Final Fantasy XIII

No it doesn't work that way, Peach. You do not get random exceptions for no reason. There is a reason there somewhere.

And yes, GW is linear, and hardly a triumph, plot wise. It's hardly my favourite RP game of all time. RP wise, BG is everything GW is and better. GW is just modern and net enabled, and not too bad.

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I didn't ask if it did not bother you- that's not the same thing. I also think that removing that sort of thing certainly detracts from the world building experience. It reduces immersion. Like I say, it seems like a giant dungeon crawl- you just walk along an endless corridor, with only cosmetics of that corridor being different.

It's certainly one of the reasons why critical scores have been lower than normal for FF games.

I simply don't like WRPG as well, I just can get into them, it bores me how huge they try to be, that I simply quit.
The only open world games I've been able to enjoy had been the GTA series, and that's an action sandbox

I like Linearity, I feel like I'm hearing/watching a story that's been told to me so I can enjoy it all the way through. While towns help make the world feel expansive, in the end all it does is make you go round in circles before you either quit or stay to finish it so you can go to next big place, same with NPC chatter.

while minigames offer distraction, the way most are poorly implemented (it's an RPG game afterall) make them feel like a chore if you want to see them all the way through.

The only thing I'm not liking so much about XIII (as little as I played) is having no control over my Party. Everything else is just fine by me ... so far 😬

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Meanwhile, in regards to XIII- do you guys really feel that its utter linearity and general lack of towns actually improves the experience? You think exploration and discovery have no place in an RP game?

The game sounds like one giant dungeon crawl to me.

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2010/02/04/final-fantasy-xiii-linear/

...

Coming from someone who’s played a majority of the Final Fantasies dating back to the early 90s, I found that XIII really isn’t any different from the PlayStation 2 iterations. Ever since the franchise shifted towards fully-rendered 3D worlds, every area has been much more confined, but it never hampered the epic tale-like experience. In comparison to the older Final Fantasies with vast open areas, yes there is significantly less space you can venture off to, but it’s not exactly like you walked over to the edges of a huge map when there was nothing there to begin with. It’s just the impression of a vast world that’s lost to a certain degree, but I find it’s related to what I mentioned before — the stories are just that much shorter now since they focus on the delivery rather than the length.

Be that as it may, even the earlier Final Fantasies were linear when you think about it. You get to one part of the game and there’s only one place you can go to advance the story. Since going 3D, they just removed the needless wandering that may happen when a player gets lost and is unsure of where to go next. While some may argue that that’s part of the RPG exploration experience, I question if they’re just saying that because that’s what they were introduced to first and have it ingrained into their minds as some unwritten rule. I’m in the same boat, but not a purist in that regard. Because let’s be honest, how is wasting time and not knowing where to go next fun? When I was younger, I didn’t mind because I had all the time in the world on my hands to waste away on every game. They weren’t exactly cheap either, and as a poor kid, each game would have to last as long as possible even if it meant monotonous, repetitive gameplay to extend its longevity.

...

To give you an idea, I was around the 48 hour mark when I arrived at Gran Pulse. When I finally decided to move on with only half of the 64 Cie’th missions done, I was already at the 76 hour mark. That’s 28 hours of me exploring, backtracking, and doing optional stuff in one zone. Can you imagine how long this game would be if all 13 chapters were like that? A 300 hour Final Fantasy? I don’t think that’s happening this decade with the already long development time frames these games require. From a gameplay standpoint, thank god they added teleportation stones in Gran Pulse because even a Chocobo doesn’t cut it for getting around. Objectively-speaking though, the Gran Pulse isn’t available until chapter 11 (of 13), so it does make three-quarters of the game feel like dungeons you can never revisit. But along the same lines as above, I can’t really see anyone venturing back to the “lowbie areas” in any RPG except for nostalgia sake.

That said, another valid point is that there are no shops, since all the shopping and weapon/accessory crafting happen at save points (which are extremely abundant in this game). There are however two very large cities you come across over the course of the game, the capital of commerce Palumpolum and the maritime resort Nautilus, except you’re not there to shop but progress the story. I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve grown so accustomed to stopping off at towns and resting up at inns in RPGs, so their absence here is quite a change. When you think about towns though, they’re just a time sink to make you explore for a bit and talk to NPCs for additional story, the latter of which you may skip a lot of. Taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture, I simply see that as the old tried-and-true way of storytelling in RPGs when the gaming medium was much more restrictive.

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In the game’s defense, the story actually branches off as you progress to mix things up, with you playing as a different set of characters for each chapter, alternating between the two groups until they finally meet up again. During this time, your inventory is shared, but any weapons/accessories equipped by the other group are unavailable unless you unequipped them. You could do that before the end of each chapter, but it really isn’t necessary when you come across new items in the next chapter. In any case, I found that being able to play different branches of the story a refreshing way to convey it from two different perspectives, which isn’t something any Final Fantasy has done until now. Ironically enough, the story actually breaks away from the linearity by having you play two paths concurrently, yet the game is so heavily criticized about maps only flowing in one direction. I guess some people like walking around in big circles (in which they should listen to the characters as the prominent theme is to press on towards a brighter future and never look back).

This paragraph says a lot:

I’m sure anyone who’s bothered to look up some initial reactions to this game will know that (vocal) Japanese gamers have criticized it for being too linear and not playing like an RPG. Somehow, promoting that thought quickly became the “cool thing” to do by people who haven’t even played the game themselves.

First of all- SDJ, as I have mentioned before, you have to stop being so digital with open world vs. linear. It's not like that, You can have a large, explorable world but still a driven plot to latch onto. I happily agree that fully open world games are no good. In fact, that's a basic RP maxim, that open worlding is never as good as people theorise it will be. But total linearity brings its own issues. The best games find the balance.

Secondly- that article has missed the point. Even the illusion of a larger world you are a apart of adds significantly to the experience. You can strip something too bare. Meanwhile, no. Exploration DOES have value- great value. It draws you into a world. Again, you just need the right amount. Once you have stripped it to the point where 90% of the game is just "go that way and kill anything in the way", then you have messed up. His point about cities is... madness. Being able to explore a plot INTERACTIVELY it part of the darn point of computer gaming. If I just want it shown to me by movies or sound, I'll watch a film.

I also don't know what he means- FFIX did a very similar thing with the branching storyline.

Originally posted by S_D_J
This paragraph says a lot:

It's not an intelligent statement- it's a feeble attempt to demonise a valid criticism. I am not saying it because it is cool; I am saying it because total linearity in an RP game is poor. I have been asking people to say if this is true about the linearity and so on. No-one is denying it.

I submit that, having played the game, I feel the illusion of XIII larger world, and the explorable areas themselves do little if anything to lessen it.

If exploring a plot interactively is the point of computer gaming, and XIII has missed that point, then the entire FF series has missed that point, and indeed the majority of the JRPG genre. Affecting which one of a variety of flavors the game ends with is a fetish of WRPGs, as seen by, well, every game BioWare does, for example. But right from the start of FF, the story either told you where to go next to fulfill your scripted goal, or left you to funnel yourself into the next trigger that would tell you where to go.

On the point of stripping bare- what is the point of actually moving around the areas in an FF game? Why actually control your characters to move from one area to another? The only purpose of these endless corridors is o get you to ether the next combat or the next cutscene. So why bother? Why force the player to actually control his own character, when the computer could do it for him? In fact, why not cut those bits out entirely, so it goes combat/cutscene/combat/cutscene?

The answer, of course, is that the experience would be hugely reduced without the transitions you control, even if they do not have a direct gaming purpose.

It is exactly the same thing with towns and an exploration factor. Regardless of whether they were literally needed, the games were the richer for having them.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
I submit that, having played the game, I feel the illusion of XIII larger world, and the explorable areas themselves do little if anything to lessen it.

If exploring a plot interactively is the point of computer gaming, and XIII has missed that point, then the entire FF series has missed that point, and indeed the majority of the JRPG genre. Affecting which one of a variety of flavors the game ends with is a fetish of WRPGs, as seen by, well, every game BioWare does, for example. But right from the start of FF, the story either told you where to go next to fulfill your scripted goal, or left you to funnel yourself into the next trigger that would tell you where to go.

No, that's not true at all- the FF games through to IX at least made a pretence of you exploring and finding the plot.

This is a recent thing. X was very linear, but it still tried to build an interactive world around you.

Meanwhile, I am hearing from a lot of people that they are not drawn into the world at all. I'll bet you any amount I'll find the same thing.

I mean, what actually IS being enjoyed here? Is it just the levelling up for bigger sticks to beat monsters with? I'd rather the game was purist for that- like Diablo. Is it the storyline? Because... good lord, that;'s not encouraging. Is it the presentation? That's fair enough, but let's recognise that for what it is- not an element of gameplay.

I speak as a fan of the old games, seeing as I've played the original six and have greatly disliked the majority of the series following.

FFI is seriously the most obvious example. You start in a small area with only one clear objective: the town. You can wander around that town all you like, buying what items you can afford, but nothing will happen until you go into the castle and trigger the events that tell you to save the Princess from the evil Garland. You can do whatever you like before then, but again, nothing will happen until you go through the Temple of Fiends and get the princess back. The entire game is a series of "Do this. Good, now you can go here and do this." The size of the gameworld does not change the fact that playing the story requires a very restricted, linear path.

But you can still discover that as you go along, which- especially at the time (when I was playing Bard'a Tale- evidence that this JRPG/WRPG split is a modern thing, as the genres were identical back then)- is what people adored about it.

Same deal with the original Legend of Zelda. Today, it feels vague and unhelpful and ridiculously harsh. But back then, discovering about that giant (for the time) world itself was part of the charm.

(Lords of Midnight was better though,. Hence my screen name)

Now, it couldn't stay like that, obviously. Things change. FF certainly changed between, say I and VI. But if you are denying that exploration was a positive part of the game experience, then I don't really think I can give that much credence.

Denying that it was positive? No. Due to the harsh difficulty curve, exploration for experience and additional items was usually a requirement to continue.

But I find it odd that, were the exact same thing to be done with a new IP today, it would most likely be criticized for needlessly padding gameplay time by forcing you to run and grind for hours before standing a chance in a new area. And yet, this game is being criticized for toning that down simply because it's what was done in the past?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
First of all- SDJ, as I have mentioned before, you have to stop being so digital with open world vs. linear. It's not like that, You can have a large, explorable world but still a driven plot to latch onto. I happily agree that fully open world games are no good. In fact, that's a basic RP maxim, that open worlding is never as good as people theorise it will be. But total linearity brings its own issues. The best games find the balance.

Secondly- that article has missed the point. Even the illusion of a larger world you are a apart of adds significantly to the experience. You can strip something too bare. Meanwhile, no. Exploration DOES have value- great value. It draws you into a world. Again, you just need the right amount. Once you have stripped it to the point where 90% of the game is just "go that way and kill anything in the way", then you have messed up. His point about cities is... madness. Being able to explore a plot INTERACTIVELY it part of the darn point of computer gaming. If I just want it shown to me by movies or sound, I'll watch a film.

I also don't know what he means- FFIX did a very similar thing with the branching storyline.

A good game will find the balance

XIII is not the best.game.ever. So far I'm just liking it... a lot

I don't have as much time as I used to play long games anymore, last one that took me around 200+ hours was FFXII, spread across several months... before that was San Andreas which I played for a complete year. I'm sure I'll be finishing XIII around August, at the earliest.
I appreciate the linearity because at least I would be able to pick up and continue the story with no other distraction until chapter 11.

I barely ever play a game more than once, so I always try to do as much as possible on that one playthrough. This way the sidequest will wait for me at the end and I won't be tempted to do as much as possible before continuing the story (that's why it took me more than 200 hours to finish XII)

BTW: I love MGS, the epitome of a "first movie, then game" experience 😄

so It's just a matter of taste

Well, I believe you're Ivalice.

pretence of you exploring

A very weak, flimsy pretense of exploring.

Sure, you had this large, wide-open world. But the very moment you stepped out of where the game wanted you to go, you were faced with monsters that were massively more powerful than you were. That doesn't sound like allowing you to explore at all. You always could go back and explore more freely...but not until later on in the game. Which is really no different than here. You stick to that path until a certain point and then you can go wander freely and do what you like.

Heck, they even went back to the "you can wander all you like but beware stepping foot out of where we say you need to go" thing for FFXII. I certainly don't recall any praise for that, despite it being far more open than, well, any previous FF game.

Oh, and you want to know the main reason why I got into GW? The artwork and design on it. I didn't get into it until I picked up Factions, remember.

So the exploration of the game is weak or something? I think I going to wait for Versus.

I play games for Art, exploration, action, and story.

FFXIII is okay.

If people spent less time complaining and moaning about the linearity they would enjoy the game 2 times more.

The story is good, the character development is the best I've seen in a FF. the soundtrack, the gameplay....ugh it has so many great things going for it that the lack of exploration(though you will have lots of exploring to do once you reach chapter 11) doesn't mean much IMHO.

Every FF has had its strict linearity until reaching open world thing going on...this one just made it too fkn long. But then again its just a way to strenghten the story's impact. After all you're on the run throughout the entire experience. And I'd dare argue being forced the linear path has some thing to do with the whole "challenge fate" theme

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I didn't ask if it did not bother you- that's not the same thing. I also think that removing that sort of thing certainly detracts from the world building experience. It reduces immersion. Like I say, it seems like a giant dungeon crawl- you just walk along an endless corridor, with only cosmetics of that corridor being different.

It's certainly one of the reasons why critical scores have been lower than normal for FF games.

I agree.

I believe I'm about halfway through the game now and I've encountered one "town", which wasn't much more than a dungeon with some people running around and some buildings.

The thing about towns in FF games in the past is that there were more or less 3 situations. Dungeon, storytelling, and towns. Each of those 3 were necessary as breaks from the other situations. Combat got tiring, so towns offered a break - a place to walk around and talk to people and learn things about the world that you're spending time in. In XIII, though, there are simply 2 situations. Dungeons (which is basically just running forward in this game) and cinematics.

I think it's a shame that they didn't include towns to explore. Even if it was just optional. Obviously the world they created has a rich mythology and history. There is a lot to learn about it. Unfortunately the only way to hear about this mythology and history outside of what is told to you during the main storyline is to read the datalog. If they included a town or two, populated by people you could actually talk to, it would go a long way in fleshing out that mythology and history in a much more organic and meaningful way. Like I said before, towns are necessary for making the world feel alive and lived in and more realized. As it is, the world in FFXIII never feels like a place. It feels like a series of levels, disjointed from one another, populated by random monsters. I never feel like I'm exploring the world of cocoon. I feel like I'm just moving through the forest level, then the ice level, then the industrial level, and so on.

Originally posted by Peach
Heck, they even went back to the "you can wander all you like but beware stepping foot out of where we say you need to go" thing for FFXII. I certainly don't recall any praise for that, despite it being far more open than, well, any previous FF game.

Actually, praise for the open world, and the scope and realization of the world in general, was one of the more constant praises for XII. The plot was crap, the characters were unlikeable and bland, but the world was the most well realized world yet in an FF game. The towns were huge and filled with people to talk to, which again, made the world feel like an actual living place, instead of just levels, the world was actually explorable. Go read the reviews of XII, most of them will praise these aspects, because they were what made the game playable.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Denying that it was positive? No. Due to the harsh difficulty curve, exploration for experience and additional items was usually a requirement to continue.

But I find it odd that, were the exact same thing to be done with a new IP today, it would most likely be criticized for needlessly padding gameplay time by forcing you to run and grind for hours before standing a chance in a new area. And yet, this game is being criticized for toning that down simply because it's what was done in the past?

No, that;'s shifting the goalposts. Obviously if a gamer today did what FFI did, it would be no good. But as I mentioned before, the answer to that is not to CUT the exploration, it is to improve it.

And yes, XII actually did well, critically speaking. It allegedly failed in atmosphere. Oddly, I have been told by some that I'd like that one. Really must give it a try.

I like your approach there, Zack. If only I'd ignore the bad bits, it'd be good, eh?

LoL.

I gave the game a chance and now love it. That was all. I'm not talking about you. Its just that I have been on gamefaqs far too much and kids there drive me mad. They just go "OMG so linear I am 2 hours into the game and it sucks I cannot stand it!" Multiple threads about complains like that kindda made me extra sensitive. It gets even worse when it is kids who have never played FF. They go on to say "OMG there is no difference in battles...just the stats of the monsters change" I mean...what did he expect? I don't mind the negative comments, but all the hating wore me down.

Your statements seem valid enough, as well as Backfire's. I do miss towns, but not as much as I thought I would. What I do miss is a solid mini-game ala triple triad from FFVIII(most addictive mini-game ever for me)

I never tried FFXII because I didnt have a PS2 then. Need to play it to see just how open the world was. I think Square went for the linearity to adress the lack of story/atmosphere many fans complained about. They obviously failed the mark, but they can hit the perfect balance ...if they wanted too. Unfortunately it seems that is not the case and they will, in fact, keep the linearity