Being "The most powerful of powerful" can imply a numebr of things. And were did it say he was the most powerful of the ancient sith? I thought it just "Most powerful of powerful." That could mean he was the powerful of empires. The most powerful of anything really. So still, until their is a quote saying that Ragnos was the most powerful force user ever, or even of his time, all we can do is assume hes the best force user based off of context. Thus, hes an unknown.
Being "The most powerful of powerful" can imply a numebr of things.
Yes, I'm sure it can. I don't know what English dictionary you go by. And, it was "the most powerful of the most powerful".
And were did it say he was the most powerful of the ancient sith?
Tales of the Jedi comics maybe? Omniscent narrator perhaps? Have you been paying attention at all?
I thought it just "Most powerful of powerful." That could mean he was the powerful of empires.
No.
The most powerful of anything really.
No, he was the most powerful of "the most powerful", I'm sure he was the most powerful chef of his era, right?
So still, until their is a quote saying that Ragnos was the most powerful force user ever, or even of his time, all we can do is assume hes the best force user based off of context. Thus, hes an unknown.
There is a quote, you just choose to argue it. "Ruled with an iron fist", "the strongest Sith rules", "The most powerful of the most powerful".
[sarcasm] No, nothing we know from Tales of the Jedi, and later sources imply at all that he was the most powerful of the Ancient Sith. [/sarcasm]
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Yes, I'm sure it can. I don't know what English dictionary you go by. And, it was "the most powerful of the most powerful".Tales of the Jedi comics maybe? Omniscent narrator perhaps? Have you been paying attention at all?
No.
No, he was the most powerful of "the most powerful", I'm sure he was the most powerful chef of his era, right?
There is a quote, you just choose to argue it. "Ruled with an iron fist", "the strongest Sith rules", "The most powerful of the most powerful".
[sarcasm] No, nothing we know from Tales of the Jedi, and later sources imply at all that he was the most powerful of the Ancient Sith.
[/sarcasm]
lol, your first reply, I had just forgotten to add te second "The".
and still you have chosen to ignore the fact that it never says the most powerful force user ever. You have just repeated or, as I said earlier, gone in circles, with the same 2 quotes over and over, which are still completely debateable. Now get me some real proof or go home.
Originally posted by Blaxican Style
lol, your first reply, I had just forgotten to add te second "The".and still you have chosen to ignore the fact that it never says the most powerful force user ever. You have just repeated or, as I said earlier, gone in circles, with the same 2 quotes over and over, which are still completely debateable. Now get me some real proof or go home.
Oh, you must be right, Blaxican. Ragnos must have been an incredible bureaucrat and the most powerful of most powerful realitors on Korriban. In a warlike society, where he decapitated the last Dark Lord of the Sith, he must have gotten by with mediocre force skills and horrible melee talent. Everyone said he had "frightening" level of poweer in the force because he was just really ugly. They left him alone on his deathbed and never ever challenged him or defeated him because he was not any stronger than Sadow or Kressh. When Ludo thinks that Ragnos spirit is going to crush Sadow like a bug, he's just being delusional from that brick to the head.
When Ragnos' sceptre drained the force from entire planets and supercharged a nonforce sensitive, that's just because he was an incredible bullshitter. It has no reflection on his personal level of power.
Yes, you win this with logic, Blaxican.
Few things:
In the battle, Ragnos actually cut Simus down. Simus later had his head removed.
Simus wasn't a Dark Lord of the Sith. Like Ragnos, he was a competitor.
Ludo Kressh is a sycophant to Ragnos, of course he'd think the great dark lord could crush Sadow, when Sadow pretty much told Ragnos off. "He immediately cries "Master, forgive us our battles, I fought in your name!"
I also wouldn't call the scepter 'supercharging'...most of the cultists weren't pinnacles of strength and Tavion only percentages of absorbed energy expelled from the sceptre.
Was it ever said how sudden or lingering ragnos's death was? Was it ever said the other Sith knew he was dying?
It's unknown how secure the position of DLOTS is. Nadd clearly felt he was the stornger thanb his opponent, but left in a huff rather than challenge someone...Sadow clearly detested Ragnos but said he obeyed him "As all must obey the Dark Lord."
I am at work and can't argue the rest of the comics, but let me address this:
Ludo Kressh is a sycophant to Ragnos, of course he'd think the great dark lord could crush Sadow, when Sadow pretty much told Ragnos off. "He immediately cries "Master, forgive us our battles, I fought in your name!"
Firstly, Sadow didn't "tell Ragnos off". He was pretty respectable considering. It's not like he pwned Ragnos' spirit and kept on fighting.
Second, Ludo was Ragnos' avid fan of the two. Why do you think that is? We see that Ludo is vicious, evil, tempermental, and greedy. Why would he bow before Ragnos? Because he likes him? No, that doesn't cut it. It was fear. Fear drove Ludo to beg for forgiveness. And when Sadow took a knee before Ragnos' spirit just like Ludo, that was submission. They were inferior, and they knew it.
And Naga basically asked Ragnos what was so important that he couldn't let them solve it themselves and immediately when Marka vanishes, he says contemptuously that it takes more than a ghost's words to make him forget when Ludo approaches him with peace.
Ludo only seems as such around Naga...he's actually the more noble of the two, considering. Ludo's main concern is preserving the empire. He even snaps at Sadow he'll never take part in destroying everything he knows and his main goal in stopping Sadow is for the Sith Empire and destroying the traitor. I wouldn't call what Ludo feels for Ragnos fear either...he shows reverence over him at the funeral and over his corpse.
Ludo is also an avid traditionalist. There's most certainly a lot of history between the Sith we're not privy to
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Oh, you must be right, Blaxican. Ragnos must have been an incredible bureaucrat and the most powerful of most powerful realitors on Korriban. In a warlike society, where he decapitated the last Dark Lord of the Sith, he must have gotten by with mediocre force skills and horrible melee talent. Everyone said he had "frightening" level of poweer in the force because he was just really ugly. They left him alone on his deathbed and never ever challenged him or defeated him because he was not any stronger than Sadow or Kressh. When Ludo thinks that Ragnos spirit is going to crush Sadow like a bug, he's just being delusional from that brick to the head.When Ragnos' sceptre drained the force from entire planets and supercharged a nonforce sensitive, that's just because he was an incredible bullshitter. It has no reflection on his personal level of power.
Yes, you win this with logic, Blaxican.
of course I win. After all..I'm me.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Naga basically asked Ragnos what was so important that he couldn't let them solve it themselves and immediately when Marka vanishes, he says contemptuously that it takes more than a ghost's words to make him forget when Ludo approaches him with peace.Ludo only seems as such around Naga...he's actually the more noble of the two, considering. Ludo's main concern is preserving the empire. He even snaps at Sadow he'll never take part in destroying everything he knows and his main goal in stopping Sadow is for the Sith Empire and destroying the traitor. I wouldn't call what Ludo feels for Ragnos fear either...he shows reverence over him at the funeral and over his corpse.
Ludo is also an avid traditionalist. There's most certainly a lot of history between the Sith we're not privy to
Yes, Sadow likely badmouthed him (Like I said, I can't double check right now). That doesn't mean he didn't bow here:
If Sadow was really that defiant and powerful enough to where he didn't care about the opinion and power of Ragnos' spirit, he wouldn't have bowed. In fact, Sadow's all show and defiance and being individualistic just to spite Ludo until Ragnos' spirit shows up and suddenly he's on his knee side by side with his worst possible enemy.
If that isn't fear, I must be crazy.
You said it yourself; Sadow doesn't care for Ragnos' words or his ideals. But when Ragnos' spirit was there, he took a knee. And keep in mind that with one of Sadow's amulets, Kun destroyed Nadd's spirit, which had previously been stronger than him (By a good margin, too).
And while it'd be nice to say Ludo's noble and nice, the fact is he's a sith lord; they don't get to the top without being manipulative, evil, vicious, and power hungry. That's established fact.
However, there's still the fact that the other Sith respect Ragnos and his word enough to bow...Ragnos led them for a century after all. The moment Ragnos is actually gone, Naga is back toh is spiteful self...if Sadow didn't bow, the other Sith may have butchered him on the spot.
And Nadd's spirit's power is rather up for debate. Unlike much older spirits, he was incapable of directly affecting living beings. He admits this in the Freedon Nadd Uprising. Nadd was known for guiding his descendants and manipulating Kun.
I'm not saying Ludo's not a vicious, power hungry bastard, but he was a conservative traditionalist and always thinks of the good of the empire.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
However, there's still the fact that the other Sith respect Ragnos and his word enough to bow...Ragnos led them for a century after all. The moment Ragnos is actually gone, Naga is back toh is spiteful self...if Sadow didn't bow, the other Sith may have butchered him on the spot.
The Sith are motivated by power and greed. If they bowed to Ragnos, it's because he could crush them, not because of respect. If the other sith lords really respected Ragnos and his rule, they would not have sided with Sadow at all, for fear of disrespecting tradition, as you say. You have a council of twenty some lords, all motivated by their own self interest and power... what use do they have for traditions?
And Nadd's spirit's power is rather up for debate. Unlike much older spirits, he was incapable of directly affecting living beings. He admits this in the Freedon Nadd Uprising. Nadd was known for guiding his descendants and manipulating Kun.
Except that Nadd not only force assaults Vodo, he killed Ommin, used the force to trap Kun, and then used the force to heal Kun. Obviously, Nadd could DO things as a 400 + year old spirit.
I'm not saying Ludo's not a vicious, power hungry bastard, but he was a conservative traditionalist and always thinks of the good of the empire.
Yes, and King Leopold of Belgium went to church. Dracul was a staunch catholic and traditionalist nobleman who secured Romania against the east. What's your point? They were all three self serving, greedy, and manipulative bastards who wouldn't bow to anyone if they could help it.
Naga was a firebrand whose experiments were looked down upon. The comic describes Ludo as carefully observing the old rituals. As far as anyone was concerned, Marka was still the great DL who ruled for a century. Sadow only became DL by playing on the Sith Lords' fears...and even then, Ludo was skeptical.
When Nadd assaulted Vodo it was because the both of them were connected to Kun, and Ommin at the time was already dying, with his life support severed he was a boneless blob on the floor. And Nadd allowed the temple to collapse on Kun, Kun let the dark side into him with his own acceptance, Nadd was urging him to do this.
Ludo is practically bowing to Ragnos's corpse as is, just like an Egyptian would treat the pharaoh.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
If the other sith lords really respected Ragnos and his rule, they would not have sided with Sadow at all, for fear of disrespecting tradition, as you say.
Well it could be argued that Sadow manipulated and brainwashed them and that if they knew his true intentions, would not have sided with him.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Few things:
In the battle, Ragnos actually cut Simus down. Simus later had his head removed.
Simus wasn't a Dark Lord of the Sith. Like Ragnos, he was a competitor.
Ludo Kressh is a sycophant to Ragnos, of course he'd think the great dark lord could crush Sadow, when Sadow pretty much told Ragnos off. "He immediately cries "Master, forgive us our battles, I fought in your name!"
I also wouldn't call the scepter 'supercharging'...most of the cultists weren't pinnacles of strength and Tavion only percentages of absorbed energy expelled from the sceptre.
Was it ever said how sudden or lingering ragnos's death was? Was it ever said the other Sith knew he was dying?
It's unknown how secure the position of DLOTS is. Nadd clearly felt he was the stornger thanb his opponent, but left in a huff rather than challenge someone...Sadow clearly detested Ragnos but said he obeyed him "As all must obey the Dark Lord."
Lightsnake, I love how you argue directly against the comics, against GL, and against anything that makes Sidious look like shit. Simus had his head removed? Wonderful, show me the source to that. Oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't exist, because Ragnos decapitated Simus, and through pure sith magic, Simus was able to live as a head, nice try though.. Next.. Yes Simus was the previous DLOTS, nice try again. Next, Sadow never told Ragnos off, quit lying to yourself. Next, the scepter did exactly what Janus said it did, don't bother downplaying facts. Next.. Nadd couldn't defeat the current dark lord, which is why he went to Onderon and conquered it, as a Dark Jedi/Sith Lord. And finally, Sadow detested Ragnos but he feared him and respected him. Nice job arguing with facts lightsnake.