I am sorry to say, that Shatterpoint, Dark Rendezvous, the databank, and several other sources disprove you. Mace muses and even admits outloud to Supreme Chancellor Palpatine that Yoda is his superior.
Mace is damn good, but not on Yoda's own level. That isn't to say that he wouldn't be a threat to Yoda, but most likely wouldn't have the power to defeat him.
Though, as Nai is now fond of saying, the most powerful doesn't necessarily win.
Wait, because Mace admits a few times that he is enferior to Yoda, Yoda is somehow definitely superior. Unlike you and Lightsnake, I happen to judge my own opinion over quotes. And as I've said before, Mace was obviously being humble when he said that, as he had obviously idolised Yoda ever since he was a boy.
Wait, because Mace admits a few times that he is enferior to Yoda, Yoda is somehow definitely superior.
Mace obviously has the fairest assessment of his own abilities than any other person. Combine that with the fact that he has, as you say, "idolized" Yoda since he was a boy and worked with the Jedi Master himself for decades, yes, I assume that a confession would justify itself as fact.
Unlike you and Lightsnake, I happen to judge my own opinion over quotes.
Yes, I can see that. And I've commented on it before.
What you don't seem to understand is that your opinion is just as valuable as mine, or as Lightsnake's, or as Admiral Ackbar's, or as any other person on these forums. In a world of opinions, you have a stalemate.
Because of that, we don't argue based on opinions. Opinions are all well and good, but you must have proof to reinforce it. Otherwise, you essentially have a gun without any ammunition, if you'll pardon the metaphor.
You are in the same situation that you're in on the "Top Ten (excluding Ancient Sith)" thread. You take the Clone Wars version of Mace and Yoda, compare them, and make a verdict based on your own assumptions.
Your assumptions are biased, and flawed (like anyone else's could be). Therefore, you must operate on chosen fact. Which are, for example, quotes made by characters and the authors of these pieces.
No where is it stated that Mace has a superiority over Palpatine or Yoda.
And as I've said before, Mace was obviously being humble when he said that, as he had obviously idolised Yoda ever since he was a boy.
Read above.
Don't tell me what is obvious. You are not George Lucas, nor are you the author of the books/comics/databank profiles. Your opinion is worthless without something to back it up, just like mine would be. Your judgments and assessments of the situation are completely without justification.
As I said above: Mace was not in a situation, in Dark Rendezvous, where modesty was required or encouraged. Yoda was assumed dead, and Palpatine was looking for another person to rely on as far as Jedi strategy and such. He had Mace in mind, but Mace stated very firmly that he was inferior to Yoda.
Do not pass off your judgments and assessments as fact. Especially not in an argument against myself, who strongly prohibits it. You can say "he's probably superior to Yoda", but the databank and several sources disprove you.
Unless you can find me a quote or an instance that perfectly says in black-and-white that "Mace is superior to Yoda", then you have nothing.
Hold up. Since when do opposing opinions always end in stalemate? Oh wait, I forgot. You don't even know what a stalemate is. You already showed us that earlier in this thread. I can base my opinion off of evidence, facts and logical deduction and if I present a strong enough argument and make it persuasive enough to convince others to what I believe, then i have won. No stalemate, nothing!
And there are many sources claiming that Mace is superior, but until I find them let's drop the quotes and what not and continue this debate in the proper fashion.
Hold up. Since when do opposing opinions always end in stalemate?
When both opinions lack supporting evidence and reinforcement, it is an automatic stalemate, for the simple reason that your opinion isn't more valuable and more important than my own. You'll do well to remember it.
Oh wait, I forgot. You don't even know what a stalemate is.
I'll ignore (if you pardon my usage of your favorite phrase) obvious insult to my intelligence and respond by saying that I know fairly well what a stalemate is.
You already showed us that earlier in this thread.
Indeed I have.
I can base my opinion off of evidence, facts
Which you have yet to do.
and logical deduction
Thus far, it has been illogical deduction. Furthermore, "logical deduction" is all well and good - and it even may very well be true - but it still has no bearing in the argument without the presence of evidence.
and if I present a strong enough argument and make it persuasive enough to convince others to what I believe,
And as I recall, the ones that I have been arguing against actually agree with me on the main issue. Admiral Ackbar and the person whom you consider to be the ultimate debator on these forums, Nai, has also agreed with me that Mace is inferior to Yoda.
It seems you haven't been doing a very good job of being persuasive.
then i have won. No stalemate, nothing!
You haven't won. And, you're correct, in this instance, there is no stalemate. I have the support of fact and evidence, whereas you do not.
And there are many sources claiming that Mace is superior, but until I find them let's drop the quotes and what not and continue this debate in the proper fashion.
Are you implying there's a proper fashion to debating without the presence of evidence?
As for these sources, I suggest that you begin your search for them. Because, unlike myself and the others, you're the one who needs it if you don't want your opinion to sink under the weight of its own farfetchment.
Firstly, you can't just split up my sentences and reply to them individually. That's just not how you debate. The point that I was trying to make is that you were acting as if 100% concrete fact is always needed if you are to win in a debate. That is not so. As I have already said, opinions do count in a debate. As long as you base the opinions off of evidence and logical deduction, and sway your opponent into thinking as you do, you are debating fine.
Secondly, it seems that the general belief around this forum is that Yoda is stronger then Mace. So while I have been persuasive, at the end of the day it's hard to make people change their minds. It's in human nature to stick to your beliefs.
And so what if even though I believe Nai is the best debater, we share opposing views? I don't judge a debater on what opinion he/she holds, I judge a debater on how well he/she is able to argue their opinion. Then you also have to take into consideration that he's been debating you, and probably ignored my post. Same with Ackbar.
And let's get one thing straight. Not being able to make you change your mind and convince you otherwise of your opinions does not say anything about how well I debate. The fact is that no matter what I post, you're not going to reply because you completely rely on factual quotes in debates, so until I supply the quotes that will convince you otherwise, there is no point in continuing this debate.
Thirdly, judging by this
["Are you implying there's a proper fashion to debating without the presence of evidence?"],
it seems that you seem to think that the only concrete evidence that you can bring to a debate is a factual quote. Nevermind common sense and posting feats. Honestly...
Firstly, you can't just split up my sentences and reply to them individually.
I appreciate that you have taken the time to lecture me on how to debate. I break apart your sentences because I wish to make very clear points from most of them. I don't take them out of context, but I wish to make sure that you read what I'm saying.
The point that I was trying to make is that you were acting as if 100% concrete fact is always needed if you are to win in a debate.
It is required to ultimately end the debate. If it's anything less than 100% concrete, then it isn't really fact, now is it?
That is not so. As I have already said, opinions do count in a debate.
As long as you base the opinions off of evidence and logical deduction, and sway your opponent into thinking as you do, you are debating fine.
You've based your opinion on facts that, apparently, are not worth your time enough to present the source or the facts "themselves". So, until then, your opinion is worthless.
Secondly, it seems that the general belief around this forum is that Yoda is stronger then Mace.
That is because everything we know thus far indicates that Yoda is more powerful than Mace.
So while I have been persuasive, at the end of the day it's hard to make people change their minds.
This makes absolutely no sense.
Firstly, you have not been persuasive.
Secondly, if you were persuasive, then they would have changed their minds. Because that is what you do when you persuade someone. They make their own opinion the same as yours.
And so what if even though I believe Nai is the best debater, we share opposing views? I don't judge a debater on what opinion he/she holds, I judge a debater on how well he/she is able to argue their opinion. Then you also have to take into consideration that he's been debating you, and probably ignored my post. Same with Ackbar.
He clearly stated that "Mace is inferior to Yoda". People have argued this before. While Nai and I don't get along, I hardly doubt that you are going to change his mind with your lack of facts.
And let's get one thing straight. Not being able to make you change your mind and convince you otherwise of your opinions does not say anything about how well I debate.
I never said that you debate poorly. I said that your presentation of fact is poor in this case. And it is.
The fact is that no matter what I post, you're not going to reply because you completely rely on factual quotes in debates, so until I supply the quotes that will convince you otherwise, there is no point in continuing this debate.
I rely on fact, and not your illogical deduction. If Lucas came out and said "Sidious is the weakest Sith Lord in the SWU", I would go along with it without problem. If Lucas came and said "Darth Revan is the most powerful Force-user ever", I would go along with it without problem.
It doesn't take much to change my mind. Just facts.
Thirdly, judging by this
["Are you implying there's a proper fashion to debating without the presence of evidence?"],
it seems that you seem to think that the only concrete evidence that you can bring to a debate is a factual quote.
Quotes, statements, lines, and such taken from the sources are considered fact.
Nevermind common sense and posting feats. Honestly...
And here is the problem that we reach.
I've posted feats for you before, and your responses have basically been:
"Nothing that Yoda has done there is on the level of Mace's"
...without indicating why that is so. You said the same thing in the Scion and Sidious case.
So, please, don't tell me about "posting feats". All you do is simply disagree and state that Yoda or Sidious have done nothing on par with Mace or Scion (respectively), without justification for stating it.
'I appreciate that you have taken the time to lecture me on how to debate. I break apart your sentences because I wish to make very clear points from most of them. I don't take them out of context, but I wish to make sure that you read what I'm saying.'
The thing is, you have taken them out of context.
'It is required to ultimately end the debate. If it's anything less than 100% concrete, then it isn't really fact, now is it?'
I meant to type evidence, not fact.
'You've based your opinion on facts that, apparently, are not worth your time enough to present the source or the facts "themselves". So, until then, your opinion is worthless.'
Did you read my post? I based the majority of my opinions on feats, not 'facts that, apparently, are not worth your time enough to present the source or the facts "themselves"'.
'Secondly, if you were persuasive, then they would have changed their minds. Because that is what you do when you persuade someone. They make their own opinion the same as yours.'
Dude, you're just being silly. It is possible to be persuasive, but at the same time have people not be persuaded by your arguments. A 10 year old would know that. And I was persuasive.
'And here is the problem that we reach.
I've posted feats for you before, and your responses have basically been:
"Nothing that Yoda has done there is on the level of Mace's"
...without indicating why that is so. You said the same thing in the Scion and Sidious case.
So, please, don't tell me about "posting feats". All you do is simply disagree and state that Yoda or Sidious have done nothing on par with Mace or Scion (respectively), without justification for stating it.'
The reason I might not have fully explained how what Mace has done is grater then what Yoda has done is because you keep on pulling the debate into the opposite direction, whether it's about Mace admitting his inferiority, or Sidious faking his battle with Mace, or official statements dictating Yoda as the strongest ever jedi. However, if you want to discuss on the feats, I'll be more then happy too. Post exactly what Yoda has done which puts him above Mace, and explain why.
I'm not the one who needs to prove anything here. You are. I have presented evidence, and that is all I need to do now. As of now, you still have not defended or supported your opinion.
The argument and debate is done for me until you provide the facts by which you base your claims off of. Until then, I don't see how you can make a case.
Get to work on finding your evidence and perhaps I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Until then, don't presume to have submitted anything that puts you on equal footing with the rest of us who have.
Furthermore, on the issue of the "feats". You have not provided clarification at all for why Mace is superior to Yoda (and on the other thread - why Scion is superior to Sidious). All you say is "[Yoda, Sidious] has done nothing compared to [Mace, Scion]."
That won't do at all. Like the above, get to proving why.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Mace Windu invented and mastered the greatest (imo) and deadliest saber form (this is said in many different sources, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perceptions. Vaapad was a 'completion' of Juyo, which was considered as great as Makashi (the saber form bred for dueling) in terms of dueling and overall imo was one of the greatest forms. Vaapad completed it with the addition of a few manoeuvres and the nature of Vaapad was to rely on your inner darkness and enjoy the duel with passion (Mace Windu was very dark inside)).Only a few ever mastered it without falling to the darkside, and the fact that Mace not only mastered it but created it implies an extremely strong willpower and great control over emotions. It is the darkest form and most aggressive, and Mace Windu was The Master of it, yet he has proven that he can defend exceptionally as well. This is when he dueled palpatine, and seeing as both of their forms were extremely aggressive and overwhelming, he knew that he had to be careful and insure that their styles wouldn't clash in an unpredictable way, so he instead decided to battle in a defencive stance and was still able to defeat Palpatine (the same guy who was able to kill 3 jedi masters in about 4 seconds). People would argue that Palpatine faked it and went easy on him but the way I saw it, palpatine wasn't powerful enough to be able to plan and predict getting disarmed by Mace. That and GL basically confirmed that Mace won because he was more powerful.
His unique shatterpoint ability enabled him to sense weaknesses in his opponents and solutions to every battle.
His advance battle precognition ability enabled him to always predict his opponent's next move and made him virtually invincible.
He is stated in several sources to be a saber prodigy and one of the greatest the order had ever seen, and when compared to Yoda, he is considered the most powerful while Yoda was considered the wisest (however Mace was also very wise, Yoda was the only jedi that was wiser).
He was also the physically strongest and fastest jedi, and extremely strong in the force (he displays this in the CW cartoons (for example when he is able to singlehandedly defeat an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle), Shatterpoint (goes without saying) and other pieces of the EU (for example when he defeats Grievous with the force multiple times in about 1 second)).
He has also displayed the ability to defend exceptionally against the force (for example in ROTS against Palpatine, when he is not only able to block Palpatine's lightning, but also redirect it and scar the sith lord for life).
Yoda seriously can't touch him.
If you dispute any of this, tell me and I will furthur explain myself. Ignore the part about whether Sidious faked the duel or not until I can supply my statement.
Mace Windu invented and mastered the greatest (imo) and deadliest saber form (this is said in many different sources, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perceptions. Vaapad was a 'completion' of Juyo, which was considered as great as Makashi (the saber form bred for dueling) in terms of dueling and overall imo was one of the greatest forms. Vaapad completed it with the addition of a few manoeuvres and the nature of Vaapad was to rely on your inner darkness and enjoy the duel with passion (Mace Windu was very dark inside)).
Vaapad was the most "dangerous", for the user. In that it teeters dangerously close to the Dark Side and that it is an excruciatingly violent form, yes, I'd agree that it is the "deadliest".
However, Vaapad has not been shown to be - on average - as efficient as Makashi. But allow me to explain.
Makashi is, as far as lightsaber forms go, the best to use. But there are cases when Makashi is not the overwhelming force it's depicted to be. Consider that Count Dooku was unable to overcome Yoda, who - in Dooku's eyes - mastered a completely reckless and inferior form. But that's also because Yoda is more powerful than Dooku.
So while I believe that Makashi is greater than all other Lightsaber forms, there are instances in which it is not. Thus, I still believe that Mace is Dooku's equal.
Only a few ever mastered it without falling to the darkside, and the fact that Mace not only mastered it but created it implies an extremely strong willpower and great control over emotions. It is the darkest form and most aggressive, and Mace Windu was The Master of it, yet he has proven that he can defend exceptionally as well.
Well, let me start off by saying that, just because he is "second only to Yoda" doesn't mean that Mace is, by any means, lacking in ability.
Mace, yes, managed to remain on the light side despite mastering a lightsaber form that brings its user to the brink of the Dark Side. I still don't dispute that.
His unique shatterpoint ability enabled him to sense weaknesses in his opponents and solutions to every battle.
True. But, it didn't always work. His shatterpoint ability was unable to save him from Palpatine in the end, or from Anakin's betrayal. It's like Yoda's foresight (as well as Palpatine's). In most cases, it's effective. But not always.
His advance battle precognition ability enabled him to always predict his opponent's next move and made him virtually invincible.
You're taking it a bit too far. The "virtually invincible" line has been used dozens of times before. If that were the case, Windu would never have been in any danger in any situation. Which clearly, again, isn't the case.
He is stated in several sources to be a saber prodigy and one of the greatest the order had ever seen, and when compared to Yoda, he is considered the most powerful while Yoda was considered the wisest (however Mace was also very wise, Yoda was the only jedi that was wiser).
Windu and Yoda have both, in different sources, been sited as "wise and powerful". You see, Palpatine remarks to Mace in Dark Rendezvous that he always viewed Mace as "a warrior" and Yoda "a teacher". Mace swiftly denies this and admits his inferiority.
Which, again, I'd agree. Mace does seem to be more of a warrior than anyone else on the Council. We have more instances of him actually going into battle than we do Yoda. In the movies, we only saw Yoda duel Dooku and Sidious - whereas we saw Mace duel Sidious and actually engage in several frontline battles. Yoda did the same, but Mace saw more battletime.
He was also the physically strongest and fastest jedi, and extremely strong in the force (he displays this in the CW cartoons (for example when he is able to singlehandedly defeat an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle), Shatterpoint (goes without saying) and other pieces of the EU (for example when he defeats Grievous with the force multiple times in about 1 second)).
Windu is not the fastest. That title goes to Yoda, who - in Ataru - is the fastest, most agile, and most likely the most overwhelming. This has been stated specifically in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.
Furthermore, I have cited examples of Yoda's abilities in the Clone Wars series (which is not considered canon when you compare their abilities in the series to their abilities in the movies), but you "dismissed" them.
Yoda seriously can't touch him.
This statement is delusional.
Yoda and Sidious are the most powerful Force-users in the PT, but the likes of Mace, Dooku, and Anakin "can touch them".
Originally posted by Escape81
Outclass? No, outclass would imply a state of absolutely dominance. Which Yoda, unfortunately, doesn't have.
Ah yes...my English certainly sucks in some situations.
The simple fact that he didn't get these so-called "advantages" laid at his feet, but took them.
He didn't ? The first position of advantage he has is the middle of the Chancelors podium and he just had it because Yoda forced him back on the podium when the fight started. Was that Sidious "tactical genious" ? Then, at the very end of their lightsaber fight, we see that Yoda is pushing Sidious out of the middle of the podium. Sidious lost his better position.
Then he has the position above when he tries to hit Yoda with the pods. Again Yoda manages to get back on equal ground with him by throwing one of the pods back. And we don't know how and why Sidious was able to get up there.
And the last superior position is again the middle of a pod when Yoda's standing outside of this. And Yoda again basically trumps him.
Wrong. Yoda attempted it on the podium and got forced back, allowing Sidious to reclaim the center position.Trumped. 🙂
Huh ?
I never denied that it was a possibility or even the truth.But, it could also be that Sidious opted for long-ranged attacks, realizing that neither of them were getting anywhere with a lightsaber.
How the hell would he manage to deceide to not use his saber any longer, deactivate it and escape from the Chancelors pod while Yoda keeps hacking at him ?
Let's not ignore the fact that Sidious threw three pods in direct defiance with gravity (like Yoda did with that one pod) with better ease than Yoda had.Furthermore, are you going to imply that Sidious wasn't capable of catching the pod, or that he may have been surprised that Yoda was capable of throwing it back?
Excuse me...but if he was surprised that Yoda would be able to throw the pod back (given that Yoda catched it and started to rotate it) would make Sidious look pretty dumb.
Look again. Sidious was laughing his ass off, not even paying attention, until it was a few meters from him.
He looks down at Yoda while laughing his ass off and stops laughing before Yoda throws the pod back up (when Yoda is spinning it).
The only time that Yoda's position nearly does him in is when Palpatine blasts the saber out of his hand. Yoda buckles under the pressure but regains his footing - whilst simultaneously catching the lightning.
You can see that Sidious is leaning back and I guess that something like "he's doomed" in the script isn't stated there for fun.
Is it just me, or don't you find it weird that Yoda (despite being depicted as having the upper hand) jumps to a lower Senate pod, completely?
We don't see what happens with Sidious when Yoda jumps. Possibly Sidious jumped down and while Yoda was jumping down too Sidious jumped up again and therefore received the superior position.
The Databank, New Essential Chronology, Episode III visual guide, and Lucas himself (I believe stated in an interview - I'll try to find it) said that they stalemated. In fact, the Chronology, Databank, and visual guide all stated that "Yoda was unable to overcome Sidious".
Yes. They stalemated (didn't I say that) when Sidious was always fighting out of a position of advantage. Now ask yourself what would happen on equal ground ?
I ended up having the argument with GM Nebaris (I believe) or Admiral Ackbar. Nebaris thinks that Mace Windu is the ultimate power in the PT, and could defeat Yoda.Like you, I disagree.
Hooray. 😉
@Nebaris:
Mace Windu invented and mastered the greatest (imo) and deadliest saber form (this is said in many different sources, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perceptions. Vaapad was a 'completion' of Juyo, which was considered as great as Makashi (the saber form bred for dueling) in terms of dueling and overall imo was one of the greatest forms. Vaapad completed it with the addition of a few manoeuvres and the nature of Vaapad was to rely on your inner darkness and enjoy the duel with passion (Mace Windu was very dark inside)).Only a few ever mastered it without falling to the darkside, and the fact that Mace not only mastered it but created it implies an extremely strong willpower and great control over emotions. It is the darkest form and most aggressive, and Mace Windu was The Master of it, yet he has proven that he can defend exceptionally as well. This is when he dueled palpatine, and seeing as both of their forms were extremely aggressive and overwhelming, he knew that he had to be careful and insure that their styles wouldn't clash in an unpredictable way, so he instead decided to battle in a defencive stance and was still able to defeat Palpatine (the same guy who was able to kill 3 jedi masters in about 4 seconds). People would argue that Palpatine faked it and went easy on him but the way I saw it, palpatine wasn't powerful enough to be able to plan and predict getting disarmed by Mace. That and GL basically confirmed that Mace won because he was more powerful.
And this entire idea is pretty much totally curpstombed in "Shadow Hunter". Yoda is attacked by three Jedi including Depa Billaba (the only person aside of Mace ever mastering Vaapad and basically his equal in terms of lightsaber fighting) and Yoda dodges all attacks effortless without even having a weapon at hand.
If Depa together with two other Jedi can't touch Yoda I'm pretty sure Mace won't be able to do that on his own. Vaapad mastery or not.
His unique shatterpoint ability enabled him to sense weaknesses in his opponents and solutions to every battle.
And it still didn't enable him to beat Dooku and Yoda in all those years.
His advance battle precognition ability enabled him to always predict his opponent's next move and made him virtually invincible.
And as Yoda is the greatest master of this art the PT has seen that wouldn't help Windu as well.
He is stated in several sources to be a saber prodigy and one of the greatest the order had ever seen, and when compared to Yoda, he is considered the most powerful while Yoda was considered the wisest (however Mace was also very wise, Yoda was the only jedi that was wiser).
You shouldn't use statements of such a dumbasses like Anakin exactly when Mace admitted in Shatterpoint (when he tries to control an avalance) that Yoda's own force mastery and power is trumping his own by far.
He was also the physically strongest and fastest jedi, and extremely strong in the force (he displays this in the CW cartoons (for example when he is able to singlehandedly defeat an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle), Shatterpoint (goes without saying) and other pieces of the EU (for example when he defeats Grievous with the force multiple times in about 1 second)).
If you want to take the CW cartoons as absolute canon Yoda basically lifted an entire mountain (the Jedi temple on Ilum) up using the force and caused an massive avalange to destroy 20+ battle droids ripping the entire top of a mountain apart. Not to side the scenes during the raid on Coruscant where he destroys hundrets or thousands of battle droids on his own.
He has also displayed the ability to defend exceptionally against the force (for example in ROTS against Palpatine, when he is not only able to block Palpatine's lightning, but also redirect it and scar the sith lord for life).
More then Yoda who defeated the lightning with his bare hands were Mace needed his lightsaber to do so ?
Yoda seriously can't touch him.
It's exactly the other way arround. Hell...in Shatterpoint Mace even goes so far and says he would even dare to contradict Yoda. Not to mention that he admits his own inferiority to Yoda multiple times.
Here I will respond first then. This is why Mace was able to defeat sidious with his "Vaapad."
"The power of Vaapad is simple: it is a channel for one's inner darkness; and it is a reflecting device. With strict control, a person's own emotions and inner darkness can be changed into a weapon of the light. Vaapad is able to take the hatred, anger and rage of the opponent and reflect it back at him. In his fight with Palpatine, Mace Windu used Palpatine's own speed and hatred against him, reflecting it back against the Sith Lord and using it as his own power."
And he diden't use his shatterpoint to defeat Sidious.
Facts
Mace definetly takes this...
1. Yoda is 900+ years old and has nothing to show for it (for being 900...just pointing that out.)
2. Vaapad uses the users hatred as well as the opponents, making vaapad still effective against yoda.
3. Mace is a WEAPON MASTER, which explains using the lightsaber to hold off sidious' lightning.
And if you want to look in KOTOR terms, Mace is a Guardian and Yoda is a Consular... to make it simple.
Yoda is kinda..no.. very overrated. It took him what, 100 years to get on the council(stands for correction) where mace was on in a fraction of the time. Yeah he trained great jedi but come on he really never showed much lost to sidious and had slight trouble with dooku. Wisdom yes, battle prowess no...