Originally posted by Lightsnake
And clarified to mean 'of that era'
No. It wasn't "clarified". Dan Wallace just did give you his personal opinion which does mean jack shit in the grand sheme of things. Tom Veitch said that he thought Ulic Quel-Droma was "wasted" as a character in the DLotS comics - still it happened.
ROTJ novelization disagrees with you. As do the character guides
The movie disagrees with you and since the movies are the ultimate level of canon you're pretty much pwned.
Character Guide, Naga is described as, with the other Sith lords as preserving his life for a century...and considering every last Ancient Sith is powerful and godly...
Show me the mentioning of Dol Gal-Ram here. He isn't mentioned ? What a surprise. And still you can't ignore that their are differences in the power levels of the Ancient Sith.
And forgotten is mentioned as well
Where ? You gave us the quote and it said "all known, unknown, and forgotten" means he knew all known (in his era) some unknown to others and some forgotten. And nothing else. It is shown in the actual sources that he was far away from mastering everything and knowing everything.
Neither of whom were able to do so several blocks from the Jedi temple or to the entire order. Sidious taught Dooku Quey'Tek and he taught Ventress. Maul described Sidious's power as able to cloak the power of the Sith from their enemies from literally inches away.
Again: Irrelevant missdirection. You still failed to give me a Sith who was able to instakill Jedi Council members descriping Sidious grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening". Exar Kun was able to run around on an entire planet filled with Jedi without being recognized as DLotS.
Yeah, proof? All you have is the one clone that was sabatoged. All other clones work fine.
Did you miss the fact that he pocessed his first body in DE for some years and you see him being an old man already in the beginning of the DE comics - using a clone body which was not sabotaged ?
Fine, metal. I got a bit confused when we see Naga's sword looking rather similar to the crystal formations at Ziost. And also, we don't see the blade cut through the wall, just that it hits the wall when Ludo swings it...I think the Ancient Sith might be annoyed about dueling lords hacking through the recently established grand tomb of their greatest Dark Lord.
Irrelevant missdirection and appeal to redicule. What would Sadow and Kressh care about the opinion of the other Sith Lords who aren't even present ? And we see Kressh putting his blade right through a wall.
My point is, we have several examples of Sith comissioning others to build their weaponry. My point is, the Ancient Sith didn't necessarily create their weaponry themselves, as opposed to getting forgemasters and alchemists and the like
Your point is that you have no point. We have one example of an Ancient Sith creating a weapon for another ancient Sith. We know that Sadow was very proficient in Sith Alchemy (given his mutated Massassi as well as the beast Kun defeated) and same for Ragnos. So there is nothing to suggest that they didn't created their amulets / weapons on their own.
According to complete Locations, Sidious got his hands on what was stored at Yavin 4, so that accounts for knowledge from Ossus-Kun's ghost is never mentioned, however- and a site of the Ancient Sith doesn't mean the knowledge itself wasn't replicated elsewhere. Sidious still managed to get his hands on quite a few Sith holocrons.
According to the original source we have a bunch of people plundering Yavin 4 (KotoR) and then we have Kun who didn't notice any powerful presence until Luke's students did show up. Unless you want to assume that Sidious is somehow weaker than Luke's students you're again talking out of your ass. Not even talking about the fact that still some knowledge was lost on Ossus.
Vader handled the bulk of the purge, but Sidious was referred to as killing quite a few Jedi himself. And Tremayne and his fellow Inquisitors certainly accounted for some of the Jedi...Tremayne killed Shelvay's master for example-the Sullustan, forgot his name.
Irrelevant missdirection again. It doesn't matter what Sidious subordinates did. It's only said that Sidious received the weapons from the dead hands of his enemies. Who did kill those enemies ? Not said. From what we know Sidious did never enter a direct confrontation with a Jedi past ROTS.
The techniques are still designed to neutralize enemies without violence...why would the destructive fallen Jedi even bother with them, or get around to pasing them on to the Sith?
And somehow the more violent Dark Side techniques which are the offspring of said techniques are weaker ? We do have force drain (which is the Sith version of force block - developed so much that it can kill the victim), an ability to slow down enemies body functions (kind of Moricho) and of course something to cause confusion / desease being used on the victim (kind of Malachia). So even if the techniques don't have the same name they are known to the Sith.
No, it was 'ever' and that was made extremely clear. Mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten, and invents new ones and his leisure, later stated he had mastered every power of the Jedi and the Sith, and every aspect of the Force. 'In his era?' come on...what happened to those Sith holocrons and artifacts then? Did he learn nothing from Ziost, Korriban, Had Abaddon?
We know that Ziost and especially Korriban were plundered 4,000 years before Sidious was even alive. We know that Sith spirits lose parts of their memory (see Pall) and we have Malachor V and Veeshas Tuwan (Sith library on Arkania) completely destroyed. You exegerrating Sidious knowledge. Period.
Sadow says each rules a 'dozen' in reference to four Sith lords kneeling before him...with himself and Kressh, that would make around 96 (I'm including Horak and Dor)
And fine, admitted on the Simus point.
Lmao. The Sith Empire included worlds in the outer rim (Ziost, Korriban), the Mid Rim (Ambria) and even the Colony Sector (Arkania) meaning it was really huge. Your assumption there is bullshit.
The point was the Dark Jedi went dark and began using the force in destructive ways....and over two thousand years, their teachings kept constant?
The point was that those Jedi went to the Sith before the destruction of Ossus and that the Sith Lords stored knowledge in places that were completely destroyed before Sidious was around meaning that there was knowledge Sidious simply couldn't get.
Where was it just 'estimated' now? And yes, Sadow's ship. Once more, technology isn't a substitute of power.'
Irrelevant missdirections aren't substitue for power too.
Like the Sith weren't killing defenseless people when they chucked the slave women into Ragnos's tomb and sealed it? Especially with the speech Naga gives on Simus, his wisdom and nobility...why is the comment of nobility not being laughed out of the room?
They weren't talking about sending them on a vacation before. Ever heared about honor among thieves, warriors, assassins ? Does somebody laugh at it ?
According to KReia, Nihilius is something very special and a threat to all life...where does she call him a child in comparison?
She calls all people from her own era "children" compared to the Ancient Sith and this statement clearly includes Nihilus.
I also noticed how Odan was standing around being useless...ODan said his BM wasn't enough to sway the single minded fury of the Massassi...and the moment the illusions vanished, the tides turned. The comic said it was about to fall to overwhelming numbers.
No. The moment Ooroo dropped himself into the Massassi poisoning and killing their commander as well as their best fighters was when the tight turned. Before that the defenders didn't have a chance - even with using battle meditation.
That's 'across the galaxy'? And the point was Ragnos wanted them to band together to preserve the empire, not tear it apart.
Odan sensing Ragnos passing into his grave on Koros Major (core world) when Ragnos was on Korriban (Outer Rim) is halfway across the Galaxy. And Ludo / Sadow fighting was intense enough to call the dead Ragnos back from his great. They weren't just felt by the living - even by the dead.
Quote: "What have I forseen?" He has nightmares about the Sith empire, when does he ever even hint about Ragnos?
Quote: "The force is trembeling". And all we have to make the force trembeling is Ragnos passing into his grave. No - having Ragnos in the very same picture isn't a hint, genious.
And it was confirmed that just meant in Ragnos's era
Personal opinion of an author isn't canon. Period.
Luke is talking about stopping Ragnos's forces and ressurection-and Luke is suddenly a great source on long dead Sith?
Luke is talking about an already resurrected Ragnos. Period. A historian writing down the story of the universe 25 years after Sidious death is a great source on Sidious and much more the ancient Sith. haha.
And the Academy to every Jedi who ever lived?
No. The academy compared to a weaker version of Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin.
And the description applies to that era and that era alone. The now he is dead is a dead giveaway.
Except the movies don't contradict the aforementioned.
Of course not. But Dor is still one a Sith Lord and Naga is described as preserving his life as do the other Sith Lords
The funny thing is how you try to put some crap about 'his era'...where is 'his era' mentioned? And later on it said he'd mastered every technique of the Jedi and Sith. Along with every aspect of the forc.e Canon>Your opinion
So Exar knew Quey'Tek too? Good for him. Sidious's power is described as 'godlike'. Better for him
Ahhh, irrelevant misdirection much? "Umm, he only pried the weapons from their hands personally, was stated to have faced them in combat...but he didn't kill them!"
Exagerrating Sidious's knowledge? Canon states he'd mastered every aspect of the force in all its guises. Underestimation much, Nai?
96 planets, Nai...considerably less than 'hundreds'
Luke found an intact library on Ossus, point being? And Apparently Kun not feeling powerful Force users was retconned. See: Complete Locations, states he had plundered Yavin 4 and bedecked his chambers with ancient Sith heirlooms...and Ragnos's memory was fine in JA.
Great, honor...from a murderous, backstabbing race that happily subjugates a primitive people, that makes so much sense.
Where was that 'we' referring to Nihilius?
hat's Kirrek, how about Coruscant? when the illusions vanished, the fight was pretty much over for the Sith.
That's all great. Were the shockwaves of their duel felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy? No? Okay then. Were the shockwaves of their duel causing imperials to drop down dead? No? Ok then
"The force is trembling...images...what have I forseen?" Nothing about Ragnos, in fact, all Odan says is he dreamt of the Sith Empire.
According to said author, he was working from documents given to him by LFL. And Luke's big speech is about stopping Ragnos from being ressurected...and look at the nice hypocrisy, Luke's an expert on the ancient Sith?
Academy compared to every Jedi who lived? Or the entire lightside of the force-which'lls till be the lightside of the force no matter how many times you try to deny it?- Ok then.
Sorry, Nai, but I'm taken the written canon word over yours
Lightsnake, so you intend to tell us, that Sidious knew every single technique of the Dark Side?
Your telling us that in the course of 5000 years, not a single bit of knowledge was lost? Please, correct me if i'm wrong, where is he said to have gained Sadow's teachings? When they were destroyed along with Exar Kun.
So Sidious suddenly learns lost information from Ossus, and Malachor V which had tonnes of information destroyed. So Sidious gains the full amount of knowledge from Korriban, when the Dark Lords that preceded him plundered Korriban of the majority of its knowledge.
You're assuming that Sidious knows everything that the Dark Lords in GAOTS, and FOTSE, there is no logical reasoning within that. Perhaps he may have in between Ruusan to DE, but nothing is as absurd as your claim to having Sidious knowing every single technique, he simply didn't have the sources for such a feat.
Every technique of the Jedi and the Sith, please this assumption begs proof that it incoporates everything before Ruusan, please how is he going to learn over 5000 years of teachings, your bias begs proof
Please, your other arguments can make sense, but the one your trying to convince us, that Sidious could even come close to knowing everything from the Ancient Sith Empire down to DE is nothing short of insane bias towards Sidious.
Considering it's written down that he did and common sense, logic and opinions be damned that is exactly what I'm saying...and I'm not denying he's dreaming of Ragnos by default of dreaming of the empire, just that apparently Ragnos's death is causing such tremors in the force when he's already been dead for a bit
Written down that he did what? Mastered every technique of the Jedi and Sith, oh but then again, of which era?
You see your quote is as vague as "Marka Ragnos, The Dark Lord of the Sith, The Most Powerful of the Most Powerful" If you intend to use such a quote to support Sidious knowing everything that was not of his era, its quite logical for us to say Ragnos is the most powerful because it was not stated to have been for his era, and as Dan confirmed, it was purely his opinion and therefore not canon.
What do you mean which era? It's 'every technique', and 'every aspect of the force' period...and the quote is a direct summary of the current events in the comic. Like I said, the 'he WAS' and then the 'and now' are dead giveaways.
And I'll take an LFL employee and writer's opinion over a fan's any day
Well, by saying that every technique and every aspect of the Force from starting from a certain time period is more common sense than having Sidious knowing Sadow's teachings which he has not demonstrated to any degree. "Every Aspect of the Force" and "Every Aspect of the Force as of Ruusan," notice how the quote could imply that, its merely for our interpretation, but notice also how stupid the latter quote would sound and why Authors would not write such things.
And? The quote on Ragnos, states specifically that he was the Most Powerful OF the Most Powerful, you haven't shown why this quote is not usuable whilst your quote is.
Its quite fair, if you want to claim Sidious knew every last little thing, then i can use the same Ragnos quote to claim he was the Most Powerful of the Most Powerful.
The quote's usable as they come in reference to the Ancient era which is what it applies to. The other quote directly stated Sidious mastered all known, unknown and forgotten etc...and mastered every aspect of the force and every power and technique of the Jedi and the Sith...that's open and shut whereas the ragnos quote specifically says 'and now he is dead'...y'know, as a setup to actually introduce the comic? Kinda like how
And the Force can change now? That's interesting. And we know Sidious picked up on teachings from the Ancients...he often spent time at Korriban for example, so your theory is null. Just read the comic summary. It's five thousand years in the past, refers TO the past and even says that now he's dead and his carcass is being divided.
I can't really argue with you, not that its correct, but im just not good enough.
Leave it to Nai and Illustrious to do so.
One last point, provide us with that quote, and that logic is completely absurd, how can Sidious master a technique that isn't even known? How can Sidious master a technique that is lost and no records of it?
If anything the quote incorporates all known techniques. Yet if Sidious learned as much as you said, why did he not demonstrate any of those techniques? The Amulet Blasts would have certainly helped, Kun's Freezing Spell would've helped, Traya's instakill, Nihilus's draining ability all these techniques would have aided Sidious and most definitely defeated DE Luke without breaking a sweat.
You mean when they were having a massive lightsaber duel both were focusing on with their very beings? And it also said that any other attack would've been irrelevant and the split second it took to deviate from the duel even slightly would be to get killed...you think Luke was weak as all that? DE calls him the 'purest light'