Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Mace Windu invented and mastered the greatest (imo) and deadliest saber form (this is said in many different sources, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perceptions. Vaapad was a 'completion' of Juyo, which was considered as great as Makashi (the saber form bred for dueling) in terms of dueling and overall imo was one of the greatest forms. Vaapad completed it with the addition of a few manoeuvres and the nature of Vaapad was to rely on your inner darkness and enjoy the duel with passion (Mace Windu was very dark inside)).Only a few ever mastered it without falling to the darkside, and the fact that Mace not only mastered it but created it implies an extremely strong willpower and great control over emotions. It is the darkest form and most aggressive, and Mace Windu was The Master of it, yet he has proven that he can defend exceptionally as well. This is when he dueled palpatine, and seeing as both of their forms were extremely aggressive and overwhelming, he knew that he had to be careful and insure that their styles wouldn't clash in an unpredictable way, so he instead decided to battle in a defencive stance and was still able to defeat Palpatine (the same guy who was able to kill 3 jedi masters in about 4 seconds). People would argue that Palpatine faked it and went easy on him but the way I saw it, palpatine wasn't powerful enough to be able to plan and predict getting disarmed by Mace. That and GL basically confirmed that Mace won because he was more powerful.
His unique shatterpoint ability enabled him to sense weaknesses in his opponents and solutions to every battle.
His advance battle precognition ability enabled him to always predict his opponent's next move and made him virtually invincible.
He is stated in several sources to be a saber prodigy and one of the greatest the order had ever seen, and when compared to Yoda, he is considered the most powerful while Yoda was considered the wisest (however Mace was also very wise, Yoda was the only jedi that was wiser).
He was also the physically strongest and fastest jedi, and extremely strong in the force (he displays this in the CW cartoons (for example when he is able to singlehandedly defeat an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle), Shatterpoint (goes without saying) and other pieces of the EU (for example when he defeats Grievous with the force multiple times in about 1 second)).
He has also displayed the ability to defend exceptionally against the force (for example in ROTS against Palpatine, when he is not only able to block Palpatine's lightning, but also redirect it and scar the sith lord for life).
Yoda seriously can't touch him.
Originally posted by Escape81
a) Palpatine's "running" tactics can be justified by his intent. He wanted to either a) escape or b) prolong the fight to ensure that his men arrive so that he is guarenteed a victory.b) Palpatine and Yoda both fight with lightsabers, and that is ultimately left a stalemate (however, the RotS script says that Yoda managed to outspar Sidious in the end). Even when they fight on even ground, Yoda is still unable to overcome Sidious.
Sidious flips onto the Chancellor's podium as it rises out of his office. He lands right on the Chancellor's block (the mini-platform in the center where he stands in all of the Senatorial addresses). Yoda follows suit and lands on the railing in front of him.
Yoda's style of lightsaber combat requires acrobatic maneuvers and intense speed to compensate for his stature and so forth. Therefore, it only makes sense that he is in the only real position that he can fully utilize his lightsaber form. He is still unable to overcome Sidious.
They are, by the way, meeting each other blow for blow. So it is not Yoda swinging and Palpatine blocking.
c) When the camera pans back, we see Yoda leap forward and force Sidious onto a lower block, where Yoda uses overhanded swings to try to forcibly beat Palpatine's lightsaber away. [B]But Palpatine forces Yoda back on the outside, and retakes the center position.
Yoda continues to try to break Palpatine's "defense", by flipping around the circumference of the podium. Finally, they get into a saber lock, which Yoda manages to break. They fight for a second more, and then end up in a second saber lock, which ends up with Palpatine "roaring".
d) When we return, Palpatine is without his lightsaber. The RotS script says that he was disarmed (but it should be noted that the script's account of what happened differs from the movie).
The script says that Yoda disarmed Palpatine, and then, for some reason just jumps to a Senate pod. Odd enough for a being whose single goal is to kill his enemy. However, if Palpatine were disarmed, it speaks well for him to be able to evade a fully-armed Yoda and be able to put some considerable distance between them.
e) Yoda jumps to the first repulsor-pod. Palpatine cackles and rips three of them from their moorings, and throws them directly up behind himself - thus in direct defiance of gravity. He then uses the Force to take hold of one, and chucks it at Yoda.
Each one he chucks, Yoda dodges. But the final one, Yoda falls. He puts away his saber as Palpatine chucks the last pod. Yoda catches it, spins it, and sends it back while Palpatine cackles (odd behavior on Palpatine's part as well . . .). As the pod gets forward, Sidious stares at it, cocks his head, and says "eh?". Then, he snarls and jumps away at the last moment.
f) Palpatine hands feet-first in a repulsorpod and looks around. Yoda jumps up and lands on the rail and ignites his saber. Palpatine reaches out and blasts it from Yoda's hand.
Yoda nearly teeters off the side, but regains his footing and catches the lightning. Palpatine uses his other hand to blast some more lightning, but Yoda catches it in his free hand as well. Palpatine, who is the one generating the energy, moves closer to Yoda - who must remain stationary.
Yoda grimaces and leans back. Palpatine cackles. Yoda glares at him. Palpatine gasps.
Take a note:
The "energy ball" formed from Palpatine's coiled lightnings is closer to Yoda than it is Palpatine. I will try to provide you with an accurate shot of this. The lightning is pouring from his fingertips and just stops short of Yoda's.
Yoda does not push the energy ball at Palpatine!!! contrary to popular belief. The energy ball never touches Palpatine.
What Yoda did was put the energy ball right in between them both. It goes off and flings them both back.
Ending in a stalemate. [/B]
a.) And what does this show about Sidious?
b.) Yes, and it's even obvious in the fight on the screen that he disarmed him.
Did you not just mention that Yoda outsparred him?
c.) Thanks pal, but I watched the movie, I dont need it summarized.
That was one instance where Yoda was almost able to take the advantage, but for most of the fight he had to jump around Palpatine. This again is because Sidious takes up more space. In a much more open area where they can both freely move there would be no advantages or disadvantages.
Umm...swinging and blocking is meeting blow for blow..Yoda was trying to batter his defenses.
Of course he jumped to another pod, What other option would you have if you were "disarmed." Evade well? all he did was jump to another pod..
Yes...gravity was assisting Sidious and Yoda was able to overcome that.
It's not really odd behavior because we have seen him do that when he thinks he is getting the better of Yoda, he did the same with force lightning at the beggining of the fight until Yoda launched him across the room.
f.) Yes, he blasted his saber out instead of pulling out his saber, this supports the fact that Sidious might have actually been "disarmed."
Really? I dident notice that. It's strange how yoda knows exactly how to counter force lightning with his bare hands. Especially that he had no prior experience testing it.
Originally posted by Escape81
You're an idiot.You tell me when the Clones interferred in the fight or when Yoda was in danger of them.
If Yoda outclassed him, the fight would've been over in a few seconds. So quit trying to argue otherwise.
No your the idiot, you dont realize that He was trying to flee every chance he got. Yoda is better than him in a saber duel becuase he disarmed him. He overcame everything Sidious threw at him. If Sidious wasn't such a wussy we would see the fight the way it's meant to be.
Eventually someone would come.
It doesn't matter if he tried to flee; No one sane would risk a deathmatch with someone clearly his equal. The confrontation had a 50/50 chance of him ending up dead. Sidious didn't have to deal with Yoda in a straight fight; hundreds of troopers could have handled the green dude while Sidious sipped cocktail.
You can call it cowardice, or you can call it being smart. It still has little to do with combat ability especially when, a few scenes later, Palpatine proved equal in power (and superior in tactics).
They are not noted as equals, sources only say they fought as if they were equals. Two different meanings. Well, why was Yoda "sane" enough to fight Sidious if he was "clearly" his equal?
You believe Sidious is greater in power, when in fact Yoda overcame everything Sidious threw at him. Palp's facical expressions "clearly" show this. If he was so superior in tactics he would have won the fight, but he barely managed to do so. Trying to stay alive is not tactics at its finest.
Well, why was Yoda "sane" enough to fight Sidious if he was "clearly" his equal?
Simple; he had no other choice. He knew he had one gamble to destroy the Sith and took it. The Republic destroyed, the Jedi vanquished... he took his one opportunity to save the Galaxy.
Sidious, on the other hand, had a shiny new Empire and teh chusen 1 as his apprentice. He'd rather live another day than risk a confrontation with Yoda.
You believe Sidious is greater in power
I never said that. Read.
Palp's facical expressions "clearly" show this
Although Palpatine is shown screaming that the end, and although it proved Yoda to be a bit better, Yoda wasn't good enough for a convincing win. Yoda's "superior power" made the end result of the force battle a stalemate and pushed both opponents back. Uber.
Maybe he was stronger than Palpatine; if that's the case, it's only by a teeny weeny bit.
And Sidious did win the fight. Yoda was blasted 200 feet down to the bottom of the Senate chambers and was forced into two decades of exile in a galaxy gripped by a brutal dictatorship. Sidious owned said Galaxy.
No offensive Force Powers, huh? Hmm... both Yoda and Mace seemed superior to Sidious as far as saber skills were concerned, though Palpatine may have only losted to Mace because he had exerted alot of Dark Side energy in order to kill the first 3 Jedi with Mace quickly. I give it to Yoda, though barely, it'd be a hell of a fight.
Thanks, Raz.
Admiral Ackbar, your logic is clearly shown to be faulty when you are forced to question why Yoda engaged Sidious in combat. And, as Raz has elaborated, Yoda felt that he had no other choice.
The only organized group of Jedi left were him and Obi-Wan. For all they knew, they were the only ones left. They also knew that Sidious's Empire wasn't well established yet, and if they managed to kill him and Vader - the Empire would collapse.
Which is why he had no fear. However, you have to also look from Sidious's perspective. Sidious, master manipulator extraordinaire, ruthless Sith Lord, and - more importantly - a man who covets power is thrust in a position where he does not control the outcome. Couple this with the even bigger fact that Yoda is his a supremely deadly opponent and that Sidious's goals have finally been realized, why would he have any reason to risk his own demise?
Furthermore, Sidious had two moments where he could have either killed Yoda or added further damage.
a) When he initially blasted Yoda with Force lightning, and knocked Yoda unconscious - he could have continued to assault him. But, what did he do? He got arrogant and did the typical villain-esque move. He monologued.
b) When he chucked that pod at Yoda, and Yoda caught it, Sidious put his hand to his face and laughed. There again, he could've ripped out another pod and threw it at him. Which is why Sidious didn't catch the pod and toss it back. He was amazed that Yoda actually threw it back at him. When it finally registered, he opted to leap away.
As to your argument:
a.) And what does this show about Sidious?
Be sure to read the above comments.
b.) Yes, and it's even obvious in the fight on the screen that he disarmed him.
If it were obvious, then it would have shown Sidious's lightsaber spinning out of his hand. But it didn't. So much for that, eh?
Did you not just mention that Yoda outsparred him?
No. I mentioned that the RotS script said that. Which may be true. But if you read the script's version of the duel and then compare it to the actual movie, you'd see that a lot of it is inconsistant with one another. The script is a valid source, but only if it doesn't completely conflict with the movies itself.
c.) Thanks pal, but I watched the movie, I dont need it summarized.
That was one instance where Yoda was almost able to take the advantage, but for most of the fight he had to jump around Palpatine. This again is because Sidious takes up more space. In a much more open area where they can both freely move there would be no advantages or disadvantages.
Apparently you do need it summarized if you think that Yoda outclasses Palpatine.
It doesn't matter. It proves, what? Palpatine's simply a smarter fighter. Yoda attempted to take the aforementioned "advantages", and was forced back. Why? Because he's not leagues above Palpatine.
Getting warmer, yet?
Umm...swinging and blocking is meeting blow for blow..Yoda was trying to batter his defenses.
No. They both swung at each other. If I swing and you block, that's not meeting blow-for-blow. That means I blow, you block. You don't move like I do. Yoda and Sidious attacked each other with their sabers. They both moved simultaneously, and both clashed.
Point moot.
Of course he jumped to another pod, What other option would you have if you were "disarmed." Evade well? all he did was jump to another pod..
No, I think you misunderstand. The script says that Yoda disarmed Palpatine, and then, for some unknown reason, Yoda leaps away, allowing Sidious to throw repulsorpods at him.
But, if you refer to my comment about Sidious managing to evade a fully armed Yoda, then let me explain. According to you, Yoda outclasses Sidious. So, then why is it that a fully unarmed Sidious is able to "escape" Yoda, cover so much ground, and get to the pods before Yoda can catch up with him?
Might want to think on that. Unless, of course, you're thinking or implying that Yoda was going easy on Palpatine.
Yes...gravity was assisting Sidious and Yoda was able to overcome that.
No. Palpatine lifts three pods up over his own head in direct defiance with gravity. He did, essentially, the same thing that Yoda did - but with three pods and less effort. See, he throws the pods up behind his head to gain momentum, and then chucks 'em back down at Yoda.
It's not really odd behavior because we have seen him do that when he thinks he is getting the better of Yoda, he did the same with force lightning at the beggining of the fight until Yoda launched him across the room.
You mis-understand, once again. I meant that the "odd behavior" was when Palpatine threw the pod, and Yoda caught it. Instead of tossing another one while Palpatine was pre-occupied, he just laughed and did nothing.
f.) Yes, he blasted his saber out instead of pulling out his saber, this supports the fact that Sidious might have actually been "disarmed."
Note the distance between them, and the fact that - like I said - they are virtual equals. The Force, more often than not, helps give an edge to the battle. A la, Count Dooku vs. Anakin & Obi-Wan in RotS. Dooku used the Force to put Obi-Wan out of the fight.
Furthermore, if Yoda is leagues above Sidious, then how did he get his own lightsaber blasted from his hand, eh?
Really? I dident notice that. It's strange how yoda knows exactly how to counter force lightning with his bare hands. Especially that he had no prior experience testing it.
You're not comprehending.
Everyone says that Yoda caught the lightning and threw it back into Palpatine, thus showing Yoda's superiority. I am stating that it did not happen.
Palpatine was the one generating the energy. Thus, though Yoda was blocking it, Palpatine was the only one who could actually move. Yoda was forced to remain stationary in order to keep the energy at bay. As Palpatine moved closer, the more lightning coiled.
See, when Palpatine chucked the lightning, the little "energy ball" was created just a hair away from Yoda's own palms. The "energy ball" of lightning was closer to Yoda than it was to Palpatine.
When the "glaring and gasping" match was over, Yoda leaned forward and shoved the lightning ball.
But it did not hit Palpatine!
Yoda simply pushed it in the middle - in between both of them. And then it exploded. It never touched Palpatine at all. Which is why the shockwaves from the energy ball never touch them either. Yoda and Palpatine are also flung back simultaneously.
The battle ended in a stalemate.
They are not noted as equals, sources only say they fought as if they were equals.
Oh, really?
I recall everywhere saying that it either "ended in a draw" between the "two most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark Sides". Hell, if you'd like to get technical, the Official Databank says that "in the end, the Emperor proved too much to defeat". And the New Essential Chronology stated that "Yoda lost".
I agree that it ended in a draw. But all the sources indicate they tied or Sidious won.
Two different meanings. Well, why was Yoda "sane" enough to fight Sidious if he was "clearly" his equal?
Raz has explained this.
You believe Sidious is greater in power,
Neither I nor Raz believe that. I believe Yoda and Sidious to be 100% equals.
When in fact Yoda overcame everything Sidious threw at him.
So, when Yoda got nailed to the wall, he overcame what Sidious threw at him?
Palp's facical expressions "clearly" show this.
Pardon, I recall Yoda groaning in pain trying to repel Palpatine's lightning.
If he was so superior in tactics he would have won the fight, but he barely managed to do so.
Once again, your logic = crap.
Think about that statement for a moment. "If he were so superior in tactics, he would've won the fight, but barely managed to do so."
This is crap for several reasons:
a) This is our argument with you. Watch us restate it.
"If Yoda were so superior in power, he would've won the fight, but he stalemated him."
b) You claim that Sidious had the advantages during the duel. So how would he be inferior in tactics, lol, especially when Sidious had to take them?
c) ..."he would've won the fight, but barely managed to do so". Erm . . . lol. Rethink that. Barely still counts.
Trying to stay alive is not tactics at its finest.
There you go. You get to work on those two posts, Ackbar. You're one of the very few people on these forums that make me not live up to my own standard of civilty.
I suppose if you could be somewhat "open-minded", perhaps . . .
I'm not insulting your intelligence, by the way. But I think you're reading my statements too quickly, because a lot of your responses don't make sense. Don't feel bad. Nai throws out Latin phrases that I have no Earthly idea as to the meaning . . .
Just take your time, and sorry about the "idiot" remark, earlier. 😉
No, Yoda did have a choice. He could have backed out and gone into exile. I'm still going to stick to my opinion. In any other location better suitable for dueling I believe Yoda would successfuly beat Sidious. He was considered a superior duelist than Mace Windu and Windu bested Sidious in lightsaber combat. His force powers are not leagues above Sidious, but he has countered everything sidious threw at him. That battle might have ended in a stalemate, but because aside from the dueling the fight was a hide and go seek match up, or a hit and run game.
Originally posted by Escape81
There you go. You get to work on those two posts, Ackbar. You're one of the very few people on these forums that make me not live up to my own standard of civilty.I suppose if you could be somewhat "open-minded", perhaps . . .
I'm not insulting your intelligence, by the way. But I think you're reading my statements too quickly, because a lot of your responses don't make sense. Don't feel bad. Nai throws out Latin phrases that I have no Earthly idea as to the meaning . . .
Just take your time, and sorry about the "idiot" remark, earlier. 😉
I'm not going to be able to respond to those posts today, I will get back to them tommorow though. As for insulting my intelligence, I dont mind. I'm still young and I have lots to learn, but you could settle down a bit and not act like an *******. glare
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
I'm not going to be able to respond to those posts today, I will get back to them tommorow though. As for insulting my intelligence, I dont mind. I'm still young and I have lots to learn, but you could settle down a bit and not act like an *******. glare
I'll try not to. But take your time. And, be open to suggestions. You've defied fact a time or two in your arguments.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
lol. Did yoda not throw everything back at his face? When someone strikes, another must repel or block. How many saber locks where there? Wouldent you consider that a swing and block?
a) Jeez, I saw Yoda get nailed by Force lightning and thrown into a wall, and then I saw Yoda's saber go bye-bye. Suppose those don't count, though, eh?
b) WTF? Go watch again. Sidious and Yoda swing simultaneously.
a.) I saw Palpatine get lauched across the room by a casual force push, and I saw Yoda throw a pod back at him, repel his lightning. Basically Yoda threw a lot more back at him.
b) I saw it. Like I said, if either one striked the other must repel or block. When they were swinging simultaneously they were doing a lot of repeling, but blocks came in when they were in saber locks. That's all I said dont complicate things.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
a.) I saw Palpatine get lauched across the room by a casual force push, and I saw Yoda throw a pod back at him, repel his lightning. Basically Yoda threw a lot more back at him.b) I saw it. Like I said, if either one striked the other must repel or block. When they were swinging simultaneously they were doing a lot of repeling, but blocks came in when they were in saber locks. That's all I said dont complicate things.
Rofl. I like how you play like DS does. I make a point that you can't counter, so instead of answering the questions, you try to make one of your own.
Remember. You're the one who says that one is superior over the other. I argue that they're equal.