of the ship's remaining power before he flies at the Denarii I believe, not to mention Aleema does the same with the ship on a more destructive scale....this is ambiguous indeed, though we're not gonna reach anything on it. I'll consider this a loose end till I can get some kind of confirmation [/B]

Agreed, I'll say we'll wait for word, however, for the time being I'm pretty sure we can conclude that NEC > EC/DS.

Not entirely, as Dan left a few things out and made some errors. And Naga himself even says he'll make use of the remaining power they have left.

Problem is, the NEC does lack some clarification and gives almost zero elbaoration on Primus Guuld, so the former sources could stand. I stand by my theory it was the ship with help from Sadow himself, but I propose we let the issue rest here till I can get some kind of confirmation, with the contradictions abound here