Marka Ragnos vs DN Luke and DE Sidious

No, before they actually started dueling, I never said Luke was weak, i'm merely stating that Sidious definitely would've sensed Luke and before they even started dueling, launching an Amulet Blast, draining ability and instakill, would suffice to destroy Luke. Honestly, your other logic is reasonable, but this argument is absurd, it defies all logic and its contradicted by the fact that huge sources of knowledge were lost. I believe that most other Sidious fanboys would agree with that.

Yes DE calls him that, because he was the strongest Jedi within DE.

Yeah, try arguing that the canon is correct...and quite frankly: Sidious chose for it to be a lightsaber duel. Plain and simple.

Once more, you're mistaking Luke as weak...he'd already been learning a great amount of Sith secrets and he's been described as in the narration as incredibly powerful, period.

Damn lightsnake, give it up.. Sidious sucks and your arguments are wrong.

Sorry, just to pick up a point of grammar here (that being my profession):

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Again, "all known, forgotten, and previously unknown" does not mean "all known, all forgotten, and all previously unknown.""

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Sorry, but yes it does. It's very poor English to think it does not. In a list like that, the 'all' clearly refers to all three articles. Illustrious, you are way off- you most certainly would not put 'all' in front of all three, that's ludicrous, and it would be entirely gramatically incorrect to read the sentence with only the first part being covered by 'all'. The 'all' preceeding the list applies to all articles within the list; you would have to start a second list to separate from the 'all'. I can only assume you are being willfully obstructive.

I mean, that's pretty basic stuff. "All French and German" people does not mean 'All French and some German'. it means all of both, as it quite evident. You would actively have to insert 'some' into the list for it to mean anything other than 'all' for each bit.

If you want to knock the point down logically, feel free, but trying to do it like that is spectacularly feeble.

Considering that the Most Powerful quote was written after DE was included, the quite frankly the same thing applies, Marka Ragnos the Most Powerful of the Most Powerful, your using one quote from a comic, so logically i can use this same quote, its fair to incoporate not only the Ancient Sith's era but the eras that succeeded it.

Sorry, this isn't Star Wars according to DE. The quote is indirectly contradicted by the fact that heaps of knowledge was lost, and forever lost meaning unable to be recovered, so unless your going to start saying Sidious re-invented atleast a thousand years worth of things, then stfu.

Personally I think it is a bit odd to think that Sidious knew every secret that ever existed, ever. Even if Sidious is King Sith, you gotta have a little mystery out there. Creatively, it's a bad deal to make one thing the uber God of all.

Still, that's just my creative opinion; I am sure you can all argue to death what the sources say.

Heaps of knowledge, lost after the Hyperspace Wars. After that... well, knownledge can only be regained and refound.

People like Qui-Gon and Anakin rediscovered the old ghost trick. I'm sure Palpatine rediscovered some techniques as well. Not only that, Bane's Order had 1000 long years to prepare for the RotS. I'm sure quite a bit of knowledge was gained in that time.

Palpatine also had something going for him: he had the ancient spirits on Korriban helping him out when he was younger, as well as access to stores of knowledge like the Sith holocrons....and actually, it's a quote from a source book. And for the last time, Deception, just read the quote.

He WAS the most powerful of the powerful...NOW he is dead. And etc etc etc, Jori Daragon, Gav Daragon arrive etc....there's nothing to imply whatsoever this quote applied to the entire span of history

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the description applies to that era and that era alone. The now he is dead is a dead giveaway.

I clearly don't see any mentioning of a certain era in this statement. What I see is Kreia more than 1,000 years after his death still calling him the most powerful (which puts him above Exar Kun) and Luke estimating that it would need the combined power of all Jedi in the Academy to try and stop a living Ragnos which puts him above DE Sidious.

Except the movies don't contradict the aforementioned.

Except we see parts of Sidious lightning just hitting the air behind Vader which makes the assumption that Sidious redirected the complete attack at Vader false. Not to mention that Vaders life support suit was vunerable against force lightning and the full power of Sidious attack would have brought him down almost instantly.

Of course not. But Dor is still one a Sith Lord and Naga is described as preserving his life as do the other Sith Lords

All other Sith Lords. And you still ignored the obvious gap in terms of power between Ragnos - then Sadow and Kressh - and the rest of the Sith Lords.

The funny thing is how you try to put some crap about 'his era'...where is 'his era' mentioned? And later on it said he'd mastered every technique of the Jedi and Sith. Along with every aspect of the forc.e Canon>Your opinion

What "canon" source do you have, huh ? I told you once and I tell you again: The in universe perspective matters and in universe historians writing down stuff aren't infallible. And you did notice how the DS Sourcebook will all that stuff said still puts Sidious below Ragnos and the information on the characters isn't canon anyway because it doesn't belong to the "storyline".

So Exar knew Quey'Tek too? Good for him. Sidious's power is described as 'godlike'. Better for him

And Exar Kun is descriped by the narrator to have mastered every aspect of Sith Magic and have gained more knowledge that he could ever use. And if you want to hang on to your "godlike" because you don't have any other argument left. The following people were descriped as "godlike" too: Waru (Chrystal Star), Ronderu lij Kummar and Grievous (The Story of Grievous), the Dark Jedi that founded the Sith Empire (all sources), the Ancient Sith (by Kreia in KotoR 2), Revan and his Jedi fighting on Cathar (by Juhani in KotoR).

Ahhh, irrelevant misdirection much? "Umm, he only pried the weapons from their hands personally, was stated to have faced them in combat...but he didn't kill them!"

Umm...we see him getting his ass handed in lightsaber duels to Mace, Yoda and much worse DE Luke. We never see him fighting Jedi in any source and you're using his own statement. Even if he did fight Jedi - the most powerful ones were already killed during ROTS.

Exagerrating Sidious's knowledge? Canon states he'd mastered every aspect of the force in all its guises. Underestimation much, Nai?

Yes "canon" like a WotC sourcebook. Wow. Why do you still refuse to accept that he couldn't have gained knowledge that was completely destroyed (Ossus, Malachor V, Veeshas Tuwan) or plundered (Korriban, Yavin 4). To make it even more funny he isn't able to use the Jedi Holocron he pocesses in DE a statement he gives himself when handing Leia the holocron. So how would he know everything if some of the sources for knowledge weren't accessible for him. Right answer: He can't. And that labels the statement hyperbole.

96 planets, Nai...considerably less than 'hundreds'

Oh. Your own ideas are the absolute and infallible truth now ?
Except for the fact that some idiot here can't use math, huh?
4 Sith Lords when each of them rules "dozens" of planets = 4 x 24 = 96. Correct. But you said you included Kressh and Sadow (+48 planets). Oh my....144. And you said you included another two Sith Lords (oh my...now we have 192 planets already). And this is still missing all planets ruled by Ragnos and Simus directly who were after all Dark Lords. And uuuuh...24 is the lowest possible number there can be even more.

And since you know jack shit (as it's always the case when Sidious isn't mentioned). Have a look at this:

The planets I marked with green are Arkania, Ambria, Korriban and the Cron Cluster (part of the Auril Sector which belonged to the Sith Empire). Those planets belonged to the ancient Sith Empire. Now have a look at the space in between them and tell me again they didn't have control over "hundreds" of planets. I'd say "thousands" or even "millions" would be quite more plausible.

Luke found an intact library on Ossus, point being?

Point being that Luke found it and Sidious obviously didn't. And one intact library compared to the entire planet filled with knowledge ?

And Apparently Kun not feeling powerful Force users was retconned. See: Complete Locations, states he had plundered Yavin 4 and bedecked his chambers with ancient Sith heirlooms...and Ragnos's memory was fine in JA.

Oh great. "Complete Locations" which only deals with information about the worlds / events displayed in the movies ? Or are you talking about a different book ? And it contradicts KotoR as well as the JA trilogy.
And how would you be able to judge that Ragnos memory was completely intact ? By the 5 sentences we see him speaking 5,000 years after his death ? Yeah, right.

Great, honor...from a murderous, backstabbing race that happily subjugates a primitive people, that makes so much sense.

Wow. SW according to Lightsnake. You mean the Dark Jedi who dominated the Sith and all others by sheer power ? You're talking about the governing Sith who dominated everyone else by power ? You're talking about the Sith who duelled for the Dark Lord title ? You're talking out of your ass again ?

Where was that 'we' referring to Nihilius?

She say that the ancient Sith would make all "people from our era look like children". Period.

hat's Kirrek, how about Coruscant? when the illusions vanished, the fight was pretty much over for the Sith.

Yes. When the illusions vanished because of Gav's betrayal. That's like saying Sidious Battle Meditation and the Imperial Fleet over Endor must have been weak because they lost against the Rebels when Vader threw Sidious into the reactor core.

That's all great. Were the shockwaves of their duel felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy? No? Okay then. Were the shockwaves of their duel causing imperials to drop down dead? No? Ok then

All force sensitive in the galaxy ? Causing imperials to drop down dead ? Where did you get that stuff from ? And no. It was just felt by dead persons one of them coming back from the grave to stop it.

"The force is trembling...images...what have I forseen?" Nothing about Ragnos, in fact, all Odan says is he dreamt of the Sith Empire.

You have Ragnos in the very same picture. How can somebody be THIS ignorant.

According to said author, he was working from documents given to him by LFL.

And according to the NEC it was written in universe by a historian. Fallible third party source. And said author didn't site LFL documents as source of his opinion. Great. You have nothing.

And Luke's big speech is about stopping Ragnos from being ressurected...and look at the nice hypocrisy, Luke's an expert on the ancient Sith?

Luke:
"If Ragnos is resurrected...., we would need all of our strength to stop him." Original source > you. You mean the same Luke that studied DE Sidious entire knowledge, as well as a holocron coming from Kun's days ? Let me think....yes I guess he knows enough about the ancient Sith.

Academy compared to every Jedi who lived? Or the entire lightside of the force-which'lls till be the lightside of the force no matter how many times you try to deny it?- Ok then.

All those lies and hyperboles. How I've missed them. It took one dying Jedi to stop Sidious from taking over Anakin's body it took 2,5 Jedi to seperate him from his power. Your talking out of your ass again.

Sorry, Nai, but I'm taken the written canon word over yours

No you take that what you want to have over anything else, as we have all seen in your famous "NEC supports Sidious = NEC > all, NEC supports Ancients = NEC < piece of sh*t" argument. Inconsistency much ? Yes ? Thanks.

That's because grammar appears lost on you, Nai. I'll take an LFL author's opinion over yours any day of the week. And Kreia knew Palpatine personally?

Except the novelization disproves you. Comes again.

Once you're Dark Lord, you're Dark Lord for life. why do you think Freedon Nadd left the Sith order? Why were the Sith lords finally forced to murder Dathka Graush? After the asencion ritual, all others obey you, period. There's nothing to hint of further duels, especially from a guy who enjoyed playing the other Sith against eachother.

That's great. The narrarator backs me up on this. And Ragnos knew every Jedi and sith technique and mastered every aspect of the Force? Interesting.

nd where was he described to master every aspect of Sith magic? And you know what's even funnier about all that knowledge? He never did use it as his body died several hours later! And were those people described as godlike by the narraration? And I call BS on that Red Armored Dark Lord called godlike...they were 'treated as gods' by a primitive people.

We see Sidious leave Luke sobbing and broken beforehand, and from yoda's own POV, he'd have died if the fight continued. And the Mace issue is still debateable.

I've posted it before. Sourcebook story info is canon as everything else. He didn't visit those sites as he had something better: the very spirits and holocrons and direct knowledge of the Ancients....and when was he unable to use the holocron in DE? The databank says otherwise.

I was including Kressh and Sadow in that statement. Do the math: Four Sith lords, that's forty eight worlds, with me so far? Next we have...Kressh and Sadow, that's another twenty four, then Dor and Horak...that's 96. With Simus, it's 108. And the Dark Lord of the Sith rules the entirety of the Sith Empire.

Millions? Mmmhmm. I honestly dare you to back that up...show us the Hapes borders, or Chiss space, or the Confederacy borders next.

The great library Odan built? Alright then

And Kun's line about noone being on Yavin contradicts the movies. And complete Locations>Your opinion. And unlike Pall, who was going through major issues with regret, the OLDER spirit of Kun was in full possession of all senses of self. And Ragnos was commanding a cult and Tavion, as well as possessing his sense of self entirely, unlike the whimpering Ajunta.

Right, because ait's so difficult to dominate a primitive people who treat you as gods due to your weapons and force power..

She said 'we'. Nothing about Nihilius who was a whole nother ball game

Point being? Without the illusions, the Sith were screwed...and where did the illusions kill anyone?

DE sourcebook, hyperspace, insider. And proof the duel was felt by Ragnos and not observed, what with, you know, the spirits of the Sith having always resided on Korriban.

Ragnos is never mentioned, nor felt as ODan's nightmares are of the Sith Empire invading.

And according to the author, he wrotes down what LFL gave him. Arguing with LFL Nai?

No, Luke says "It will take all our strength to stop him." No would...the entire mission is stopping ragnos and as mentioned earlier, his forces...and Exar Kun and the like= Ancient Sith Empire? Right

That's great, it took one non-force sensitive to screw over Kun. And said dying Jedi, powered by the force intercepted Palpatine's spirit. And it took the jedi of eons past to bind his spirit and it will still stay that way whether you want it to or not. And it'll still be the entire light side that protected Sidious's from the dark whether you want it to or not, so you have no argument

Ahh, Nai, your denial is so enjoyable to see. I admitted what the NEC said on the other case was true, so unless you're willing to admit Sidious as the most powerful Sith in history, do shut up about it, hypocrite. "Oh, but it meant of only his era!" "No, it wasn't the entire lightside, it was just 2.5 people!" "No, it was one dying Jedi!"

Give it a rest. You're a fine one to talk about hyperbole and conjecture when you support Marka Ragnos. What's his claim to fame? Hearsay, a succesion ritual and your opinion? Ok then

pwned

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's because grammar appears lost on you, Nai. I'll take an LFL author's opinion over yours any day of the week. And Kreia knew Palpatine personally?

Ah yes...because you estimate that a statement refers to a certain time period, despite you haven't a time period mentioned, grammar is beyond me.

Except the novelization disproves you. Comes again.

Movie > Novel. Try it again.

Once you're Dark Lord, you're Dark Lord for life. why do you think Freedon Nadd left the Sith order? Why were the Sith lords finally forced to murder Dathka Graush? After the asencion ritual, all others obey you, period. There's nothing to hint of further duels, especially from a guy who enjoyed playing the other Sith against eachother.

No ? May I remind you that Ragnos beheaded Simus in a duel to receive the Dark Lord title which clearly contradicts your personal opinion. May I also point out that Dathka Graush received the Dark Lord title by winning a civil war on Korriban which also contradicts your pretty opinion that "once Dark Lord all obey you" ?

That's great. The narrarator backs me up on this. And Ragnos knew every Jedi and sith technique and mastered every aspect of the Force? Interesting.

May I point out that Exar Kun developed from a Jedi student (although a gifted one) into a Sith Lord able to destroy century old Jedi Masters and freeze the entire Senate in about six months while using knowledge that Sadow left behind on Yavin 4 only? Knowledge that was most likely less than that what Sadow actually knew and much less than Ragnos knew who was above Sadow ?

And where was he described to master every aspect of Sith magic? And you know what's even funnier about all that knowledge? He never did use it as his body died several hours later! And were those people described as godlike by the narraration? And I call BS on that Red Armored Dark Lord called godlike...they were 'treated as gods' by a primitive people.

During the raid on Ossus the narrator tells us that Kun has gathered more knowledge that he could use. Funny how Exar was destroyed by the entirety of all Jedi in the Galaxy when your "godlike" Sidious got his ass handed to several individuals.

We see Sidious leave Luke sobbing and broken beforehand, and from yoda's own POV, he'd have died if the fight continued. And the Mace issue is still debateable.

Oh. The Mace issue is debateable ? The only thing debateable is Stover's Sidious fanboy version of ROTS. Lucas said Mace overpowered Sidious. Period. Lucas said Yoda and Sidious stalemated. Period. Lucas own word > ROTS novel and everything else. Period.

I've posted it before. Sourcebook story info is canon as everything else. He didn't visit those sites as he had something better: the very spirits and holocrons and direct knowledge of the Ancients....and when was he unable to use the holocron in DE? The databank says otherwise.

No. The historical information in the Sourcebooks is canon. Oh he didn't visit those sites. Selfcontraction much ? The spirits of the Ancients possible lost knowledge (see Ajunta Pall who had lost parts of his memory in 3,000 years - as far as the NEC tells us).
In DE Sidious specifically say that the information stored in the Holocron can only be fully used by a Jedi - something that he's clearly not.

I was including Kressh and Sadow in that statement. Do the math: Four Sith lords, that's forty eight worlds, with me so far? Next we have...Kressh and Sadow, that's another twenty four, then Dor and Horak...that's 96. With Simus, it's 108. And the Dark Lord of the Sith rules the entirety of the Sith Empire.

You still go by lowest possible numbers, dude and that doesn't equate "facts". The Sith Council has 10 members = 120 worlds (lowest possible number). KotoR says that 20 Sith Lords were present during Ragnos funeral (that would be 240 worlds - lowest number). If you look at the space they controlled, that's laughable.

Millions? Mmmhmm. I honestly dare you to back that up...show us the Hapes borders, or Chiss space, or the Confederacy borders next.

Hapes boarders are a non-issue since the planet was settled in 4,150 BBY long after the First Sith Empire was gone. The Chiss were possibly part of the Sith Empire since there was a Chiss colony established on Thule. And what Confederacy are you talking about ?

And you have the terms of a "sector" the Republic established for parts of space which at least 50 inhabitable star systems. The Sith Empire controlled at least 4 of those sectors (Aurril, Antemeridian, Meridian and Nilgaard) completely and judging from the size of those sectors

There could be easily 20 of those inside Sith space. Especially if you conside that the Sith Empire did control worlds in the mid-rim and even the colony sectors (which have higher density of planets / star systems) it's quite save to assume that they controlled thousands or ten-thousands of planets. I mean...look at the picture I've posted. The Sith Space is covering roughly 10 % of the entire galaxy and that's not even accounting Kreia's words that they did pocess worlds in the Unknown Regions.

The Hapes Consortium alone (which is clearly part of the Sith Space) contained 63 star systems. Add the four known sectors (at least 200 star systems) and all the stuff that is shown in the boarders.

The great library Odan built? Alright then

Of course you simply ignore the fact that Ossus was the home of the Jedi 20,000 years before Odan did built the Library there meaning that they stored knowledge there for 20,000 years before the Great Library was established and parts of the Great Library were destroyed - not even talking about the knowledge that was stored on Ossus in the 20,000 years before.

And Kun's line about noone being on Yavin contradicts the movies.

He's talking about people powerful enough to hear him. The only force user present on Yavin 4 was Luke in ANH and I pretty much doubt that he was powerful enough to hear Kun after 3 minutes of training under Obi-Wan or even get Kun's attention.

And complete Locations>Your opinion. And unlike Pall, who was going through major issues with regret, the OLDER spirit of Kun was in full possession of all senses of self. And Ragnos was commanding a cult and Tavion, as well as possessing his sense of self entirely, unlike the whimpering Ajunta.

You miss the facts. Going by the NEC Ajunta Pall did spent 3,000 years in his grave at max. Kun was half-mad after staying 4,000 years on Yavin 4. Why suggest that Ragnos was in top shape after spending 5,000 years on Korriban ?

Right, because ait's so difficult to dominate a primitive people who treat you as gods due to your weapons and force power..

It's difficult to dominate other Sith Lords with the same weapons and force powers you have yourself like Ragnos did for more than a century.

She said 'we'. Nothing about Nihilius who was a whole nother ball game

What the hell ? She says "people from our time period" including anybody from her time period which clearly includes Nihilus.

Point being? Without the illusions, the Sith were screwed...and where did the illusions kill anyone?

Aleema kills quite a bunch of persons using illusions and I doubt that Sadow's more powerful illusions couldn't have the same effect. And it doesn't matter: The fact remains that Sadow was about to conquer Coruscant, Korus Major and Kirrek all at once and would have been sucessful if Gav wouldn't have betrayed him. Period.

DE sourcebook, hyperspace, insider. And proof the duel was felt by Ragnos and not observed, what with, you know, the spirits of the Sith having always resided on Korriban.

Ragnos himself is saying that he was called back from the grave because of the duel. So obviously he didn't observe it. Especially not since he talks about the Dark Side itself and the already dead Sith Lords forcing him to intervene.

Ragnos is never mentioned, nor felt as ODan's nightmares are of the Sith Empire invading.

No. Ragnos is never mentioned:

What is this then ? We see Ragnos passing and Odan wakes up because of this image and gives the comment that "the force is trembeling" ? More ignorance please.

And according to the author, he wrotes down what LFL gave him. Arguing with LFL Nai?

Arguing with Lucas, Lightsnake who says that your godly Sidious was overpowered by Mace Windu and then stalemated with Yoda ? And I'm sure that the entire NEC was dictated word by word by LFL - this is why they needed an author to write it down again, right ?

No, Luke says "It will take all our strength to stop him." No would...the entire mission is stopping ragnos and as mentioned earlier, his forces...and Exar Kun and the like= Ancient Sith Empire? Right

I have quoted Luke directly, you come up with assumptions. You're pwned. Luke had problems with Exar Kuns ionized air particles when even a living Kun didn't come close to Ragnos. When the same Luke defeated DE Sidious a year before his confrontation with Kun. Accept it: Sidious is pwned.

That's great, it took one non-force sensitive to screw over Kun.

Huh ? What the hell are you talking about ?

And said dying Jedi, powered by the force intercepted Palpatine's spirit. And it took the jedi of eons past to bind his spirit and it will still stay that way whether you want it to or not. And it'll still be the entire light side that protected Sidious's from the dark whether you want it to or not, so you have no argument

Sidious spirt = stopable. Ancient Sith spirits = unstopable. Who wins ?
And it still is just your personal interpretation of the source material that the "entire light side" was used against Sidious. And it still makes no sense that individuals can channel the entire light side and it even makes less sence that Luke can do so and needs "the combined power of the entire Academy" as backup to try stopping Ragnos. Meh...frankly your entire argument doesn't make sense. But that's nothing new for you.

Give it a rest. You're a fine one to talk about hyperbole and conjecture when you support Marka Ragnos. What's his claim to fame? Hearsay, a succesion ritual and your opinion? Ok then

"hearsay" from somebody who studied Sith history for years, "hearsay" from Luke Skywalker himself. "hearsay" from omniscient narrators. But of couse this is pwned by the in universe opinion of a single historian who brightly admits possible errors in his own text. What a great theory. No...

Dan's opinion>Yours. And it applies to anything other than the time period. Hypocrite.

Novel>Your opinion. Movie doesn't contradict novel there. Try again

Actually he cut Simus down and Simus preserved his life and had his head removed from his body. And like you just said! Dathka became Dark Lord AFTER the war. And MArka won it IN A DUEL, see the issues with your argument now?

And it's also far less than what Sidious knew. "Every aspect of the force in all its guises.' I'm trusting canon over you.

Sidious was described as being bound by the Force itself and every Jedi...hm. And Kun fought the entire order? No, by his own admission he ran away without trying and had his body destroyed. And once more, when'd he use that knowledge? Oh, that's right, he didn't because he was destroyed a few hours later!

Because anything that goes against Nai's image of SW=fanboyism! Did Sidious use the force in the duel against Mace until he was disarmed and then Anakin comes right in in a world without luck? Ok then. And Yoda still realized IF THE FIGHT CONTINUED, he'd die. No contradiction

Sorry, Nai, direct quote is the story information in SBKs are canon. And Sidious still unlocked the secrets of the holocrons, databank quote. And once more: No holes in Kun's memory, and Ragnos is still as nasty as ever...Vodo's is fine...

Yeah, because we see 20 Sith Lords there, let alone in any position. Naga arrives late, he and KRessh duel, Sith council later shows a lot fewer than twenty.

Show us the Hapes borders then? And Hutt space, Mandalorian and Chiss space.

Sidious had it excavated then. in CL, we see artifacts taken from Yavin 4, pointed out as such....and wait, Gantoris was powerful enough to hear Kun, but Luke Grandson of the Force Skywalker couldn't?

Ragnos is only at the center of darkness with the other Sith in his temple on Korriban...and after one thousand years he's more than tip top.

You're right it is: Hence Marka playing them against eachother, consolidating his power base all the while.

No, she says "We". Motoko was kind enough to listen to the scene and write it down.

Aha, Aleema kills people with illusions? Which is why they're described as 'in shock?' And still doesn't change the fact without illusions, the mighty Sith war effort was nothing....where's that powerful Force storm when the Tetan fleet was chasing Sadow?

Which of course translates to "Their duel was so strong it woke Ragnos' as opposed to 'Ragnos came to interrupt their duel after watching it as it only took place on his doorstep on Korriban.

Wow! Odan only later describes it as his nightmares of the Sith empire! Where is Ragnos's death or ghost described as troubling the force? For all you know, ODan was dreaming of that moment. Unless you have exact proof Ragnos's death impacted the Force whatsoever, and ODan's nightmares of the Sith Empire PERIOD without any mention of its lord...inconclusive at best.

And according to its author, LFL gave him more than a bit to work with and had to approve it. And we still have Sidious tricking Anakin, killing Mace and Yoda realizing if the duel went on, he'd die. Fancy that.

And there's where your hypocrisy comes into play: Luke's the expert when you casually dismiss and twist everything elsE? Oh, it's because it supports RAGNOS...whereas Luke needed the entire power of the lightside to beat Sidious, declared by the narraration as mastered every aspect of the Force in all its guises, every power and technique of the Sith and Jedi, the darkest power the galaxy had ever seen and the manifestation of the dark side. Your god is owned, accept it...and cowardly little Exar needed to attack Luke from behind with Kyp Durron and was driven to a state of desperation, and fear-quoted by Luke, whaddya know- and trapped by padawans. Whereas your god has done nothing except...die and get his ass kicked by a neophyte knight who just fought through an army in Ragnos's place of power. And it's nice to see you go on about hyperbole when you keep taking hearsay at gospel.

Ulic Qel-Droma managed to bring down Kun's entire war effort.

Ancient Sith spirits unstoppable? Which is why Ragnos's couldn't touch Jaden and they're too cowardly to emerge from Korriban?Give me a break, that's the worst sort of bias, especially when we saw some spirits on Korriban DESTROYED in DLOTS

Who 'studied Sith history for years/' did Kreia know Palpatine? No? Did Luke research Ancient Sith history? And once more: Dan Wallace's opinion> Yours. So does LFL's

This thread is stupid as hell. I repeat: THIS THREAD RETARDED! Marka ragnos is a complete unknown, who is either weak as hell or powerful as hell, no one knows. So as a result this thread will go on forever because their is no actual proof that Ragnos is that great at all, other than a measely "The most powerful of powerful" which is completely up to debate. So, as i said, this thread is going to remain uncocncusive until everyne gets tired of running in circles like the little lap dogs they are leave.

Blaxican's probably. Right. Meh, I'll stop until I can get something from KJA, if he ever does respond

Originally posted by Blaxican Style
This thread is stupid as hell. I repeat: THIS THREAD RETARDED! Marka ragnos is a complete unknown, who is either weak as hell or powerful as hell, no one knows. So as a result this thread will go on forever because their is no actual proof that Ragnos is that great at all, other than a measely "The most powerful of powerful" which is completely up to debate. So, as i said, this thread is going to remain uncocncusive until everyne gets tired of running in circles like the little lap dogs they are leave.

The fact we know he was more powerful than the following:

-Sadow
-Simus
-Kressh
-Nadd
-Kun
-Ulic
-Revan
-Exile
-Malak
-Kreia
-Sion
-etc.
-etc.

I'm sure he was "weak as hell", I mean, it's not like the aforementioned are strong at all, right? No, no. They are just considered some of the more powerful figures of Star Wars.

It's pretty conclusive that he was, at the least, one of the most powerful. Though, this debate does seem it's going to be last ad infinitum.

oh yeah gee my abd, thats right. Hes so powerful because he managed to "Keep them all in check." Right? Pffft. Please. Their are stilla anumebr of ways that he can keep them off his ass without being more powerful then them. Look at this realisticly.Have you seen those crappy old movies and the those cartoons were thers trhe short ass boss and the two brutes next to him as body gaurds? it's not common for rulers to have people who are twice as powerful as they are, or twice as smart.

Originally posted by Blaxican Style
oh yeah gee my abd, thats right. Hes so powerful because he managed to "Keep them all in check." Right? Pffft. Please. Their are stilla anumebr of ways that he can keep them off his ass without being more powerful then them.

Except "the most powerful of the most powerful" tells us he was, in-fact, more powerful than them. Not to mention, the strongest Sith rules.

Look at this realisticly.

It's Star Wars, not real life.

Have you seen those crappy old movies and the those cartoons were thers trhe short ass boss and the two brutes next to him as body gaurds? it's not common for rulers to have people who are twice as powerful as they are, or twice as smart.

Except Ragnos wasn't a pocket-sized Sith Lord, and he was stated to be "the most powerful" out of all of the Ancient Sith, who in-turn, were noted as making the Sith of the KOTOR era look like children, who in-turn, were noted for their power. Also, just look at the people who studied under/from the Ancient Sith, they were very powerful indeed, which also speaks more for their power.

Originally posted by Blaxican Style
oh yeah gee my abd, thats right. Hes so powerful because he managed to "Keep them all in check." Right? Pffft. Please. Their are stilla anumebr of ways that he can keep them off his ass without being more powerful then them. Look at this realisticly.Have you seen those crappy old movies and the those cartoons were thers trhe short ass boss and the two brutes next to him as body gaurds? it's not common for rulers to have people who are twice as powerful as they are, or twice as smart.

Shut it, Blaxican. You don't even know what you're talking about. Stop being a detractor. Nothing more obnoxious than a guy who doesn't know shit about the topic and doesn't debate regularly coming in and trying to render absolute binding judgment on a big debate; that's like sending Ronald McDonald to solve a border dispute near India and Pakistan; it's ****ing stupid.

You have some PROOF (< Look that word up if you have to) then bring it. You don't, stfu. Nai, IKC, Illustrious, Motoko, myself... hell, half of SWVF has brought evidence to the table. You don't like the idea of Ragnos being powerful, so you ***** about it. But that doesn't suddenly just "overrule" evidence any more than Lightsnake's stonewalling and poo-pooing evidence.