Yoda versus Mace Windu

What is there to answer? I just stated that basically Yoda threw a lot more back at Palp's face. I'm aknowledging the fact that Sidious did suprise him and catch him off guard both times, but Yoda did a lot more of it. I think you're reading my statements to quickly. Take your time.

We dont see Sidious without a lightsaber for half the duel, we can assume he was disarmed. The script even says it. He coulden't overcome yoda with the force. His strong point. This leads me to believe Yoda is better than the movie showed him. If Yoda did indeed disarm him, then that totally destroys the argument that he was equal to him.

The script is a bit shaky at times... It could be correct, though.

Again, Yoda may be a bit better than Palpatine, but it's hardly anything worth taking to the bank. They're close in power; you can at least give me that.

I agree, that Palpatine is no push over. He is powerful. And I mean with the dark side of the force. What you guys state is that him and Yoda are equals which cant be true IF yoda disarmed him in lightsaber combat. With the force he is quite powerful, but can't really muster anything to overcome yoda. He tried pods, lightning, other things...and Yoda countered most of them.

We dont see him pull out his lightsaber throughout the rest of the fight, and since the script is second highest canon. The movies being first, then we can "logically" assume Yoda did successfully disarm him.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Mace Windu invented and mastered the greatest (imo) and deadliest saber form (this is said in many different sources, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perceptions. Vaapad was a 'completion' of Juyo, which was considered as great as Makashi (the saber form bred for dueling) in terms of dueling and overall imo was one of the greatest forms. Vaapad completed it with the addition of a few manoeuvres and the nature of Vaapad was to rely on your inner darkness and enjoy the duel with passion (Mace Windu was very dark inside)).

Only a few ever mastered it without falling to the darkside, and the fact that Mace not only mastered it but created it implies an extremely strong willpower and great control over emotions. It is the darkest form and most aggressive, and Mace Windu was The Master of it, yet he has proven that he can defend exceptionally as well. This is when he dueled palpatine, and seeing as both of their forms were extremely aggressive and overwhelming, he knew that he had to be careful and insure that their styles wouldn't clash in an unpredictable way, so he instead decided to battle in a defencive stance and was still able to defeat Palpatine (the same guy who was able to kill 3 jedi masters in about 4 seconds). People would argue that Palpatine faked it and went easy on him but the way I saw it, palpatine wasn't powerful enough to be able to plan and predict getting disarmed by Mace. That and GL basically confirmed that Mace won because he was more powerful.

His unique shatterpoint ability enabled him to sense weaknesses in his opponents and solutions to every battle.

His advance battle precognition ability enabled him to always predict his opponent's next move and made him virtually invincible.

He is stated in several sources to be a saber prodigy and one of the greatest the order had ever seen, and when compared to Yoda, he is considered the most powerful while Yoda was considered the wisest (however Mace was also very wise, Yoda was the only jedi that was wiser).

He was also the physically strongest and fastest jedi, and extremely strong in the force (he displays this in the CW cartoons (for example when he is able to singlehandedly defeat an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle), Shatterpoint (goes without saying) and other pieces of the EU (for example when he defeats Grievous with the force multiple times in about 1 second)).

He has also displayed the ability to defend exceptionally against the force (for example in ROTS against Palpatine, when he is not only able to block Palpatine's lightning, but also redirect it and scar the sith lord for life).

Yoda seriously can't touch him.

Isn't this supposed to be Yoda versus Mace.

There are books and guides stating that Yoda is the best jedi of all time (until Luke's time), this includes Mace Windu. Windu has also himself been bested by Yoda and stated that Yoda is above him. Yoda even dodged, without his lightsaber, the attacks of Depa (who Mace stated was as good as him), Plo and I think it was Ki-Adi, if there is someone who can't touch the other, then it is Mace who can't touch Yoda. Yoda even took down Dooku fast two times, when Dooku had an aweful advantage in the second, this is the guy who has bested Mace before...

I hardly trust guides and sourcebooks over my own interpretation of the original source. When exactly did Yoda outspar Windu? Yoda did not take Dooku down in AOTC.

You opinion isn't valide in a debate, sorry. Those pretty much states whos better. We have not seen Yoda do as much as Windu, but absence of proof is not proof of absence, and Yoda has been declared, even by Windu himself, to be better.

And the Yoda=Sidious< Mace doesn't work, because the fights are not even comparable.....

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
I agree, that Palpatine is no push over. He is powerful. And I mean with the dark side of the force. What you guys state is that him and Yoda are equals which cant be true IF yoda disarmed him in lightsaber combat. With the force he is quite powerful, but can't really muster anything to overcome yoda. He tried pods, lightning, other things...and Yoda countered most of them.

We dont see him pull out his lightsaber throughout the rest of the fight, and since the script is second highest canon. The movies being first, then we can "logically" assume Yoda did successfully disarm him.

You are the one who says that Yoda outclasses Palpatine.

We have proven you wrong. You cling to your opinion of the situation, which is fine. But fact overrides your opinion. And fact shows that Yoda had one hell of a time fighting against Sidious.

We have also proven that Sidious > Yoda in tactical fighting.

We have also proven that Sidious forced Yoda back during the saber duel, and met him blow-for-blow (not just attacking and blocking).

Yoda got zapped by the lightning and responded with a Force push. Stalemate.

Sidious threw pods at Yoda. Yoda dodged them. Yoda threw one back. Sidious dodged it. Stalemate.

Sidious and Yoda had the little "lightning war", which ended up exploding and ripping them both apart. Stalemate.

There were no Stormtroopers to interfere. No outside help. Palpatine just fought smarter than Yoda, and, at times didn't even take him seriously.

Which is why Yoda and Sidious's battle ended in a stalemate.

Originally posted by Escape81
You are the one who says that Yoda outclasses Palpatine.

We have proven you wrong. You cling to your opinion of the situation, which is fine. But fact overrides your opinion. And fact shows that Yoda had one hell of a time fighting against Sidious.

We have also proven that Sidious > Yoda in tactical fighting.

We have also proven that Sidious forced Yoda back during the saber duel, and met him blow-for-blow (not just attacking and blocking).

Yoda got zapped by the lightning and responded with a Force push. Stalemate.

Sidious threw pods at Yoda. Yoda dodged them. Yoda threw one back. Sidious dodged it. Stalemate.

Sidious and Yoda had the little "lightning war", which ended up exploding and ripping them both apart. Stalemate.

There were no Stormtroopers to interfere. No outside help. Palpatine just fought smarter than Yoda, and, at times didn't even take him seriously.

Which is why Yoda and Sidious's battle ended in a stalemate.

Ok, they did stalemate with the lightning and Force push.

Ok. Sidious forced it to be a stalemate. He backed out on the pod throwing after he realized that Yoda is able to counter that. That shows me that Yoda overcame his "tactics."

Ok...you already stated that.

I know there was no outside help, but eventually someone would come. They were creating havoc and wrecking the entire Senate chamber. Who wouldent be able to hear that? He did fight smarter...or maybe he was just runnning away every chance he got. He did take Yoda seriously, you yourself said that he just wanted to survive. If you mean the times where he was laughing menacingly, Sidious thought he was winning the fight, until Yoda proved otherwise.

The fight did end in a stalemate, I agree. Who was fighting better though? Yoda or Sidious? The fight I saw was Sidious forcing a stalemate everytime because he diden't want to risk a loss against Yoda.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Ok, they did stalemate with the lightning and Force push.

Ok. Sidious forced it to be a stalemate. He backed out on the pod throwing after he realized that Yoda is able to counter that. That shows me that Yoda overcame his "tactics."

Ok...you already stated that.

I know there was no outside help, but eventually someone would come. They were creating havoc and wrecking the entire Senate chamber. Who wouldent be able to hear that? He did fight smarter...or maybe he was just runnning away every chance he got. He did take Yoda seriously, you yourself said that he just wanted to survive. If you mean the times where he was laughing menacingly, Sidious thought he was winning the fight, until Yoda proved otherwise.

The fight did end in a stalemate, I agree. Who was fighting better though? Yoda or Sidious? The fight I saw was Sidious forcing a stalemate everytime because he diden't want to risk a loss against Yoda.

I said that was his goal of the fight. But there were times that Sidious got overconfident.

He could've killed Yoda twice during the duel. The difference between him and Yoda is this. Yoda's goal was to kill Palpatine. He would take any chance available to him. Palpatine got overconfident and very nearly paid the price.

Twice? What was the other...I only saw the one where he shot lightning at him. Well if you think about it. If yoda was there to kill Sidious which I agree he was. When he threw a force push at him, couldent Yoda have just jumped in and killed him then also? I think neither did so because it would have spolied the movie, a 2 minute duel and a monologue would suck.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Twice? What was the other...I only saw the one where he shot lightning at him. Well if you think about it. If yoda was there to kill Sidious which I agree he was. When he threw a force push at him, couldent Yoda have just jumped in and killed him then also? I think neither did so because it would have spolied the movie, a 2 minute duel and a monologue would suck.

When Sidious threw the final pod at Yoda, and Yoda caught it. Instead of doing anything, Palpatine just laughed.

Secondly, Yoda could have - perhaps. But, when Palpatine electrocuted him, Yoda was completely defenseless, as he was temporarily unconscious. As we saw, Palpatine recovered very quickly from the Force push.

Ah, yes. Of course.

Sidious did not recover as quick. He was still on the floor while yoda was giving his little speech. Then he managed to stand up. I dont think we should use those unusual instances in an argument because thats just poor movie making. We see the same in Mace vs Palps. A lot of it I might add.

Originally posted by Escape81
You are the one who says that Yoda outclasses Palpatine.

I still think the funny fact that Sidious needed terrain advantage to stalemate Yoda is proof enough that Yoda would defeat (or "outclass"😉 him on equal ground.

We have also proven that Sidious > Yoda in tactical fighting.

Unless you can exactly tell me how Sidious did archieve the superior position in the Senate Chamber there is no "proof" for "tactical superiority". Not to mention the fact that Yoda managed to fight Sidious out of any position of advantage he did claim during the fight.

We have also proven that Sidious forced Yoda back during the saber duel, and met him blow-for-blow (not just attacking and blocking).

And we have the script and the mere fact that we didn't see Sidious having a lightsaber anywere hinting that Yoda disarmed Sidious in their lightsaber duel. Yoda > Sidious.

Sidious threw pods at Yoda. Yoda dodged them. Yoda threw one back. Sidious dodged it. Stalemate.

Let's ignore that Sidious wasn't able to catch the pod thrown up at him while Yoda was able to catch the pod Sidious threw down on him. Sidious lost his superior position due to this little action. Advantage Yoda.

Sidious and Yoda had the little "lightning war", which ended up exploding and ripping them both apart. Stalemate.

Excuse me but I guess Janus has explained this situation multiple times. Yoda starts from the worse position and then has this nice comeback forcing Sidious to lean backwards before the energy between them exploded. Or as the script tells us "It looks as if the Sith Lord is doomed". Again advantage Yoda.

There were no Stormtroopers to interfere. No outside help. Palpatine just fought smarter than Yoda, and, at times didn't even take him seriously.

Sidious did fight smarter, was dumb enough to underestimate Yoda still after Yoda threw his ass across his office (hilarious assumption) and despite of that Yoda and him still stalemated ? Want to draw the obvious conclusion that Yoda is indeed superior yourself or do I have to do this ?

Not that I even see a relevance for this "Sidious vs Yoda" side action in a topic concerning "Yoda vs Mace" since Yoda would simply outclass Mace in any instance as Mace himself admitted several times in Shatterpoint (raw power, force knowledge, lightsaber abilities).

-EDIT

Ignore Post

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Ah, yes. Of course.

Sidious did not recover as quick. He was still on the floor while yoda was giving his little speech. Then he managed to stand up. I dont think we should use those unusual instances in an argument because thats just poor movie making. We see the same in Mace vs Palps. A lot of it I might add.

No. Sidious flipped over the chair, and the moment that the camera showed him again, he was already getting to his feet.

Point? He recovered quicker than Yoda did.

I still think the funny fact that Sidious needed terrain advantage to stalemate Yoda is proof enough that Yoda would defeat (or "outclass"😉 him on equal ground.

Outclass? No, outclass would imply a state of absolutely dominance. Which Yoda, unfortunately, doesn't have.

Unless you can exactly tell me how Sidious did archieve the superior position in the Senate Chamber there is no "proof" for "tactical superiority".

The simple fact that he didn't get these so-called "advantages" laid at his feet, but took them.

Not to mention the fact that Yoda managed to fight Sidious out of any position of advantage he did claim during the fight.

Wrong. Yoda attempted it on the podium and got forced back, allowing Sidious to reclaim the center position.

Trumped. 🙂

And we have the script and the mere fact that we didn't see Sidious having a lightsaber anywere hinting that Yoda disarmed Sidious in their lightsaber duel. Yoda > Sidious.

I never denied that it was a possibility or even the truth.

But, it could also be that Sidious opted for long-ranged attacks, realizing that neither of them were getting anywhere with a lightsaber.

Let's ignore that Sidious wasn't able to catch the pod thrown up at him while Yoda was able to catch the pod Sidious threw down on him. Sidious lost his superior position due to this little action. Advantage Yoda.

No, Nai. Lol.

Let's not ignore the fact that Sidious threw three pods in direct defiance with gravity (like Yoda did with that one pod) with better ease than Yoda had.

Furthermore, are you going to imply that Sidious wasn't capable of catching the pod, or that he may have been surprised that Yoda was capable of throwing it back?

Look again. Sidious was laughing his ass off, not even paying attention, until it was a few meters from him.

Excuse me but I guess Janus has explained this situation multiple times.

Yes he has. And I also believe that Janus was one of the ones who stated that the coiled energy actually struck Palpatine when Yoda tossed it back.

Yoda starts from the worse position and then has this nice comeback forcing Sidious to lean backwards before the energy between them exploded.

The only time that Yoda's position nearly does him in is when Palpatine blasts the saber out of his hand. Yoda buckles under the pressure but regains his footing - whilst simultaneously catching the lightning.

Or as the script tells us "It looks as if the Sith Lord is doomed". Again advantage Yoda.

Wrong.

That portion of the script is taken from the scene where it states that Palpatine was disarmed. So it occured on the Podium, not during the "energy ball" scene.

Also look below:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

Is it just me, or don't you find it weird that Yoda (despite being depicted as having the upper hand) jumps to a lower Senate pod, completely?

Sidious did fight smarter,

Yup.

was dumb enough to underestimate Yoda still after Yoda threw his ass across his office (hilarious assumption)

Rofl. Watch the scene again. When Yoda firsts walks in, he gets his ass electrocuted and knocked unconscious! All because of underestimation.

They both nearly paid the price for it.

and despite of that Yoda and him still stalemated ?

Yup. Both made mistakes. Both were arrogant. Both nearly paid the price. And they both stalemated.

Want to draw the obvious conclusion that Yoda is indeed superior yourself or do I have to do this ?

The Databank, New Essential Chronology, Episode III visual guide, and Lucas himself (I believe stated in an interview - I'll try to find it) said that they stalemated. In fact, the Chronology, Databank, and visual guide all stated that "Yoda was unable to overcome Sidious".

Not that I even see a relevance for this "Sidious vs Yoda" side action in a topic concerning "Yoda vs Mace" since Yoda would simply outclass Mace in any instance as Mace himself admitted several times in Shatterpoint (raw power, force knowledge, lightsaber abilities).

I ended up having the argument with GM Nebaris (I believe) or Admiral Ackbar. Nebaris thinks that Mace Windu is the ultimate power in the PT, and could defeat Yoda.

Like you, I disagree.

Originally posted by Escape81
No. Sidious flipped over the chair, and the moment that the camera showed him again, he was already getting to his feet.

Point? He recovered quicker than Yoda did.

The point is they both had an opprotunity to kill each other. Both were in a vulnerable position. They diden't.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Mace Windu invented and mastered the greatest (imo) and deadliest saber form (this is said in many different sources, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perceptions. Vaapad was a 'completion' of Juyo, which was considered as great as Makashi (the saber form bred for dueling) in terms of dueling and overall imo was one of the greatest forms. Vaapad completed it with the addition of a few manoeuvres and the nature of Vaapad was to rely on your inner darkness and enjoy the duel with passion (Mace Windu was very dark inside)).

Only a few ever mastered it without falling to the darkside, and the fact that Mace not only mastered it but created it implies an extremely strong willpower and great control over emotions. It is the darkest form and most aggressive, and Mace Windu was The Master of it, yet he has proven that he can defend exceptionally as well. This is when he dueled palpatine, and seeing as both of their forms were extremely aggressive and overwhelming, he knew that he had to be careful and insure that their styles wouldn't clash in an unpredictable way, so he instead decided to battle in a defencive stance and was still able to defeat Palpatine (the same guy who was able to kill 3 jedi masters in about 4 seconds). People would argue that Palpatine faked it and went easy on him but the way I saw it, palpatine wasn't powerful enough to be able to plan and predict getting disarmed by Mace. That and GL basically confirmed that Mace won because he was more powerful.

His unique shatterpoint ability enabled him to sense weaknesses in his opponents and solutions to every battle.

His advance battle precognition ability enabled him to always predict his opponent's next move and made him virtually invincible.

He is stated in several sources to be a saber prodigy and one of the greatest the order had ever seen, and when compared to Yoda, he is considered the most powerful while Yoda was considered the wisest (however Mace was also very wise, Yoda was the only jedi that was wiser).

He was also the physically strongest and fastest jedi, and extremely strong in the force (he displays this in the CW cartoons (for example when he is able to singlehandedly defeat an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle), Shatterpoint (goes without saying) and other pieces of the EU (for example when he defeats Grievous with the force multiple times in about 1 second)).

He has also displayed the ability to defend exceptionally against the force (for example in ROTS against Palpatine, when he is not only able to block Palpatine's lightning, but also redirect it and scar the sith lord for life).

Yoda seriously can't touch him.

LOL! Yoda can't touch him? Can Mace dodge 3 jedi attacking him at once without a lightsaber and effortlessly.