Originally posted by tdtd
Interesting thought though, in DLOTS Kun knew that Ulic had the other amulet, his counterpart, and as we know Sadow wore two amulets at all time in GAOTS, so that leads me to believe that Ulic's amulet could possibly do the same thing as Kun's, only he didn't know how to use it.
Except all of the major sith lords wore similar amulets, if I recall correctly.
Three theories...
1. Ulic didn't know how to use it. (Which would be weird, because Kun used it instinctively.)
2. It's not meant for that kind of blast. (Plausible. I once mentioned the possibility that the secondary amulet was meant for defending against such attacks, which would explain why there aren't incinerated bodies everywhere).
3. It has the ability, but Ulic has not reached the level of hate and force power to use it. (Debateable, but still possible.)
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ever since said sourcebooks started including solid story information, like when they brought Kadann back?
Oh. You maybe should read the DS sourcebook entry on Ragnos then...carefully...
Fine, I don't care if you're cynical, but drop the insults.
Or else... ?
how would he manage to kill another Force user? One of the thousands of other attacks he knew?
Oh...you're talking about the kind of attack we never see him using when needed. Why didn't he make Vader drop down dead on the ground instead of getting thrown into a reactor core ? I'm still waiting for a quote saying that Sidious knew and used instakill attacks.
Ragnos playing the other Dark Lords against eachother was mentioned in earlier sources, it's not something she invented. And great for people from Kreia's time...did they master knowledge and techniques dating back 25,000 years to the founding of the Order and Had Abaddon?
It was mentioned in earlier sources ? Site those sources. Give me quotes please.
Let me think: Did people in Kreia's time had access to a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge named Malachor V - yes. Is Nihilus descriped as "pinacle" of the ability to drain complete planets ? Oh yeah. Did the Sith knowledge include abilities from the time of founding of the order or - at least - knowledge predating great loss of knowledge like the destruction of Ossus and Malachor V and the complete destruction of the Ancient Sith Empire, as well as the Jedi Civil War and the Sith War as a whole ? Yap.
And Dooku was scared of Sidious, for one...you want 'descriptions?' I'll be glad to bring out a few from the narrarations. Some included are an event horizon in the force, a terrifying, devouring darkness, the manifestation of the Dark Side itself, etc.
And now give me the quote were Dooku mentions Sidious control over the Dark Side or his force powers as "frightening". In "Striking from the Shadows" he even thinks about overcoming his master once since this belongs to the rule of the Sith. Yes. I totally see him being scared of Sidious. Same way he was scared about Yoda - Sidious equal ?
And Palpatine used cloning because it was fast, efficient and provided him with numerous bodies in numerous areas. It was his preference, not his limitation.
Quote ? I didn't see him saying "I could just create new bodies for myself if I want but instead I prefer clone bodies and in case I run out of clones I totally must desperately try to pocess a Jedi child despite the fact that I can create a new body for myself whenever I want". Logic anybody ?
That's the power of the tools, many of which Sidious got his hands on, according to several sources. Apparently it was Hethrir who gave Tavion the sceptre, too.
The power of tools created by the Ancient Sith. Somehow I didn't see Sidious creating tools like that but instead he again did rely on technology. But of course...that was his preference, not his limitation, right ? "I want to rule the galaxy with terror. But instead of creating a ship that uses part of my force power to destroy planets and sun systems I rather spent 19 years with waiting until the Death Star is finished and spent billions of credits on the project". What a genious...
Yes, very impressive for the ancient Sith, I'll agree. However, when Kun uses the amulet, he himself says he can barely manage to direct it, and he never uses it in such a manner again on someone who could be capable of fighting back-Ulic for example. Yes, he uses it on Aleema, but as a stun blast.
I love how you simply refuse to accept that those amulets were created by said Ancient Sith who could control their power - namely Sadow. This somehow makes me think that Sadow > Kun when it comes to control over the Dark Side. And we already now that Ragnos > Sadow. And we also know that Kun's 4,000 year old spirit was enough to keep Luke - who had already defeated Sidious at this point - busy. Want to draw conclusions yourself or do I really have to do all logical reasoning for you ?
Ok, exagerrating his abilities? He manage to devastate fleets and reuce worlds to ruin...described as the single greatest usage of dark side power for the former, and described as having mastered every technique and aspect of the force to that point, that's eagerration? What of the severe exagerration of the Ancients? And Sidious heads to Korriban, quite simply because time is an extreme factor, with his last clone body being in the poor state and himself being almost unable to use the force for killing it.
Dude. He ran to Korriban and received knowledge from the Ancients that he didn't have before. Get it into your head. If he had mastered every aspect of the Dark Side, he would have known what to do - but he didn't. So: Exagerration !
And once again: How Sidious amassed such knowledge is unknown, but he did. As for the books, Sidious was said to be planning and to be able to write hundreds more before his death.
He was ? Quotes ? The only thing he left unfinished was the last book of his compendium and said compendium was always planned to have 3 books. Do you have a quote saying something else ? No ? How about STFU then instead of coming up with this kind of idiocy.
And great...he wanted to write "hundreds" more before his death. Do you know how much information can be stored in a single holocron ?
And 'shattering metal?' Ludo slammed a blade made of crystal onto a stone floor.
Oh your knowledge is unbelievable great. Not.
So they are made out of crystal ? Aha. Is this why Ajunta Palls weapon is crafted out of metal ? Is this why those swords could block blasters as well as lightsabers ? Is this why the swords do cut through stone ? Is this why the metal blades clashing together in the comics. Can it be that somebody is talking out of his ass again ?
And this is an earnest question: When did they shatter through walls?
Ludo and Sadow fighting. You can see them swinging their blades right through the walls next to them. Cont...
...cont.
Sidious had years to visit numerous sites and both gain the knowledge and drained other energies from where he visited.
Yes. I really like to see him visiting places that were destroyed completely 4,000 years in the past (Ossus, Malachor V).
Just because fighting wasn't his preference doesn't he's not capable of it.
No. He's not capable of it because we see him not being capable of it when he lost his lightsaber fight with DE Luke.
He knows techniques the Ancient Sith did not, including Jedi arts, and what would the ancients do exactly if Sidious used a force storm and focused it on them?
The ancient Sith which were the descendants of rouge Jedi didn't knew Jedi arts ? Great theory. Sidious focused a force storm on them which he can't even control himself ? Another great theory.
Aren't brains a big part of battles? And if the Ancients' philosophy was to conquer, why were they stagnating for centuries on end? Naga's wishes to expand and conquer were met with scorn until Simus's death.
Because they took the entire space they could before hitting the boarders of the Republic and they already had anything they wished which is mentioned multiple times in the comics.
And Luke's problems with Kun stem from several things: He did not want to fight Kyp and having centuries dead Sith Lords appear tend to surprise most people...Sidious's power broke Luke's spirit in a way that hasn't been done since and turned him to the dark side, and the descriptions since of Luke's battle with Sidious sums up their power adequately, like how Ganner, Anakin and Jacen were in the former two's deaths and Jacen's lightshow: It wasn't something permanent, but the will of the force acting through them, to describe it from Jacen, the aforementioned became 'pure conduits to the force and its raw power.'
This is so great. You completely miss the topic and throw in another missdirection. What do Kyp, Sidious, Ganner, Anakin and Jacen have to do with Luke's problems to defeat Kun's spirit. Correct: Nothing. The "will of the force" doesn't apply in versus fights and so there won't be any power boost saving somebody.
Sidious was the same with the dark side, and described as its manifestation. after his final death, the dark side was irrevocably weakened. He might not have lived in those times, but experince tends to mean little in SW...Jacen manage to match the centuries old Tsavong Lah, Sidious himself killed numerous powerful masters-some many centuries old- during the purge-hence his saber collection.If it's the force in a duel, Sidious could doubtlessly use the many, many powerful techniques the Ancients wouldn't know or use another attack on a level they couldn't guard against.
And again: You're talking out of your ass. Where is Sidious the "manifestation" of the entire Dark Side. I didn't see the Dark Side suddenly being gone after DE.
And nice missdirections again: Is Tsavong Lah a force user who had the same stuff to study that Jacen had ? No ? Great. Give me the names of the numerous force users Sidious killed during the purge - this was Vaders job. Can it be that somebody is talking out of his ass again ? And Sidious knowing techniques the Ancients wouldn't know ? Where should he have received them since he learned anything from sources that were used and in most cases created by the ancients ? You don't have an answer ? Damn...why doesn't that surprise me ?
And I call into question your description of the Ancients when we take into Ludo's Marka devotion, their reaction to Simus's death-and it was Simus's death, not that he was murdered by outsiders- and the necessity to trick them into going to war...even Simus's concern for Naga.
Oh my.
Can it be that they had to be tricked into war because they did have everything they wanted allready and just saw going to war with the Republic (and the Jedi) as a possible threat that was completely useless because they already ruled over an empire and the former Dark Lord has always kept it like it was ? Do you think they have conquered hundrets of planets using diplomacy and then talked the former inhabitants into becoming slaves ?
I personally am surprised how you can accept one of those "weak" ancient Sith Lords keeping his seperated head alive in a jaw for more than a century ? And I wonder how you can ignore that Sadow nearly conquered the Republic's capital, the capital of the Tetan Empire and another planet during a single attack if he wouldn't have been betrayed by Gav. That guy must be really weak and the Sith / Massassi must be horrible fighters...
Gameplay info isn't valid. IE: Stats
There isn't an 'or else'. I've treated you with a modicum of respect and without flinging insults in your face unprovoked.
Sidious only managed to direct the attack he was using on Vader. The thing was a bit sudden, you know. And considering he knew all known, previously unknown and forgotten techniques...yeah, that proves he knew instakills.
And knowledge isn't gained over time? Your chances to shed logic on it still fail, when you take into account what's written. Sources'd include the EC btw.
Palpatine is described as an 'event horizon' in the Force in the ROTS novelization I believe...now, where's the quote of Ragnos's power being frightening. And where in Rep. 63 did he mention even TRYING to overthrow Sidious? He was playing Quin the entire time to have him assassinate Viento.
Sa-Di and Nefta are at Palpatine's hidden store on Byss, for one...and how the hell are you so sure creating a new body works like that? How is it any difference from a mass produced clone? Once more...hundreds of clones...or one 'new body' that would actually require time to create...when you're NOT a ghost and thus do not need it, as opposed to back up clones
OH, gee, because technology of the Ancient Sith is the determining factor of power! Notice they didn't have access to Sadow's ship anymore? And it's called the 'Sun Crusher'...Palp purposefully had the diea put on hold as he didn't like the diea of some pilot getting ideas with the thing.
I love how you don't provide quotes about Naga having directly created what he had. Put up or shut up...and gee, could Luke's 'loss' have anything to do with Kun surprising him and Kyp doubleteaming him?
Because knowing a baby exists is some dark side technique, hm? Next.
Read the comic, what is Ludo Kressh's blade made out of? Crystal, ok then. Post a scan then, if it's metal.
I said numerous sites, not all the sites.
I've posted the info on the saber duel with Luke, I won't post it again. First time, he destroys Luke in a duel and is said to have killed many other Jedi in battle...and how do we know Sidious was preparing to write more volumes? DE, the endnotes that expand on the book heavily
More crap. Yeah, how would the dark Jedi be passing on non-fatal Jedi arts such as Malacia and morichro?
So, Sith space was in the heart of the Republic with Republic space to the north,e ast, south and west?
Oh, so you can decide that Luke can't fight at his full power now? Fact remains: He doesn't have the same boost with Kun as when he beat Sidious.
DE again for Sidious and the dark side and more misunderstanding of the Force! And Sidious knew...every technique and aspect of the Force to that point, sith to Jedi. And Palpaitne's tally is shown when he shows Luke his saber collection, all taken from the corpses of Jedi. You're trying to go agaisnt what's written again? Not surprised either.
The people who live on conquest and blood have taken all they want? Yeah, real fearsome. And yes, it's amazing Simus could do that...until you take a look at Selestrine from Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire.
So, nai, the Ancient Sith empire apparently knew every Jedi technique and Dark Side technique, developed before-and after- their empire was formed? Still waiting for proof on who created all those toys and trinkets, or how they're different from technology...why a sith amulet blast would be any different than a hidden blaster. Sourcebook still mentions Sidious as knowing all he did, and doing what he did, so spare me your attempts to get out of it and answer me this: Where are all these quotes on the godly Ancient Sith? We have some technology and their weaponry, fascinating...then there's the guy whose subordinate could manipulate solar flares effortlessly. And mastered every aspect of the darkside, and powers and techniques of the Jedi and the Sith. Physical power's great but not seeing that inferiority in Force power...or you attempting to explain why the Republic are 'monsters' to the Sith for killing Simus...Oh, and no explanation made for what is described as the 'greatest usage of dark side power'...or how the Dark side was weakened badly when Sidious died...and just Sidious...or how the it required every jedi of eons to lock his soul away...and yes, Nai, I'm curious...he went to Korriban to learn about baby Anakin, your point? Baby Anakin is a long forgotten piece of Sith knowledge? When Ragnos can't even meditate through the force without risking his sabatoged body dying and he knows there's a few people who can tell him what he wants...
And there's alsoa thing called 'scale' when it comes to force powers, Sidious's force storm or world draining for example. And narraration. Like how Luke is described as extremely powerful.
And yes, Sadow's army was so, incredibly powerful...beaten on three planets without illusions. And Aleema and Luke make massive scale illusions, point?
In fact, show me where Sadow's duel with Ludo was felt over the universe.
And Nai? Didn't you say you were finished with this debate? Feel free to make good on that promise
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Gameplay info isn't valid. IE: Stats
Who was talking about gameplay info, huh ?
Sidious only managed to direct the attack he was using on Vader. The thing was a bit sudden, you know. And considering he knew all known, previously unknown and forgotten techniques...yeah, that proves he knew instakills.
Wow. He isn't able to stop force lightning at will and use an instakill attack...you know...instantly ? He knew forgotten techniques. If you find logic to add to this sentence come back.
Palpatine is described as an 'event horizon' in the Force in the ROTS novelization I believe...now, where's the quote of Ragnos's power being frightening. And where in Rep. 63 did he mention even TRYING to overthrow Sidious? He was playing Quin the entire time to have him assassinate Viento.
I still fail to see were "event horizon" is Dooku descriping him as "frightening". Quote given by Kreia on Korriban in KotoR II. When he's giving Quinlan a lecture about Sith philosophy and Quinlan says something like "But you will always stay the apprentice unless you kill your master".
Sa-Di and Nefta are at Palpatine's hidden store on Byss, for one...and how the hell are you so sure creating a new body works like that? How is it any difference from a mass produced clone? Once more...hundreds of clones...or one 'new body' that would actually require time to create...when you're NOT a ghost and thus do not need it, as opposed to back up clones
Oh yes. Let me think how using a sceptre, waving it over a grave and with this creating a new body is different from using technology to clone yourself and then put your spirit into your new clone body. No there isn't any difference at all...
OH, gee, because technology of the Ancient Sith is the determining factor of power! Notice they didn't have access to Sadow's ship anymore? And it's called the 'Sun Crusher'...Palp purposefully had the diea put on hold as he didn't like the diea of some pilot getting ideas with the thing.
Thanks for not addressing the point why he didn't create a ship using a part of his power to destroy planets and sun systems.
I love how you don't provide quotes about Naga having directly created what he had. Put up or shut up...and gee, could Luke's 'loss' have anything to do with Kun surprising him and Kyp doubleteaming him?
I love how I write "ancient Sith" and you read "Sadow". I told it once before: Every Sith Lord we see in the comics does pocess amulets like the one Sadow wears and estimating that they "found them on the ground" were even Kun was able to create one of them using Sadow's knowledge is one of the most stupid ideas that I ever encountered.
Because knowing a baby exists is some dark side technique, hm? Next.
Because not knowing what to do equals "omniscience" ?
Read the comic, what is Ludo Kressh's blade made out of? Crystal, ok then. Post a scan then, if it's metal.
Crystal that the light didn't pass through ? Black crystal ? Able to cut through walls, block lightsabers and blasters ? Do you have a scan saying this ? No ? Great...of course you have not because it's metal like every other Sith sword we've ever seen.
I said numerous sites, not all the sites.
You said he had all knowledge and this implies all sites in case you didn't notice.
I've posted the info on the saber duel with Luke, I won't post it again. First time, he destroys Luke in a duel and is said to have killed many other Jedi in battle...and how do we know Sidious was preparing to write more volumes? DE, the endnotes that expand on the book heavily
Quotes ?
And the notes in DE say he wanted to write one more book which is his book of monsters. He killed "many other Jedi" ? Quote's coming from where ? Because we only see Jedi killing Jedi except you want to call the 3 Jedi Sidious personally killed on his own "many".
More crap. Yeah, how would the dark Jedi be passing on non-fatal Jedi arts such as Malacia and morichro?
Yeah, how would the Dark Jedi know about ancient Jedi techniques that are stated to have been used by Dark Jedi. I don't know...
So, Sith space was in the heart of the Republic with Republic space to the north,e ast, south and west?
You did notice that they conquered a pretty huge part of the galaxy with the Republic being on the boarder of said space and the "end" of the galaxy forming the other boarders ?
Oh, so you can decide that Luke can't fight at his full power now? Fact remains: He doesn't have the same boost with Kun as when he beat Sidious.
Fact remains: He didn't receive any power boost while duelling Sidious in DE and defeating him because those are just three panels without any narration.
DE again for Sidious and the dark side and more misunderstanding of the Force!
George Lucas commentary on TPM, AotC and ROTS for any bullshit you want to feed me know. He explicitly states that every Sith unbalances the Dark Side hence the Jedi can't know if they killed the apprentice or the master. Want to contradict him now ?
And Sidious knew...every technique and aspect of the Force to that point, sith to Jedi.
Yes. He knows everything that existed - in his time.
And Palpaitne's tally is shown when he shows Luke his saber collection, all taken from the corpses of Jedi. You're trying to go agaisnt what's written again? Not surprised either.
You mean trying to argue Sidious own words ? When we know that he told lies over and over again ? How could I ? Lmao...
The people who live on conquest and blood have taken all they want? Yeah, real fearsome. And yes, it's amazing Simus could do that...until you take a look at Selestrine from Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire.
In the matter of 2,000 years which you estimate them to have existed (or which is estimated by the NEC) they have conquered hundrets of planets. Peaceful people. And Selestrine who wanted to die and for some reason couldn't ? Totally compareable to Simus who kept his head alive willfully for more than a century, yes.
So, nai, the Ancient Sith empire apparently knew every Jedi technique and Dark Side technique, developed before-and after- their empire was formed?
You mean those techniques we never see since we don't know when the used techniques were created ?
Still waiting for proof on who created all those toys and trinkets, or how they're different from technology...why a sith amulet blast would be any different than a hidden blaster.
You want proof for a single possible explanation ? Haha. Difference from a hidden blaster when Sadow calls a blaster primitive and they are electrical weapons with a source of unlimited power in the size of a gauntlet. Yes. Somebody is talking out of his ass really much here.
Sourcebook still mentions Sidious as knowing all he did
What a great sentence. Can I print that out and pin it to my wall ? Ragnos know all he did too. OMG. Boba Fett did know all he did. ARGH ! Unbelieveable !
and doing what he did
Unbelieveable too ! I can see the news right in front of my eyes: Sidious did all he did ! Wow Lightsnake. Nobody knew that before.
so spare me your attempts to get out of it and answer me this: Where are all these quotes on the godly Ancient Sith? We have some technology and their weaponry, fascinating...then there's the guy whose subordinate could manipulate solar flares effortlessly. And mastered every aspect of the darkside, and powers and techniques of the Jedi and the Sith.
You are talking about Sidious now who is just using "some technology" or Ragnos who's descriped to have a "frightening grasp on the Dark Side" buy somebody who instakilled 3 Jedi Council Members effortless with a single force attack and had his subordinates causing "death of entire star systems" (DLotS #1) ? Want to argue with hyperbolic statements and dumb feat wars ?
Physical power's great but not seeing that inferiority in Force power...or you attempting to explain why the Republic are 'monsters' to the Sith for killing Simus...
Because this was political agitation used by Sadow to make them attack the Republic ? Maybe because Simus was a talking head in a jar who didn't possibly have the ability to defend himself ?
Do you have more to downplay the Sith than trying to turn special and unique events into attempts to discredit them ? No ? Than STFU, please, idiot.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And there's alsoa thing called 'scale' when it comes to force powers, Sidious's force storm or world draining for example. And narraration. Like how Luke is described as extremely powerful.
Nihilus drained a world. Kreia descripes him as a child compared to the ancient Sith. Next.
And yes, Sadow's army was so, incredibly powerful...beaten on three planets without illusions. And Aleema and Luke make massive scale illusions, point?
They didn't produce illusions that were able to fool, attack and even kill trained Jedi. And much less they did it to create three complete armies on three different places at the same time. Point of your attempt to downplay Sadow ?
In fact, show me where Sadow's duel with Ludo was felt over the universe.
Dumbass missdirection. What does this have to do with actual power level or with Ragnos personal power. Nothing. And Odan was able to sense Ragnos passing on the other side of the Galaxy. Powerful enough ?
And Nai? Didn't you say you were finished with this debate? Feel free to make good on that promise
No. I didn't say I'm finished with this debate. I said it doesn't make any sense to argue with you. And it doesn't still make sense. On the other hand: Posting on this boards doesn't make sense either. And I still do it. See ?
And didn't I give you the hint that I'm a cynic ? So: "what do I care about my yesterday babble" (quote by Helmut Kohl, German chancelor 1982-1998).
Elaborate what you mean.
Gee, he's only using battle meditation, has .2 seconds to react while using force lightning and manages to redirect the technique he's using...and all I see from you are excuses on the Ancient Sith being 'surprised'...centuries old warriors being surprised, right?...and yes, forgotten, that's what previously unknown meant
And that's great for Quin, Dooku is leading him on the whole time. in the ROTS novelization it's revealed Dooku wants to create a new order and as Dooku describes him: "an event horizon," "absolute, perfect nothingness," "darkness beyond darkness," and "a black hole of the Force." That's not even taking into account the 'titan', and 'divinity'
Palpatine's body doesn't survive it's spirit's exit. Case in point: When Luke destroys one clone in DE, the body is reduced to death. And his body wasn't carefully preserved in Sith rituals before being entombed like Ragnos's was. And Palpatine devised his own technique, with a huge supply of backup bodies where all he had to do was give some DNA, point?
Ok, just look at Naga and Ludo's Sith swords. Tell me what they're made of. And the sun doesn't seem to shine through all those crystals in Ziost...and notice they work for combat when Naga and Ludo activate them via amulets-hence the purple glow?
Proof Sadow created that ship. Seriously, proof the Ancients constructed their own tools and weaponry. We know Tritos Nal create d Garu's Sith Sword...
All knowledge implies all sites? No, it implies all knowledge. From what he got from all said dark side worlds, holocrons and recovered artifacts. To quote: He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force
DE sourcebook, Sidious's saber collection, we know he personally dispatched Master Ashka, and it's said he pried the sabers of his collection from the dead hands of his enemies.
Yes, where have dark jedi used Malacia and Morichro? Curious now...and where was it stated the Ancient Sith ever knew them now?
Future elaboration on the Luke Sidious duel...Luke achieved what Jacen and Ganner did at that point.
No, Palpatine knew every technique and what existed...every. He mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten and devised new techniques at his leisure. Written down, thanks.
Selestrine survived as a head in a jar, point being? ...and proof they conquered hundreds of worlds?
Right, because the Sith would know Jedi techniques specifically designed for defeating enemies...like blocking...or Morichro...or Malacia.
Right, and where were entire Star Systems destroyed? Nothing on how Sidious used the greatest usage of Dark Side power ever?
Political agitation? Naga takes over in a grieving speech after one of the Sith lords declares the Republic 'monsters'...and right, the SITH are upset because someone defenseless died, that makes sense. And special and unique? Tell it to Brakiss.
Oh, right, where's Nihilius compared as a 'child?' to the Ancient Sith?
Please, when did Naga's men actually kill a SINGLE Jedi, let ALONE the illusions? Ooroo's self sacrifice doesn't count as being 'killed by illusions'
Oh, so Ragnos and Ludo fighting weren't sensed over the galaxy? Interesting. And sensed Ragnos's passing? Bull, that's been misproven...he was having nightmares about the Sith Empire, ragnos was never even HINTED at in his dreams. Once again: Waiting for where Ragnos was felt by every force sensitive over the galaxy, or described as ;divinity'...or a 'titan'