Marka Ragnos vs DN Luke and DE Sidious

Gee, he's only using battle meditation, has .2 seconds to react while using force lightning and manages to redirect the technique he's using...and all I see from you are excuses on the Ancient Sith being 'surprised'...centuries old warriors being surprised, right?...and yes, forgotten, that's what previously unknown meant

Previously Unknown does not equal forgotten. Previously unknown means what is previously unknown. This is impossible, he would not have known techniques that weren't even invented, or techniques that were destroyed.

Again, "all known, forgotten, and previously unknown" does not mean "all known, all forgotten, and all previously unknown." I do hope you have enough experience in literature to know the difference. The modifier is not necessarily carried over. And again, considering Sidious never used these abilities, you're arguing with your own logic.

And that's great for Quin, Dooku is leading him on the whole time. in the ROTS novelization it's revealed Dooku wants to create a new order and as Dooku describes him: "an event horizon," "absolute, perfect nothingness," "darkness beyond darkness," and "a black hole of the Force." That's not even taking into account the 'titan', and 'divinity'

Which... doesn't establish anything.

These aren't comparatives. Being "the most powerful of the most powerful" and making those of another era "look like children" are comparatives.

Ok, just look at Naga and Ludo's Sith swords. Tell me what they're made of. And the sun doesn't seem to shine through all those crystals in Ziost...and notice they work for combat when Naga and Ludo activate them via amulets-hence the purple glow?

They don't look like they're made of "crystal" to me. It's not referenced as much in the comics. JK:JA has Ragnos' sword made of metal. The chronology never says anything about them being made of crystal.

Proof Sadow created that ship. Seriously, proof the Ancients constructed their own tools and weaponry. We know Tritos Nal create d Garu's Sith Sword...

Yes, we all know you'd rather assume they found them on the ground. What, you want the comics to show them working in the forge instead of waging battles?

They are described possessively in a variety of sources, most all Sith Lords had them, they weren't found on the ground.

Ok... prove Sidious had all force powers. Where did he execute them?

All knowledge implies all sites? No, it implies all knowledge. From what he got from all said dark side worlds, holocrons and recovered artifacts. To quote: He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force

And Kun apparently mastered "all" too. Sidious wasn't shown to apply "all" of the force.

And wonderful, you can redirect the question. The point is that the knowledge was DESTROYED on Ossus and Malachor V. Where did Sidious get DESTROYED information?

Yes, where have dark jedi used Malacia and Morichro? Curious now...and where was it stated the Ancient Sith ever knew them now?

And this is relevant how?

Yaddle knew Morichro, will she beat the Ancient Sith too? Bullshit.

No, Palpatine knew every technique and what existed...every. He mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten and devised new techniques at his leisure. Written down, thanks.

Look up hyperbole, please.

Even if he did master them, he had decades, possibly centuries less time than the ancient Sith to master them. He never used them. Again, don't argue with your own logic. And stop being one-sided.

Selestrine survived as a head in a jar, point being? ...and proof they conquered hundreds of worlds?

Sadow said each of the Sith Lords had "dozens" of worlds.

Right, and where were entire Star Systems destroyed? Nothing on how Sidious used the greatest usage of Dark Side power ever?

One that is in the TOTJ companion and the Ancient Sith were aware of. Great.

Political agitation? Naga takes over in a grieving speech after one of the Sith lords declares the Republic 'monsters'...and right, the SITH are upset because someone defenseless died, that makes sense. And special and unique? Tell it to Brakiss.

And there response is to gather their forces and launch a grand attack against the Republic.

Stop trying to use more irrelevant misdirection. If I had to point out every one of your logical fallacies, I'd need several posts do it.

For the last time: DEBATE WITH CONSISTENT LOGIC, OR DON'T BOTHER.

Oh, right, where's Nihilius compared as a 'child?' to the Ancient Sith?

Did you play KotOR?

Please, when did Naga's men actually kill a SINGLE Jedi, let ALONE the illusions? Ooroo's self sacrifice doesn't count as being 'killed by illusions'

When did they reference anyone killed? I suppose now you want to us to believe that the army and the Jedi were just about to give Coruscant to the Sith. I suppose that them breaking the line at Cinnagar was because not one of the defenders died.

More irrelevant misdirection?

Oh, so Ragnos and Ludo fighting weren't sensed over the galaxy? Interesting. And sensed Ragnos's passing? Bull, that's been misproven...he was having nightmares about the Sith Empire, ragnos was never even HINTED at in his dreams. Once again: Waiting for where Ragnos was felt by every force sensitive over the galaxy, or described as ;divinity'...or a 'titan'

You mean that the damn picture of Marka Ragnos means he wasn't sensed?

Genius. When was Sidious mentioned as being able to make the Jedi of an entire era "look like children." What kind of retard argument is this? "Let's compare adjectives because I can't stop getting owned?" Your fanboyism knows no bounds.

Illustriapwnt.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Elaborate what you mean.

Lets see:
"Marka Ragnos ruled the Sith Empire with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful." The same text can be found at the back of the TPB edition of GAotS.

Gee, he's only using battle meditation, has .2 seconds to react while using force lightning and manages to redirect the technique he's using...

And again: If he can instantly kill why he didn't do it ? And he did "redirect" the lightning. Haha. It was just casually hitting Vader as you can see some lightning archs bending away from him.

and all I see from you are excuses on the Ancient Sith being 'surprised'...centuries old warriors being surprised, right?

All I see from you are irrelevant missdirections. Proof that Dor Gal-Ram was "centuries" old. Estabilsh how powerful he was compared to Sadow, Kressh and Ragnos. Obviously he was below Sadow and Kressh since he didn't claim the title of the Dark Lord for himself. And we know that Sadow and Kressh were inferior to Ragnos.

...and yes, forgotten, that's what previously unknown meant

No. "Forgotten" means that something was known and then forgotten while "previously unknown" means that it was unknown and then invented.

And that's great for Quin, Dooku is leading him on the whole time. in the ROTS novelization it's revealed Dooku wants to create a new order and as Dooku describes him: "an event horizon," "absolute, perfect nothingness," "darkness beyond darkness," and "a black hole of the Force." That's not even taking into account the 'titan', and 'divinity'

As Illustrious has already told you: Those aren't comparatives. In fact this is only a description of Sidious ability to hide his presence in the force and the same thing was done by Dooku himself, Maul and even Asajj Ventress.

Palpatine's body doesn't survive it's spirit's exit. Case in point: When Luke destroys one clone in DE, the body is reduced to death. And his body wasn't carefully preserved in Sith rituals before being entombed like Ragnos's was. And Palpatine devised his own technique, with a huge supply of backup bodies where all he had to do was give some DNA, point?

Let's just ignore that Sidious clone bodies aren't able to store his power like his original body was able to and therefore are aging up to death in the matter of months / years. Great invention that was.

Ok, just look at Naga and Ludo's Sith swords. Tell me what they're made of. And the sun doesn't seem to shine through all those crystals in Ziost...and notice they work for combat when Naga and Ludo activate them via amulets-hence the purple glow?

"Crystal" is a description for the form of a material and not a description of a material and the swords aren't made out of crystals. In fact all Sith swords that can be found are made out of metal (see Ajunta Pall's blade and Naga Sadow's blade in the KotoR games and Ragnos' blade in JK:JA). And the DS Sourcebook statest that the power of the user is focused through the blade to equip it with additional sharpness.

Proof Sadow created that ship. Seriously, proof the Ancients constructed their own tools and weaponry. We know Tritos Nal create d Garu's Sith Sword...

Irrelevant missdirection. Tritos Nal was another Ancient Sith so the origin of Garu's Sith sword is still "ancient Sith". We also know that Ajunta Pall created his own sword and was burried with it, as well as we know that all Ancient Sith were burried with their weapons and other artifacts because Revan later was able to plunder the tombs.

So unless you want to tell me that the ancient Sith were a species of tomb raiders who first burried their leaders with their artifacts and then broke into the tombs to steal said artifacts again the only explanation left is that they created the stuff that they own and use.

All knowledge implies all sites? No, it implies all knowledge. From what he got from all said dark side worlds, holocrons and recovered artifacts. To quote: He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force

We know that parts of the knowledge on Malachor V and Ossus was completely destroyed. So...

DE sourcebook, Sidious's saber collection, we know he personally dispatched Master Ashka, and it's said he pried the sabers of his collection from the dead hands of his enemies.

Wow. He personally killed somebody who was brought as a prisoner before him. *clap* Oh this greatness and power. It doesn't say that he personally killed Jedi in direct confrontation which would pretty much contradict the description of Vader saying that he was responsible for killing the survivors of the Purge.

Yes, where have dark jedi used Malacia and Morichro? Curious now...and where was it stated the Ancient Sith ever knew them now?

The arts were ancient and because of their nature considered to be "forbidden" Jedi arts. The point is that I don't see a lightside force user developing techniques like this and it's again a completely irrelevant missdirection.

No, Palpatine knew every technique and what existed...every. He mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten and devised new techniques at his leisure. Written down, thanks.

Yes he knew everything that existed in his era which logically can't include things that were forgotten much less stuff that was destroyed.

Selestrine survived as a head in a jar, point being? ...and proof they conquered hundreds of worlds?

The point is that he didn't want to survive so this isn't something that was done by her own power while Simus used his own power to stay alive as a head in a jar for more than a century. That's the point.
And proof that they conquered hundreds of worlds ? Sadow says that every member of the Sith Council rules over "dozens" of worlds. Their are 10 people in the Sith Council and "dozens" are at least 24 meaning they had at least control over 240 planets.

Right, because the Sith would know Jedi techniques specifically designed for defeating enemies...like blocking...or Morichro...or Malacia.

The Sith were the descendants of Dark Jedi who did participate in a war against the other Jedi. So obviously they did know Jedi techniques since they are part of their heritage - especially such that are designed for defeating people.

Right, and where were entire Star Systems destroyed? Nothing on how Sidious used the greatest usage of Dark Side power ever?

Aleema Keto used Sadow's ship to destroy the entire Cron Cluster in case you didn't notice. And Sidious force storm is "estimated" to have been the greates usage of Dark Side power ever which is far from a definitive comment on this issue.

Political agitation? Naga takes over in a grieving speech after one of the Sith lords declares the Republic 'monsters'...and right, the SITH are upset because someone defenseless died, that makes sense. And special and unique? Tell it to Brakiss.

The Sith are upset because some people have come to their space, saying they just want to "trade" with them and then apparently killed one of their leaders - and the most defenceless of them. What would you call people who did something like that ?

Oh, right, where's Nihilius compared as a 'child?' to the Ancient Sith?

KotoR II - Kreia's own words. And she is the person who trained Nihilus. There you go.

Please, when did Naga's men actually kill a SINGLE Jedi, let ALONE the illusions? Ooroo's self sacrifice doesn't count as being 'killed by illusions'

You did notice how Sadow's troops were about to win on all planets. You did also notice that Ooroo had to sacrifice himself only because of the fact that even Battle Meditation used against them wasn't enough to stop the Sith from winning the battle on Kirrek ? Or did you just miss that fact ? And this battle was only led by one of the minor Sith Lords against two Jedi (Ooroo, Odan-Urr) while one of them was using battle meditation and still the Sith were about to win.

Oh, so Ragnos and Ludo fighting weren't sensed over the galaxy?

You mean Sadow and Ludo ? Oh the fighting was just intensive enough to cause Ragnos coming back from the grave and lecturing them.

And sensed Ragnos's passing? Bull, that's been misproven...he was having nightmares about the Sith Empire, ragnos was never even HINTED at in his dreams.

No. We just see Ragnos passing into his grave and then Odan wakes up with the comment that "the force is trembeling". No. Not even a hint of Ragnos. Lmao.

Once again: Waiting for where Ragnos was felt by every force sensitive over the galaxy, or described as ;divinity'...or a 'titan'

Kreia descripes the ancient Sith as a whole as "titanic" and "godlike", says that they would make people from her era "look like children" and descripes Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening". Then see the quote at the beginning of this post which calls Ragnos "the most powerful of the most powerful" as well as "the Dark Lord of the Sith". Add Luke's suggestion that it would take the combined power of all the Jedi in the Academy to try and stop a living Ragnos. Is that enough now ?

Originally posted by Illustrious
Previously Unknown does not equal forgotten. Previously unknown means what is previously [b]unknown. This is impossible, he would not have known techniques that weren't even invented, or techniques that were destroyed.

Again, "all known, forgotten, and previously unknown" does not mean "all known, all forgotten, and all previously unknown." I do hope you have enough experience in literature to know the difference. The modifier is not necessarily carried over. And again, considering Sidious never used these abilities, you're arguing with your own logic.

Which... doesn't establish anything.

These aren't comparatives. Being "the most powerful of the most powerful" and making those of another era "look like children" are comparatives.

They don't look like they're made of "crystal" to me. It's not referenced as much in the comics. JK:JA has Ragnos' sword made of metal. The chronology never says anything about them being made of crystal.

Yes, we all know you'd rather assume they found them on the ground. What, you want the comics to show them working in the forge instead of waging battles?

They are described possessively in a variety of sources, most all Sith Lords had them, they weren't found on the ground.

Ok... prove Sidious had all force powers. Where did he execute them?

And Kun apparently mastered "all" too. Sidious wasn't shown to apply "all" of the force.

And wonderful, you can redirect the question. The point is that the knowledge was DESTROYED on Ossus and Malachor V. Where did Sidious get DESTROYED information?

And this is relevant how?

Yaddle knew Morichro, will she beat the Ancient Sith too? Bullshit.

Look up hyperbole, please.

Even if he did master them, he had decades, possibly centuries less time than the ancient Sith to master them. He never used them. Again, don't argue with your own logic. And stop being one-sided.

Sadow said each of the Sith Lords had "dozens" of worlds.

One that is in the TOTJ companion and the Ancient Sith were aware of. Great.

And there response is to gather their forces and launch a grand attack against the Republic.

Stop trying to use more irrelevant misdirection. If I had to point out every one of your logical fallacies, I'd need several posts do it.

For the last time: DEBATE WITH CONSISTENT LOGIC, OR DON'T BOTHER.

Did you play KotOR?

When did they reference anyone killed? I suppose now you want to us to believe that the army and the Jedi were just about to give Coruscant to the Sith. I suppose that them breaking the line at Cinnagar was because not one of the defenders died.

More irrelevant misdirection?

You mean that the damn picture of Marka Ragnos means he wasn't sensed?

Genius. When was Sidious mentioned as being able to make the Jedi of an entire era "look like children." What kind of retard argument is this? "Let's compare adjectives because I can't stop getting owned?" Your fanboyism knows no bounds. [/B]

Actually, gramtically, Illustrious, yes it does, especially when it also says he had mastered every technique and strength of the jedi and the Sith and all aspects of the force...yes, he knew them.

Key words about Marka: "Of that era."

Look at the scene where Ludo smacks his sword against the ground...and KOTOR has Sith Swords as long, double bladed pikes, what would JK:JA have to do with this?

We know at least one of the Council Sith comissioned another to create his weapons...Garu, and two if we count Bo Vanda going to Kla.

Neither Kun nor anyone else was ever described to have mastered 'all' of the aforementioned, nor 'every aspect of the force and every power of the Jedi and the Sith'

And once more...a site being destroyed means the knowledge can't exist anywhere else? Repeat: Holocrons.

Where is Nihilius directly referred to as a child to the Ancients? Define the 'us' Kreia was talking about.

Sadow was talking to....four Sith lords? Incluing Sadow that's sixty...so, counting Ludo and the other two...that's about 96 worlds. And it was 'a dozen', not dozens. That's considerably less than 'hundreds'

The Kashi system going nova was in no way even related to the Ancient Sith.

The Ancient Sith need to be tricked by the death of one of their own to launch an attack.

Point out ONE CASUALTY of those 'illusions able to kill people.' Except for Ooroo, not a Jedi died.

We see ODan having a nightmare of the Sith Empire, Ragnos is never even hinted at...ODan even says 'what have I forseen?'

Alright, what's better...'tremendeous power'...or 'godlike power'. Yeah, by all means keep trying the adjectives.

Lets see:
"Marka Ragnos ruled the Sith Empire with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful." The same text can be found at the back of the TPB edition of GAotS.
And clarified to mean 'of that era'

And again: If he can instantly kill why he didn't do it ? And he did "redirect" the lightning. Haha. It was just casually hitting Vader as you can see some lightning archs bending away from him.
ROTJ novelization disagrees with you. As do the character guides

All I see from you are irrelevant missdirections. Proof that Dor Gal-Ram was "centuries" old. Estabilsh how powerful he was compared to Sadow, Kressh and Ragnos. Obviously he was below Sadow and Kressh since he didn't claim the title of the Dark Lord for himself. And we know that Sadow and Kressh were inferior to Ragnos.
Character Guide, Naga is described as, with the other Sith lords as preserving his life for a century...and considering every last Ancient Sith is powerful and godly...

No. "Forgotten" means that something was known and then forgotten while "previously unknown" means that it was unknown and then invented.
And forgotten is mentioned as well

As Illustrious has already told you: Those aren't comparatives. In fact this is only a description of Sidious ability to hide his presence in the force and the same thing was done by Dooku himself, Maul and even Asajj Ventress.
Neither of whom were able to do so several blocks from the Jedi temple or to the entire order. Sidious taught Dooku Quey'Tek and he taught Ventress. Maul described Sidious's power as able to cloak the power of the Sith from their enemies from literally inches away.

Let's just ignore that Sidious clone bodies aren't able to store his power like his original body was able to and therefore are aging up to death in the matter of months / years. Great invention that was.
Yeah, proof? All you have is the one clone that was sabatoged. All other clones work fine.

"Crystal" is a description for the form of a material and not a description of a material and the swords aren't made out of crystals. In fact all Sith swords that can be found are made out of metal (see Ajunta Pall's blade and Naga Sadow's blade in the KotoR games and Ragnos' blade in JK:JA). And the DS Sourcebook statest that the power of the user is focused through the blade to equip it with additional sharpness.
Fine, metal. I got a bit confused when we see Naga's sword looking rather similar to the crystal formations at Ziost. And also, we don't see the blade cut through the wall, just that it hits the wall when Ludo swings it...I think the Ancient Sith might be annoyed about dueling lords hacking through the recently established grand tomb of their greatest Dark Lord.

Irrelevant missdirection. Tritos Nal was another Ancient Sith so the origin of Garu's Sith sword is still "ancient Sith". We also know that Ajunta Pall created his own sword and was burried with it, as well as we know that all Ancient Sith were burried with their weapons and other artifacts because Revan later was able to plunder the tombs.

So unless you want to tell me that the ancient Sith were a species of tomb raiders who first burried their leaders with their artifacts and then broke into the tombs to steal said artifacts again the only explanation left is that they created the stuff that they own and use.

My point is, we have several examples of Sith comissioning others to build their weaponry. My point is, the Ancient Sith didn't necessarily create their weaponry themselves, as opposed to getting forgemasters and alchemists and the like

We know that parts of the knowledge on Malachor V and Ossus was completely destroyed. So...
According to complete Locations, Sidious got his hands on what was stored at Yavin 4, so that accounts for knowledge from Ossus-Kun's ghost is never mentioned, however- and a site of the Ancient Sith doesn't mean the knowledge itself wasn't replicated elsewhere. Sidious still managed to get his hands on quite a few Sith holocrons.

Wow. He personally killed somebody who was brought as a prisoner before him. *clap* Oh this greatness and power. It doesn't say that he personally killed Jedi in direct confrontation which would pretty much contradict the description of Vader saying that he was responsible for killing the survivors of the Purge.
Vader handled the bulk of the purge, but Sidious was referred to as killing quite a few Jedi himself. And Tremayne and his fellow Inquisitors certainly accounted for some of the Jedi...Tremayne killed Shelvay's master for example-the Sullustan, forgot his name.

The arts were ancient and because of their nature considered to be "forbidden" Jedi arts. The point is that I don't see a lightside force user developing techniques like this and it's again a completely irrelevant missdirection.
The techniques are still designed to neutralize enemies without violence...why would the destructive fallen Jedi even bother with them, or get around to pasing them on to the Sith?

Yes he knew everything that existed in his era which logically can't include things that were forgotten much less stuff that was destroyed.
No, it was 'ever' and that was made extremely clear. Mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten, and invents new ones and his leisure, later stated he had mastered every power of the Jedi and the Sith, and every aspect of the Force. 'In his era?' come on...what happened to those Sith holocrons and artifacts then? Did he learn nothing from Ziost, Korriban, Had Abaddon?

The point is that he didn't [b]want to survive so this isn't something that was done by her own power while Simus used his own power to stay alive as a head in a jar for more than a century. That's the point.
And proof that they conquered hundreds of worlds ? Sadow says that every member of the Sith Council rules over "dozens" of worlds. Their are 10 people in the Sith Council and "dozens" are at least 24 meaning they had at least control over 240 planets.
[/B]
Sadow says each rules a 'dozen' in reference to four Sith lords kneeling before him...with himself and Kressh, that would make around 96 (I'm including Horak and Dor)
And fine, admitted on the Simus point.

The Sith were the descendants of Dark Jedi who did participate in a war against the other Jedi. So obviously they did know Jedi techniques since they are part of their heritage - especially such that are designed for defeating people.
The point was the Dark Jedi went dark and began using the force in destructive ways....and over two thousand years, their teachings kept constant?

Aleema Keto used Sadow's ship to destroy the entire Cron Cluster in case you didn't notice. And Sidious force storm is "estimated" to have been the greates usage of Dark Side power ever which is far from a definitive comment on this issue.
Where was it just 'estimated' now? And yes, Sadow's ship. Once more, technology isn't a substitute of power.'

The Sith are upset because some people have come to their space, saying they just want to "trade" with them and then apparently killed one of their leaders - and the most defenceless of them. What would you call people who did something like that ?
Like the Sith weren't killing defenseless people when they chucked the slave women into Ragnos's tomb and sealed it? Especially with the speech Naga gives on Simus, his wisdom and nobility...why is the comment of nobility not being laughed out of the room?

KotoR II - Kreia's own words. And she is the person who trained Nihilus. There you go.
According to KReia, Nihilius is something very special and a threat to all life...where does she call him a child in comparison?

You did notice how Sadow's troops were about to win on all planets. You did also notice that Ooroo had to sacrifice himself only because of the fact that even Battle Meditation used against them wasn't enough to stop the Sith from winning the battle on Kirrek ? Or did you just miss that fact ? And this battle was only led by one of the minor Sith Lords against two Jedi (Ooroo, Odan-Urr) while one of them was using battle meditation and still the Sith were about to win.
I also noticed how Odan was standing around being useless...ODan said his BM wasn't enough to sway the single minded fury of the Massassi...and the moment the illusions vanished, the tides turned. The comic said it was about to fall to overwhelming numbers.

You mean Sadow and Ludo ? Oh the fighting was just intensive enough to cause Ragnos coming back from the grave and lecturing them.
That's 'across the galaxy'? And the point was Ragnos wanted them to band together to preserve the empire, not tear it apart.

No. We just see Ragnos passing into his grave and then Odan wakes up with the comment that "the force is trembeling". No. Not even a hint of Ragnos. Lmao.
Quote: "What have I forseen?" He has nightmares about the Sith empire, when does he ever even hint about Ragnos?

Kreia descripes the ancient Sith as a whole as "titanic" and "godlike", says that they would make people from her era "look like children" and descripes Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening".
And it was confirmed that just meant in Ragnos's era, Luke is talking about stopping Ragnos's forces and ressurection-and Luke is suddenly a great source on long dead Sith? And the Academy to every Jedi who ever lived? Palpatine's power is described as 'godlike' and as a'divinity' and the 'manifestation of the darkness', and 'darkness beyond darkness'...where was this godlike comment?

Really Lightsnake your just repeating yourself over and over again, its rather quite amusing watching you debate every point with assumptions, feat wars and in general terms logical fallacy.

Sooner or later you will go back into hibernation.

Actually, LightSnake does make some good points. But some of his other ones are ridiculous.

Pwnt

Actually, gramtically, Illustrious, yes it does, especially when it also says he had mastered every technique and strength of the jedi and the Sith and all aspects of the force...yes, he knew them.

Grammatically, no it doesn't. Stylistically, no it wouldn't. The line would read "all known, all unknown, and all forgotten" if it were the case. Not only is the latter unambiguous, it is grammatically correct, stylistically more powerful, and puts the emphasis on all.

Combine that with the logical impossibility of him knowing it all, the difference between knowing and the capacity for usage and the fact that Sidious did not use them all means a defeated point, sorry.

Look at the scene where Ludo smacks his sword against the ground...and KOTOR has Sith Swords as long, double bladed pikes, what would JK:JA have to do with this?

KotOR has all the swords being metal, Ragnos' blade in JK:JA is shown as metal. So you're saying Ludo is the only one with a crystal sword? They aren't crystal. There is no mention to them being crystal whatsoever. End of story.

Where is Nihilius directly referred to as a child to the Ancients? Define the 'us' Kreia was talking about.

I believe the term was "of our era." Nihilus obviously existed during her era.

Sadow was talking to....four Sith lords? Incluing Sadow that's sixty...so, counting Ludo and the other two...that's about 96 worlds. And it was 'a dozen', not dozens. That's considerably less than 'hundreds'

Did you not notice the screen when the other sith lords were crowning him the Dark Lord? There were 8 or so there.

We see ODan having a nightmare of the Sith Empire, Ragnos is never even hinted at...ODan even says 'what have I forseen?'

We see Odan having a nightmare and the image he is depicted with is Ragnos.

And it was confirmed that just meant in Ragnos's era, Luke is talking about stopping Ragnos's forces and ressurection-and Luke is suddenly a great source on long dead Sith? And the Academy to every Jedi who ever lived? Palpatine's power is described as 'godlike' and as a'divinity' and the 'manifestation of the darkness', and 'darkness beyond darkness'...where was this godlike comment?

Now you're the final aribter on Luke's comment?

Luke says, "If Ragnos is resurrected...., we would need all of our strength to stop him."

Since when does Kreia calling them "titanic" and "making us look like children" mean just that era?

~*~*~*

Let's see the error in your arguments:

1. Illogical use of canon.

"All known, previously unknown, and forgotten."

You suddenly become a loose constructionist for Sidious. The modifying "all" is not even carried over, and your belief is that Sidious knew all of them. You're suddenly using logical extrapolation for Sidious.

"Ragnos' sword, Sadow's ship, Sadow's amulet, etc."

Suddenly, even though they're possessive not one of them made their artifacts. Somehow, they all found these immensely powerful weapons on the ground.

You switch over and become a strict constructionist with these arguments. If it's not explicitly mentioned in the comics, it didn't happen for the ancient Sith.

Biased argument.

2. Illogical interpretation on canon.

DE, written before TOTJ, is untouchable. Even the DE sourcebook, a sourcebook for an RPG is completely passable. However, the story parts of the TOTJ companion, the NEC, and TOTJ itself clearly is not.

"There must be a retcon."

Sorry, if anything, DE was retconned. TOTJ was written afterwards and mentions that even Jedi knew of Force Storm. Fact.

"The EC says..."

It doesn't matter if the EC says it. The New Essential Chronology mentions it. "Sith Sorcery" is not technology. TOTJ also mentions the same, Sith Sorcery are dark side techniques of the Sith.

3. Use of Hyperbole.

Apparently, since the words "titan" and "divinity" were used, it means that no one can be compared to Sidious unless the same words were used.

Luke, another "titan" and "divinity" -- several years after he bested Sidious, no less -- was given all he could handle against the 4000 year old, half-mad ionized air particles of Exar Kun.

Such wonderful application of "titan" and "divinity."

4. No Logical Support.

You still did not account for the fact that Exar Kun became the most powerful force in the galaxy because of Sadow's notes. You did not account for Revan, Traya, Nihilus, and Sion raiding some remnant knowledge from the Ancient Sith and literally terrorizing the galaxy. You did not account for Freedon Nadd who learned from Sadow and was able to cast a pall on a planet of centuries, even after his death.

You assume that all the knowledge, despite them being "hunted to extinction," still exits.

You assume that Sidious knew Sith Sorcery and other long destroyed techniques.

You belittle the accomplishments of the Ancient Sith while you attempt -- rather shoddily -- to cover up for Sidious, such as:

"The Ancient Sith were owned by a few slaves."

But somehow, the argument, "Palpatine was benchpressed helplessly into a Reactor Core by a beaten, one-armed cyborg" doesn't count.

You compare the Ancient Sith's low showings to Sidious' best. Then you hide behind "there's no evidence" and act as if that's proof.

5. Logical Fallacies.

Irrelevant Misdirection. Begging the Question. Strawman Argument. Appeal to Belief. Burden of Proof. Confusing Cause and Effect. Hasty Generalization. Red Herring. Slippery Slope.

And that's just from the last few posts. Sorry, this ain't fly.

very nice..

Nicely said, Illustrious.

I'm surprised he mentioned the issue with Odan-Urr not seeing Ragnos when you SHOWED him the scan last time (I have the post in my profile quotes even, complete with the image) and I posted it again just yesterday.

I kept saying that Odan saw Ragnos, I don't see why lightsnake was arguing with scans.

It's that new SW canon policy- if you don't want to see it, it's not there.

touche

[QUOTE=6461105]Originally posted by Illustrious
Grammatically, no it doesn't. Stylistically, no it wouldn't. The line would read "all known, all unknown, and all forgotten" if it were the case. Not only is the latter unambiguous, it is grammatically correct, stylistically more powerful, and puts the emphasis on [b]all.

Combine that with the logical impossibility of him knowing it all, the difference between knowing and the capacity for usage and the fact that Sidious did not use them all means a defeated point, sorry.[/B]
An what does 'mastered' mean?

KotOR has all the swords being metal, Ragnos' blade in JK:JA is shown as metal. So you're saying Ludo is the only one with a crystal sword? They aren't crystal. There is [b]no mention to them being crystal whatsoever. End of story.[/B]
I already conceded this point, and pointed to the original comic

I believe the term was "of our era." Nihilus obviously existed during her era.
And who was the 'we' of her sentence? Nor was Nihilius the norm by any stretch of the imagination

Did you not notice the screen when the other sith lords were crowning him the Dark Lord? There were 8 or so there.

That's why I said 96

We see Odan having a nightmare and the image he is depicted with is [b]Ragnos.[/B]
The entirety of Odan's mentioned nightmares involve the Sith Empire...and this is after Ragnos is dead. Either way, though, it's a far cry from his death being felt across the galaxy. Sorgo and I argued this against TdTd a while back, who thought Ragnos's 'passing as a ghost' caused his nightmares

Now you're the final aribter on Luke's comment?

Luke says, "[b]If Ragnos is resurrected...., we would need all of our strength to stop him."[/B]
He says 'will', after he discusses the battle plans and talks about stopping Ragnos's ressurection. The exact quote is: "If Ragnos is ressurected there's no telling what he might do. It will take all of our strength/forces (forgot which) to stop him."

Since when does Kreia calling them "titanic" and "making us look like children" mean just that era?
Since that's the only era Kreia's lived in?

"All known, previously unknown, and forgotten."

You suddenly become a loose constructionist for Sidious. The modifying "all" is not even carried over, and your belief is that Sidious knew all of them. You're suddenly using logical [b]extrapolation for Sidious.[/B]
And it says he 'mastered' the said...and what else would all mean? Why exactly would it not apply? All at the beginning of the sentence, grammatically would apply to the rest, unless a 'some' or something is added

"Ragnos' sword, Sadow's ship, Sadow's amulet, etc."

Suddenly, even though they're possessive not one of them made their artifacts. Somehow, they all found these immensely powerful weapons on the ground.
I repeat: Is it definite they made them instead of comissioning a forgemaster or alchemist? The Falcon is frequently called 'Han's ship' and he didn't make it.

You switch over and become a [b]strict constructionist with these arguments. If it's not explicitly mentioned in the comics, it didn't happen for the ancient Sith.

Biased argument.
[/B]
Fine, I'll stop then, I admit it, you're correct here and it is wrong of me.

2. Illogical interpretation on canon.

DE, written before TOTJ, is untouchable. Even the DE sourcebook, a sourcebook for an RPG is completely passable. However, the story parts of the TOTJ companion, the NEC, and TOTJ itself clearly is not.

Illustrious, the author of the NEC clarified things, that's enough on that for me. And LFL itself retconned a part of TOTJ and the companion...plus, there's little to nothing in the DE sources that've been contradicted.

"There must be a retcon."

Sorry, if anything, DE was retconned. TOTJ was written afterwards and mentions that even [b]Jedi knew of Force Storm. Fact.
[/B]
And the DE handbook mentions no other force users than Palpatine have exhibited the FS

"The EC says..."

It doesn't matter if the EC says it. The New Essential Chronology mentions it. "Sith Sorcery" is not technology. TOTJ also mentions the same, Sith Sorcery are dark side techniques of the Sith.

And the NEC doesn't contradict the earlier source. I was arguing on Primus Guuld, not the Denarii, I conceded the Denarii part

3. Use of Hyperbole.

Apparently, since the words "titan" and "divinity" were used, it means that no one can be compared to Sidious unless the same words were used.

Luke, another "titan" and "divinity" -- several years after he bested Sidious, no less -- was given all he could handle against the 4000 year old, half-mad ionized air particles of Exar Kun.
You mean 'being attacked from both sides by Kyp Durron and Exar Kun who appeared seconds ago while Luke himself said he didn't want to fight Kyp?. And Luke's power was the same as Jacen's in DE, it lasted until Sidious was bested.

Such wonderful application of "titan" and "divinity."
Oh, as opposed to tremendous and frightening? Goes both ways.

4. No Logical Support.

You still did not account for the fact that Exar Kun became the most powerful force in the galaxy because of Sadow's notes. You did not account for Revan, Traya, Nihilus, and Sion raiding some remnant knowledge from the Ancient Sith and literally terrorizing the galaxy. You did not account for Freedon Nadd who learned from Sadow and was able to cast a pall on a planet of centuries, even after his death.

You assume that all the knowledge, despite them being "hunted to extinction," still exits.
What SPELL did Nadd cast? The dark side presence was because of his descendants continuously studying Sith magic. Nihilius and Sion also had abilities that had nothing to do with the Ancient.s..Nihilius's hunger, Sion's patchwork frame and his assassin gang...we know Sidious discovered a well of information from Sadow's notes and artifacts, among many other Ancient Sith, including their holocrons. Exar Kun was also a formidable force even before he picked up on the Sith teachings, and he had several years worth of study.

You assume that Sidious knew Sith Sorcery and other long destroyed techniques.
Pretty much because it's stated he did

You belittle the accomplishments of the Ancient Sith while you attempt -- rather shoddily -- to cover up for Sidious, such as:

"The Ancient Sith were owned by a few slaves."

But somehow, the argument, "Palpatine was benchpressed helplessly into a Reactor Core by a beaten, one-armed cyborg" doesn't count.

You compare the Ancient Sith's low showings to Sidious' best. Then you hide behind "there's no evidence" and act as if that's proof.
Fine, you're right. This is something I'll stop as well. However, like Sidious's screw ups, there are quite a few the Ancients need to answer for. The movies make it abundantly clear Sidious has numerous weaknesses: Overconfidence, extreme arrogance, god-complex, a complete lack of understanding love and devotion...his defeat by Vader was his error, Luke made his weakness clear earlier.

Thank you, Illustrious, you're absolutely right. I'll attempt to stop screwing up so much and stop the fanboyism that's been rampant in my arguments...only thing though: Did the TOTJ companion come out before or after GAOTS and FoTS?

Lightsnake, how many times have you heard "You are wrong" in a given day?

Let me put it this way, Td...when a person who claims a ghost can 'pass' says something, they tend to be ignored

Right, by you... Not by anybody else.. Wake up lightsnake, you were the only one with the problem, nobody else.. Good try though

Dude, sorgo was ripping into you on that

Sure he was... Whatever you say lightsnake.