Originally posted by balanced_blade
Facts
Mace definetly takes this...
1. Yoda is 900+ years old and has nothing to show for it (for being 900...just pointing that out.)
2. Vaapad uses the users hatred as well as the opponents, making vaapad still effective against yoda.
3. Mace is a WEAPON MASTER, which explains using the lightsaber to hold off sidious' lightning.And if you want to look in KOTOR terms, Mace is a Guardian and Yoda is a Consular... to make it simple.
Yoda is kinda..no.. very overrated. It took him what, 100 years to get on the council(stands for correction) where mace was on in a fraction of the time. Yeah he trained great jedi but come on he really never showed much lost to sidious and had slight trouble with dooku. Wisdom yes, battle prowess no...
wtf are u talking about. Yoda is 900 yrs old. Mace is weapon master, and yes you are right about the end, that was very much my opinion .
Speakig of opinions, he clearly wasnt using vaapad. How the hell do you back that up. I wooped your ass and all u can say is that is an opinion.... lol be serious dude
Excuse me, but Vaapad is an aggresive offensive form. It overwhelms the user's opponents. Mace Windu against Sidious in ROTS was clearly not using Vaapad. He was on the defencive the entire battle, and dueled pretty passively, always waiting for Sidious to strike first and then blocking it. It seems that he must have been using Soresu or something. It has even been confirmed that he switched forms because he feard the unpredictability of the result of the clashing between two offensive and overwhelming forms, Ataru and Vaapad. You did not whoop anybody's ass, you dumb retard.
Edit - this is in reply to Blance Blade's post, the third one down.
Ah yes...my English certainly sucks in some situations.
Considering how it's not your native language (I've heard) and you still manage to spout out phrases that I (someone whose native language is English) I'll understand if you get a few words mixed up. 😛
He didn't ? The first position of advantage he has is the middle of the Chancelors podium and he just had it because Yoda forced him back on the podium when the fight started.
No, he flipped onto the podium after fighting Yoda along side it. Yoda didn't force him onto the podium there.
Was that Sidious "tactical genious" ?
I never said that he was a tactical genius, just that he used his brain more than Yoda did in this fight.
Then, at the very end of their lightsaber fight, we see that Yoda is pushing Sidious out of the middle of the podium. Sidious lost his better position.
I beg your pardon, but I don't see that. The final "section" of their fight is Yoda spinning around along the circumference of the podium, hacking away at Sidious, who is meeting him blow for blow (he's also twisting himself to face Yoda). They engage in a saber lock. Yoda breaks out of it, and they swing about two or three more times, and get into another saber lock which ends in Palpatine roaring.
Then he has the position above when he tries to hit Yoda with the pods. Again Yoda manages to get back on equal ground with him by throwing one of the pods back. And we don't know how and why Sidious was able to get up there.
That's my entire point, Nai.
According to the script, Yoda not only disarmed Sidious - but began to arc his own Force lightning back on him. Then Yoda, for some reason, jumps to a lower pod?
That contradicts everything. If Yoda had the advantage completely, he would have taken it, especially when in that instant, Sidious was completely powerless.
One of the RotS books (not the novelization by Stover, but one of the other ones . . .) details that Yoda disarmed Sidious, who responded by blasting him with Force lightning, who responded by arcing it back. It said that Sidious was hurt - but upped the intensity with his pain - until it simply blew Yoda off the podium.
Then it goes on to say that Yoda landed in a Senate pod, which Sidious used the Force to break free and drop to the floor.
Obviously, of course, it contradicts the movie - but it is a possible theory on the discrepency with the script.
And the last superior position is again the middle of a pod when Yoda's standing outside of this. And Yoda again basically trumps him.
Again, I don't see how.
The fight both shows intense strain on them both. Yoda, in fact, looks to be quite in pain. Palpatine cackles and - if I may offer my own explanation - it seems to essentially piss Yoda off - so he puts on his game face and Sidious looks horrified.
And, like I said. Yoda's "trump move" isn't really one at all. All he does is tip Palpatine's coiled energy right in between them, and it explodes, blowing them both backward.
Huh ?
In the fight on the podium, Sidious was positioned in the center of it (the Chancellor's block). Yoda eventually forces him down to the block that is positioned to Sidious's right, and takes the Chancellor's block for himself.
However, as the camera pulls back, it shows Sidious force Yoda back off the Chancellor's block (the center), which Palpatine retakes.
The point being that Yoda simply didn't force Palpatine out of every situation and - in this case - was forced back himself.
How the hell would he manage to deceide to not use his saber any longer, deactivate it and escape from the Chancelors pod while Yoda keeps hacking at him ?
Perhaps he simply flipped off the pod and took off from there? It doesn't have to be a step in which Palpatine thumbs off the lightsaber and skips off at his own pace why Yoda is attacking him.
Not to put you on the spot, but does the script make any sense? Yoda disarming Sidious and forcing his own lightning on him - and then, for no reason (especially if he's pwning Sidious) jumps to a lower pod?
The script is either incomplete or inaccurate which is why I believe that that part wasn't shown in the movie.
Excuse me...but if he was surprised that Yoda would be able to throw the pod back (given that Yoda catched it and started to rotate it) would make Sidious look pretty dumb.
Not necessarily. And please don't use the figurative "dumb". He's obviously not incompetent, if he made Yoda his pawn for the better part of 13 years and managed to exterminate the Jedi right from underneath Yoda's nose.
We both know that neither of them are stupid.
All I can say is that Palpatine must have, again, underestimated Yoda.
He looks down at Yoda while laughing his ass off and stops laughing before Yoda throws the pod back up (when Yoda is spinning it).
No.
He does not.
Yoda spins the pod and releases it, before Palpatine stops laughing. I have the fight on Youtube right here, watching it repeatedly as we speak.
The pod is already more than half way there when Sidious puts his hand away and stops laughing. He even ticks his head and goes "ehh?" before frowning and jumping away at the very last moment.
And, like I said, considering how he was able to chuck three pods in direct defiance with gravity with expressive ease (which Yoda had problems with one), I don't see how he didn't have the capability to stop Yoda's pod.
It seems that he underestimated Yoda and the pod being tossed back caught him off guard.
You can see that Sidious is leaning back and I guess that something like "he's doomed" in the script isn't stated there for fun.
That is not the instance where the script says he's doomed, like I said before.
203 INT. CORUSCANT-SENATE CHAMRER-MAIN ARENA-NIGHTYODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.
YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.
YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.
The instance that says "The Dark Lord is doomed" is during the entire messed up scene I just detailed for you. The one that makes absolutely zero sense and, more importantly, the one kept from the movie.
We don't see what happens with Sidious when Yoda jumps. Possibly Sidious jumped down and while Yoda was jumping down too Sidious jumped up again and therefore received the superior position.
Perhaps. But the point is, Yoda had no reason to jump, especially when (at that point) he completely had the upper hand.
Which is why I think, once again, the reason it was kept from the movie was because it made no sense.
Yes. They stalemated (didn't I say that) when Sidious was always fighting out of a position of advantage. Now ask yourself what would happen on equal ground ?
I think that the fight would go on and on and on and on until finally one of them (Yoda or Sidious) strikes the other one down.
You seem (I say seem because I don't want to imply that I possess telepathy) to imply that Yoda would WTFpwn Palpatine in about five seconds.
I disagree.
Hooray. 😉
He won't listen to me. He idolizes you. You try convincing him, lol.
Originally posted by balanced_blade
[B]Facts
Mace definetly takes this...
1. Yoda is 900+ years old and has nothing to show for it (for being 900...just pointing that out.)
You mean aside of the fact that he can keep every PT force user (except Sidious) under his belt rather easily ? And that he can avoid getting hit by three Jedi including Mace's equal in terms of sheer lightsaber ability - without even having a weapon in hand - effortless ?
2. Vaapad uses the users hatred as well as the opponents, making vaapad still effective against yoda.
And again: Read Shadow Hunter. Depa Billaba (only other Vaapad master except Mace) and two other Jedi attack Yoda at once and they just can't touch him.
3. Mace is a WEAPON MASTER, which explains using the lightsaber to hold off sidious' lightning.
Dooku, according to multiple sources, was the most eager student of lightsaber combat of the entire PT order and even he used his bare hands instead of having to use his lightsaber.
And if you want to look in KOTOR terms, Mace is a Guardian and Yoda is a Consular... to make it simple.
If you want to look at it in RPG terms like WotC uses them (which KotoR is based on) Yoda is a max level Jedi Consular (level 20) while Mace is some level 17 Jedi guardian and Yoda still trumps him in any possibly situation.
Yoda is kinda..no.. very overrated. It took him what, 100 years to get on the council(stands for correction) where mace was on in a fraction of the time. Yeah he trained great jedi but come on he really never showed much lost to sidious and had slight trouble with dooku. Wisdom yes, battle prowess no...
ROFL. Did you even see the films ? Especially have a look at ROTS when Obi-Wan and Yoda fight their way into the Jedi temple. You have 6-8 Clone Troopers shooting at Yoda with semi-automatic weapons (2-3 shots per second) and he deflects every single shot. I guess he has to be damn fast to deflect 12-24 shots per second from weapons that fire with velocity above speed of light - when all shots are coming from different ancles...
And he stalemated with Sidious and in one drafts of the AotC script he was totally pwning Dooku first disarming him and then jumping on his shoulders to ram the lightsaber into his head.
Aside of this I love how Shatterpoint is consequently ignored here by you Mace fanboys. There is this particular situation where Mace has to save some kids out of a vehicle while an avalange is coming down. And while Mace himself has considerable problems to do this he states himself that Yoda would have stopped the avalange with one hand and lifted the vehicle out of the zone of danger with the other. Thus given he might be the second most powerful being in the PT Jedi Order (because Anakin's powers weren't fully developed) but he's still far beyond Yoda in that department.
And (as stated above) there was no Jedi able to touch Yoda in a lightsaber fight. So get it into your head: Windu will lose this.
And by the way:
Excuse me, but Vaapad is an aggresive offensive form. It overwhelms the user's opponents.
Read up something about Ataru. It's said that Ataru forces 100 % on offensive movements and the only "defence" is basically to dodge enemy attacks - at least in the way Yoda uses is. So...Yoda is basically a target that can't be hit and doesn't give his oponent much time to attack at all.
Originally posted by Escape81
Nai, does the Clone Wars "feats" count as a valid source for Nebaris?
Well...the Clone War cartoons are judged by LFL to be canon - but some actions are pretty much displayed in a way that contradicts higher levels of canon. Given by what we've seen in the CW cartoons, Mace should have been able to clear the entire Geonosian arena on his own without many problems.
The point is that if you use feats as displayed in the CW cartoons, Mace would still be inferior to Yoda. The fight on Dantooine is quite impressive. But Yoda in the CW cartoons has shown enough force powers to lift basically an entire mountain up (Ilum) and simply crush ships into the ground or into each other using the force. If you'd put Yoda into the scene on Dantooine as he's displayed in the SW cartoons I'm pretty sure he would simply slam the hoover tank into the droid army on the ground without wasting as much time as Windu did in the same situation.
Well...the Clone War cartoons are judged by LFL to be canon - but some actions are pretty much displayed in a way that contradicts higher levels of canon. Given by what we've seen in the CW cartoons, Mace should have been able to clear the entire Geonosian arena on his own without many problems.
See, that's what I mean. The power that the likes of Windu and Yoda display in the Clone War cartoons are inconsistent with the ones shown in the movie.
The point is that if you use feats as displayed in the CW cartoons, Mace would still be inferior to Yoda. The fight on Dantooine is quite impressive. But Yoda in the CW cartoons has shown enough force powers to lift basically an entire mountain up (Ilum) and simply crush ships into the ground or into each other using the force. If you'd put Yoda into the scene on Dantooine as he's displayed in the SW cartoons I'm pretty sure he would simply slam the hoover tank into the droid army on the ground without wasting as much time as Windu did in the same situation.
Ah, okay.
the entire point of my original post, although highly unsuccessful, was to tell that yoda was at least 800 years older than most if not all of the jedi at the time. Although still powerful, for 900 years he has no god like margin over mace. In fact, mace is considerably close to yoda. My first post did seem to lean toward mace but that is not the case, i was addressing something different.
Sidious being at whatever age, almost matches yoda, though the side of the force may be a factor.
Originally posted by balanced_blade
the entire point of my original post, although highly unsuccessful, was to tell that yoda was at least 800 years older than most if not all of the jedi at the time. Although still powerful, for 900 years he has no god like margin over mace. In fact, mace is considerably close to yoda. My first post did seem to lean toward mace but that is not the case, i was addressing something different.Sidious being at whatever age, almost matches yoda, though the side of the force may be a factor.
That's my point. Sidious stalemated Yoda despite having only 60+ years training in comparison to Yoda's 870+
So, no. Yoda doesn't have a godlike margin over Sidious, or Dooku, or Mace. But in the case of the latter two, he 'is' superior.