Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You don't know why Cloud's eyes are glowing? You don't even think about it for a second? You don't wonder why? I'm not talking about Jenova Cells here, I'm talking about Mako poisoning. I'm not saying he had Mako from before either, that's impossible to know, It is obvious he had a energy boost in THAT MOMENT to be able to perform such thing, that wasn't his own strength, that's what I meant. Your argument doesn't need to be combated, it is already a faulty one.
You cannot pass this off as a one time thing, GrieverSquall. Weather Cloud had enhancements or not, that was all him.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Why Squall fell from that place? Is easy to figure out actually. Having a hard piece of Ice passing through your bones and destroying one of your lungs, you lose stability, Cloud would have died here for example. I repeat, you may be right if he passed out when he was already on the ground, but you can be wrong too, at that point is irrelevant anyway to think about it.
Cloud would have died here? Funny, he didn't die with a sword through his chest. You think Squall fell backwards because he slipped? That's your argument. The scene is set up to show Squall passing one. He takes the hit, stands there for a second, then slowly falls over. Not because he lost his footing, because he was loosing consciousness.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But you need SKILL to win a fight, that's a logical fact. How come you can't accept it? It doesn't matter if you can take a punch better than me, after all without skills you won't defeat me. (This applies to your stab argument actually, not at how they are now)
I can accept it, but you seem to continuously want to imply that because Cloud used to not have skill, thus he doesn't now, or has less now, which isn't true. Look at the character NOW and forget about the past.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Nice, and what about my other facts supporting Squall? You forgot about them all?
No, I was responding to this one.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Stop arguing a logical reasoning here.
Stop arguing logic? That's what you use to debate. What am I suppose to use?
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
the fact is that we have just one and you'll have to deal with it. You don't gain the title of Legendary just for doing nothing, if you ask me.
Well, we have just one that we know about. And anyway, I was never implying there there were more. I was simply proving that legendary doesn't make you the best. Nor do any of the other reasons you brought up. A whole pile of faulty reasoning does not end with a valid conclusion.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Let me answer your questions individually from both perspectives.Icicle attack on Squall:
Why do you think he was FALLING BACKWARDS? He got impaled by a big piece of ice.
But that didn't knock him off the float. He stood there after the attack and it was only then that he fell over.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Hey, if things go sour I'll back flip off a float? He didn't backflip. He got hit by a really big piece of ice and his body acted autonomously. It's what happens when something that big happens to go through our bodies.
Yeah, you pass out. Cloud didn't though.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Sword attack on Cloud:
I didn't get this part. Of course Cloud didn't fall off a float, he wasn't ON one. That's a necessary condition for falling off one. What were you trying to prove here?
Originally posted by IndridCold
However now that I think about it, had Cloud fallen over the rail behind him, do you think things would have turned out differnt?
Of course. They would have been different if he had spontaneously combusted too, what's your point?
Originally posted by IndridCold
Now that I have explained it to you that way, do you understand the circumstances are differnt?
No. They aren't EXACTLY the same, but they are very similar. They are both examples of what two characters do with a similar wound.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Cloud didn't actively retaliate himself, in fact it took him several moments to retaliate. Squall got hit and fell backwards, because there was no place to land except 50 feet down, he didn't have a chance to retaliate. He was hit and fell a great distance.
No, he was hit and remained standing right where he was. After a second or two he fell backwards. Not from the icicle knocking him back.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Ok, I just looked it up. Nope, still havent changed my mind.
You cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the icicle attack alone made Squall pass out. He could simply have just fallen over,
Does he do that a lot? Just fall over, I mean. Does a fully conscious person just fall backwards for no reason whatsoever? I think Squall would have a tough time of it if he was prone to falling on his face all the time.
Originally posted by IndridCold
No you havent. Even if you did,(which you havent), it's still all circumstantial. This is your thought line. "OH wow Cloud took this attack better than Squall took that attack. Obviously Cloud would win in a fight."
Yeah, that's pretty good reasoning if you ask me. That's like saying person A can take a ton of hits to the face and not pass out, but person B takes one hit and passes out. Logic says that person A would likely win in a fight against person B. This alone doesn't PROVE that Cloud would win. It's just part of it.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Your definition of a game mechanic...these are YOUR words. "But it's still a game mechanic. Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie.
Yeah, and how exactly do Jenova cell enhancements fit into this category?
Originally posted by IndridCold
By that definition, Jenova Cells ARE A GAME MECHANIC.
What is your reasoning here? They talk about Jenova cells all throughout that game. They weren't placed in to make it a game and not a movie. What are you talking about?
Originally posted by IndridCold
Tac, me and you are going to have a fundamental disagreement on how this debate should be handled. We will literally argue forever lol You are trying to redefine real...The true definition of real can probably be decribed as •being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence•.....Cloud and Squall DO NOT exist.
You think I think they do? I know they don't exist, and I'm not trying to argue like they do. When I say "reality" I mean in terms of the FF world.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Not really, that's part of the story-line, actually.
Yes, IndridCold seems to be confusing what game mechanics are. He's trying to throw random stuff into that category.
Originally posted by TacDaveyWow you don't think I didn't catch that? You can't pick and choose the words that you said...This is how you quoted me...
Yeah, and how exactly do Jenova cell enhancements fit into this category?
"Your definition of a game mechanic...these are YOUR words. "But it's still a game mechanic. Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie."
When the fact of the matter is, this is your definition in it's entirety..."But it's still a game mechanic. Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie. It has absolutely no bearing on reality, as I have already shown. The numbers are a lie."
Did you just exclude the fact that you said "It has absolutly no bearing on reality" because obviously Jenova cells don't fit into that category?
Originally posted by TacDaveyReread what you said...."They weren't placed in to make it a game and not a movie." I fail to understand what you are talking about here..Is that a typo or by using double negatives are you implying FF7 is a movie?..Both FF8 and FF7 are video games in their entirety. Last time I checked Final Fantasy 8 didn't open up in theatre's nation wide.
What is your reasoning here? They talk about Jenova cells all throughout that game. They weren't placed in to make it a game and not a movie. What are you talking about?
Originally posted by TacDaveyWow, I think I've made a break through. Are you saying that you now understand the circumstances are differnt...
I didn't get this part. Of course Cloud didn't fall off a float, he wasn't ON one. That's a necessary condition for falling off one. What were you trying to prove here?
Originally posted by TacDaveyMy point is Cloud never fell, not because he stayed on his feet, but because he was held on them by Sephiroth for that brief moment. Cloud could have very well out on his feet, but was given the chance to retaliate unlike Squall was. Cloud could never win on this circumstance alone.
Of course. They would have been different if he had spontaneously combusted too, what's your point?
Originally posted by TacDaveyExcept for the fact that Squall had to endure much more than Cloud....He had to fight Seifer....Then the Sorceress....Then the ice attack.....Then the fall.....You say he passed out, but it all likelyhood he could have fallen over because of shock or blacked out for a second, both of which he could have recuperated from, and just got back into the fight, unfortunatly for him....there was no place to fall except the ground that was 50 feet beneath him. End of story. Completly differnt circumstances.
No. They aren't EXACTLY the same, but they are very similar. They are both examples of what two characters do with a similar wound.
Originally posted by TacDaveyOk then....why are we still stuck argueing about these stupid attacks that both characters took, if it doesn't PROVE that either would win in a fight? We're are both argueing senselessly. The thing is, you say the icicle attack is just "a part" of why Cloud would win, but thats really the only arguement you have been argueing. Concidering you have acknowledged that this point alone doesn't prove either would win, what other points do you have?
Yeah, that's pretty good reasoning if you ask me. That's like saying person A can take a ton of hits to the face and not pass out, but person B takes one hit and passes out. Logic says that person A would likely win in a fight against person B. This alone doesn't PROVE that Cloud would win. It's just part of it.
Originally posted by TacDaveyThe only Final Fantasy world you seem to acknowledge is the FF7 world and waive anything in the FF8 world. Every arguement you have is either a circumstance or has some sort of strong counter in the FF8 world...and you waive them as mechanics.
You think I think they do? I know they don't exist, and I'm not trying to argue like they do. When I say "reality" I mean in terms of the FF world.
GF's=Jenova cells
Lionheart-Shows that Squall has a strong counter to Cloud's best attack. Shows what each character can do in their primes. Clearly a normal human should not exceed that of a superhuman, but here we see it's not the case. You argue your looking into the realities of the "FF world." Lionheart is just as much a part of the FF8 world as Jenova cells are the FF7 world. You can't say Lionheart doesn't exist simply because isn't mentioned in the storyline. That's not your call to make.
Also you never even acknowledged two of my arguements in my previous post. The first arguement being GF's raise the attributes of the SeeD's they are equipped too, giving them superhuman qualities. The second arguement being SeeD's are easily on par with Soldier. Cid felt perfectly comfortable sending 8 SeeD "initiates," they were not full blown SeeD's at this point, against a galbadian army in Dollet. 8 SeeD initiates vs an Army. Thats a task worthy of any "mako infused" entry level Soldier. Some may argue that would make SeeD's rather superior to Soldier.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You cannot pass this off as a one time thing, GrieverSquall. Weather Cloud had enhancements or not, that was all him.
A good energy boost would have helped, not only Cloud to retaliate, but other random soldiers as well in his place. Why Cloud didn't retaliate in Advent Children if he's that strong? Different situations, exactly. Do you think it was his own strength? So Cloud is stronger than Sephiroth? Don't make me laugh.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Cloud would have died here? Funny, he didn't die with a sword through his chest.
His stomach you mean.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You think Squall fell backwards because he slipped? That's your argument. The scene is set up to show Squall passing one. He takes the hit, stands there for a second, then slowly falls over. Not because he lost his footing, because he was loosing consciousness.
Squall endured the speed of that attack (which is tremendous) and didn't even fell. No, I said he was losing stability with a thing passing through his bone and lung, he even had it when he fell, so you can imagine the pain. Do you think a normal person would have survived that attack? A normal person would have been blown away in a blink of an eye.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I can accept it, but you seem to continuously want to imply that because Cloud used to not have skill, thus he doesn't now, or has less now, which isn't true. Look at the character NOW and forget about the past.
Cloud's pretty strong, I never denied that actually, you denied Squall's abilities. Skill and experience are other points for this discussion, I never said Cloud is less stronger now, how I can say that? You use Sephiroth to show Cloud's skills, but Cloud isn't in his league, not even on par with him. Today I watched Advent Children Complete, Cloud was being owned in every way possible in that fight. Undeniable.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Stop arguing logic? That's what you use to debate. What am I suppose to use?
I have a logical reasoning in my side, I know perfectly what I'm talking about, but you are arguing against a logical reasoning here, that's why you need to stop, you won't make youself any favors in the future.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, we have just one that we know about. And anyway, I was never implying there there were more. I was simply proving that legendary doesn't make you the best. Nor do any of the other reasons you brought up. A whole pile of faulty reasoning does not end with a valid conclusion.
Legendary makes you better (in a lot of sense) that the ones that aren't Legendary, if you ask me. Faulty reasoning? You call faulty reasoning all the facts from the game? You must be joking. A good example of faulty logic is your argument about Cloud's stab which has nothing to do with fighting.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Wow you don't think I didn't catch that? You can't pick and choose the words that you said...This is how you quoted me..."Your definition of a game mechanic...these are YOUR words. "But it's still a game mechanic. Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie."
When the fact of the matter is, this is your definition in it's entirety..."But it's still a game mechanic. Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie. It has absolutely no bearing on reality, as I have already shown. The numbers are a lie."
Did you just exclude the fact that you said "It has absolutly no bearing on reality" because obviously Jenova cells don't fit into that category?
You are rambling incoherent nonsense now. Jenova cells ARE a part of reality. They are a part of reality as much as Cloud is a part of reality! What are you talking about?
Originally posted by IndridCold
Reread what you said...."They weren't placed in to make it a game and not a movie." I fail to understand what you are talking about here..Is that a typo or by using double negatives are you implying FF7 is a movie?..Both FF8 and FF7 are video games in their entirety. Last time I checked Final Fantasy 8 didn't open up in theatre's nation wide.
No, there is no typo. Jenova Cells were not placed in the game to make it a game and not a movie. Thus, they are not a GAME mechanic, because they are not part of the GAME aspect of FF7. Why are you struggling with this?
Originally posted by IndridCold
Wow, I think I've made a break through. Are you saying that you now understand the circumstances are differnt...
You've made your break through a little late. I already said they weren't 100%. Cloud doesn't need to be on a float in order for the situations to be comparably similar.
Originally posted by IndridCold
My point is Cloud never fell, not because he stayed on his feet, but because he was held on them by Sephiroth for that brief moment.
Cloud could stand. He pulled himself up the blade and stood there as he threw Sephiroth off the platform. Squall couldn't even stand after his attack.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Except for the fact that Squall had to endure much more than Cloud....He had to fight Seifer....Then the Sorceress....Then the ice attack.....Then the fall.....You say he passed out, but it all likelyhood he could have fallen over because of shock or blacked out for a second,
Now you are simply inserting specific situations that have no basis in fact. You are turning, once again, to the ridiculous.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Ok then....why are we still stuck argueing about these stupid attacks that both characters took, if it doesn't PROVE that either would win in a fight?
Debates usually revolve around more than one argument, at least these kinds of debates.
Originally posted by IndridCold
The only Final Fantasy world you seem to acknowledge is the FF7 world and waive anything in the FF8 world.
Do I? What have I waived from he FF8 world that I haven't waived from the FF7 world? Give me examples.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Every arguement you have is either a circumstance or has some sort of strong counter in the FF8 world...and you waive them as mechanics.
What have I waived as game mechanics that AREN'T game mechanics?
Originally posted by IndridCold
Clearly a normal human should not exceed that of a superhuman, but here we see it's not the case.
We clearly do NOT see this. The absolute ONLY points you have are that Squall's Lionheart is better than Omnislash. Well I have evidence that ISN'T game mechanics.
Originally posted by IndridCold
You argue your looking into the realities of the "FF world." Lionheart is just as much a part of the FF8 world as Jenova cells are the FF7 world.
It most certainly is not. Lionheart is a battle animation. Jenova Cells are a very important part of the FF7 story.
Originally posted by IndridCold
You can't say Lionheart doesn't exist simply because isn't mentioned in the storyline. That's not your call to make.
Lionheart is a battle animation. Battle animations are game mechanics. Do you think Sephiroth really destroys all the planets in our solar system with his super nova attack? Does he really bubble up the sun? No, he doesn't. Why? Because it's a battle animation. It's a game mechanic. It didn't really happen.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Also you never even acknowledged two of my arguements in my previous post. The first arguement being GF's raise the attributes of the SeeD's they are equipped too, giving them superhuman qualities. The second arguement being SeeD's are easily on par with Soldier. Cid felt perfectly comfortable sending 8 SeeD "initiates," they were not full blown SeeD's at this point, against a galbadian army in Dollet. 8 SeeD initiates vs an Army. Thats a task worthy of any "mako infused" entry level Soldier. Some may argue that would make SeeD's rather superior to Soldier.
Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't really matter. Soldiers are pretty weak in FF7 compared to Cloud, at least. Zack took out most of an army of them completely by himself. That's what a Soldier first class can do.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
A good energy boost would have helped, not only Cloud to retaliate, but other random soldiers as well in his place. Why Cloud didn't retaliate in Advent Children if he's that strong? Different situations, exactly. Do you think it was his own strength? So Cloud is stronger than Sephiroth? Don't make me laugh.
I never said Cloud was stronger than Sephiroth, where do you get that? You can try to pass it off as a one time "energy boost" all you want in a feeble attempt to undermine the argument.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
His stomach you mean.
Different things change how it happened. In the anime he gets stabbed twice. It's inconsistent. In the original, it was more in his chest, than stomach, though for the life of me I could not find a picture or video that had that scene. Even the anime version has it more in his chest than stomach.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall endured the speed of that attack (which is tremendous) and didn't even fell. No, I said he was losing stability with a thing passing through his bone and lung, he even had it when he fell, so you can imagine the pain.
I'm sure the pain was great. I'm sure Clouds wound didn't feel too peachy either, but you didn't see him fall off floats and passing out.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Do you think a normal person would have survived that attack?
I think it's possible to survive that attack, yes. Since Squall did it.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud's pretty strong, I never denied that actually, you denied Squall's abilities. Skill and experience are other points for this discussion, I never said Cloud is less stronger now, how I can say that? You use Sephiroth to show Cloud's skills, but Cloud isn't in his league, not even on par with him. Today I watched Advent Children Complete, Cloud was being owned in every way possible in that fight. Undeniable.
Why are you bringing this back up? I already retracted the stance that Cloud was stronger than Sephiroth, what's your point in rehashing that?
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I have a logical reasoning in my side, I know perfectly what I'm talking about, but you are arguing against a logical reasoning here, that's why you need to stop, you won't make youself any favors in the future.
No, you really don't have logical reasoning on your side. I have logically refuted all your arguments. You list a ton of reasons why Squall is a good swordsman, and claim this makes him the greatest in the whole world. When logically, I show that to be invalid, you turn to an "argument of ignorance" by claiming that, since no swordsman greater than Squall is mentioned in FF8, he thus doesn't exist. You then claim that since Ultimicia calls him "legendary" that must mean he is the greatest in the world, which I then showed to be obviously false.
You have ZERO logic backing any of your claims. (cont)...
Ran out of space...
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Faulty reasoning? You call faulty reasoning all the facts from the game? You must be joking.
Let's take a look at your "logic". Here is your points for Squall being the greatest swordsman in the whole world.
1.) He comes from garden, and garden is known for having strong fighters.
This means nothing. Lots of people come from garden, and lots of people don't. It's illogical to say that there are no strong fighters outside of garden, we know this isn't true.
2.) Squall mastered the gunblade.
And if I solve a rubix cude, that doesn't make me smarter than all the scientists of the world, now does it? The fact that he mastered a weapon that is difficult to handle does not, in any way, show that he is the greatest swordsman in the whole world.
3.) Squall leads garden.
Simple, the fact that Squall leads anything says nothing of his strength or skill at all.
4.) Ultimicia calls him "legendary".
This means nothing. If I call my dog "legendary" does that make him the greatest dog in the whole world? No, it's a word. It can be applied to anything. And even if we grant that it was rightfully applied to Squall, it's a word, and a vague one at that. "Legendary" doesn't mean "greatest in the world" at the very best, it means elite.
5.) (and my personal favorite.) Squall is the greatest swordsman because there is never any mention of a swordsman who is better.
This is obviously faulty reasoning. It's called an "argument from ignorance." And is a well know fallacy.
I have refuted all your points that suggest Squall as being the ABSOLUTE best swordsman in the world.
I am not going against logical reasoning, I am right on track.
A good example of faulty logic is your argument about Cloud's stab which has nothing to do with fighting. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by TacDaveyI'm rambling incoherent nonsense, and you're the one argueing "Jenova cells ARE a part of reality." As I have said before, you and I are going to have a fundamental differnce on how these arguements should be aruged. Jenova cells are not a part of reality at all. You try to base it on "FF reality," as you would put it, but that is irrational, because it simply is not real, it is completly fake and made up. The only rational way to argue is accepting everything in the game as some sort of mechanic, as major or minor as they are, and forming some sort of conclusion. Your the the incoherent one, not me....
You are rambling incoherent nonsense now. Jenova cells ARE a part of reality. They are a part of reality as much as Cloud is a part of reality! What are you talking about?
Originally posted by TacDaveyI'm struggling with it because it makes no sense. FF7 is "a game" in it's entirety. Jenova cells are a part of the story. But the story is told in "a game." It's all a game, Jenova cells included. There should be no seperation of the story with the game it is incorporated with. If you seperated the story portion away from the game portion it is incoporated with, you'd have a dull FF7 combat simulator. If you seperated the combat portion away from the story portion of the game, you'd have a crappy book. ALL aspects of the game need to be concidered when argueing Squall vs Cloud...Their attacks, their backstory, how they were trained, what they are good at and what they are not good at. It can all be found in their respective games, story and combat systems alike.
No, there is no typo. Jenova Cells were not placed in the game to make it a game and not a movie. Thus, they are not a GAME mechanic, because they are not part of the GAME aspect of FF7. Why are you struggling with this?
Originally posted by TacDaveySquall wasn't afforded the opportunity to stand back up because he fell 50 feet. Cloud could have stood, but he wasn't, he was being supported by Sephiroth's blade, which for all intents and purposes could have made him look as if he was standing. For that split moment he could have been out on his feet, realized, "oh crap, I need to do something," and then did what he did.
Cloud could stand. He pulled himself up the blade and stood there as he threw Sephiroth off the platform. Squall couldn't even stand after his attack.
Originally posted by TacDaveySo you deny Squall had to fight Seifer....and then the sorceress....then the icicle attack....."immidiatly" before succumbing to the fall? They are specific situations in the story that happened directly before Squall fell off the float. You arent calling me ridiculous at that point, you are calling the story portion of FF8 ridiculous. The only thing ridiculous here is your bashing of the FF8 storyline, when the only thing you have for defense of FF7 is it's storyline. Concidering your so bent on rationality I would assume you would take into account what happened before and after the icicle attack. You blatantly disregaurd Squall's falling off the float as having anything to do with him going unconscious. And here you blantantly disregaurd anything leading up to Squall being hit by the icicle attack, both of which are directly in the storyline of FF8
Now you are simply inserting specific situations that have no basis in fact. You are turning, once again, to the ridiculous.
Originally posted by TacDaveyFrom the above post, we can include the storyline now.
Do I? What have I waived from he FF8 world that I haven't waived from the FF7 world? Give me examples.
From reading most of your posts, you completly disregard GF's as giving superhuman abilities, which completly contradicts your old arguement that Squall isn't superhuman.
On the superhuman topic...You fail to understand that sending 8 SeeD initiates to fight an entire army is worthy of Soldier standards. you argue that most Soldier arent as strong as Cloud. Well by that logic most SeeDs arent as strong as Squall. If SeeDs are doing missions of the same scale as mako infused "superhuman" members of Soldier, then it is logical to assume SeeD's themselves have superhuman ability. Your areguement to that was "maybe, maybe not." Weak...
You waive Lionheart as being a "game" mechanic, when there are several things just as ridiculous in both FF7's and FF8's storylines.
There's more but I really just want to get to this....
Originally posted by TacDaveyThere are just as many things that are ridiculous in Both FF8 and FF7 written storylines that can easily be compared to the ridiculousness of the combat animations. Do you really think Cloud or Squall would have survived either of their attacks? Probably not, they both would have certainly died from those attacks, but they didn't, that's ridiculous. In FF7 there are little stations that suck the lifeforce out of the planet and then the planet gets really really mad, and thats completly ridiculous. In FF8 there's a lady that can bend, twist and contort time which is obviously not possible, hence making it, ridiculous, however your willing to accept all of the storyline of both games, as fact. Meanwhile you completly disregard the ridiculousness of the combat system....everything in both the story and combat system has ridiculous elements, you can't pick and choose which to use and which not to use. Concidering that both elements, story and combat are completly ridiculous in their own right, you can make a basis on who would win, in both a story and combat system aspect.
Lionheart is a battle animation. Battle animations are game mechanics. Do you think Sephiroth really destroys all the planets in our solar system with his super nova attack? Does he really bubble up the sun? No, he doesn't. Why? Because it's a battle animation. It's a game mechanic. It didn't really happen.
Sorry for the double post, due to time restrictions at work I had to expedite this entire portion, I'm going to reword concidering it didnt make much sense.
Originally posted by TacDaveyThere are just as many things that are ridiculous in the written storylines of FF8 and FF7 that can easily be compared to the ridiculousness of any combat animation. Do you really think Cloud or Squall would have survived either of the attacks they had to endure? Probably not, they both would have certainly died from those attacks, the fact that they survived is completly ridiculous, especially in Squall's case. In FF7 there are little stations that suck the lifeforce out of the planet and then the planet gets really really mad........that is also completly ridiculous. In response to a threat to its world, the planet in FF7 also conjures so called Weapons in defense of it's planet. Again.....completly ridiculous. Lets not forget that in final fantasy 7 there is also a part where the world cracks open to reveal a substance called the "lifestream." In FF8 there's a lady that can bend, twist and contort time which is obviously not possible, hence making it, ridiculous.
Lionheart is a battle animation. Battle animations are game mechanics. Do you think Sephiroth really destroys all the planets in our solar system with his super nova attack? Does he really bubble up the sun? No, he doesn't. Why? Because it's a battle animation. It's a game mechanic. It didn't really happen.
My point is this....You are willing to accept any ridiculousness the storyline is going to throw at you, but when ridiculousness hits in the combat enviroment, you give me the arguement that "it's stupid Indrid, do you really think that could happen?" Well no probably not....but I also don't believe any of the ridiculousness the storyline throws at me is possible either...It's all fake....stop argueing that it isn't.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I never said Cloud was stronger than Sephiroth, where do you get that? You can try to pass it off as a one time "energy boost" all you want in a feeble attempt to undermine the argument.
No? So, what about: "that was all him."? That means it was Cloud's own strength, right? So, Cloud is stronger than Sephiroth? No. What other alternatives we have? Exactly, a Mako enhancement, a energy boost + chance to counter = retaliation from a simple Katana attack.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Different things change how it happened. In the anime he gets stabbed twice. It's inconsistent. In the original, it was more in his chest, than stomach, though for the life of me I could not find a picture or video that had that scene. Even the anime version has it more in his chest than stomach.
It doesn't matter. The picture you saw was the Katana passing through his stomach, not chest. A version won't change anything. You can think/dream it passed through his chest all you want, but passed through his stomach. Anime? Sephiroth jumped alone, Cloud didn't even threw him in that one and both stabs were in his stomach area as well. Denying it and being stubborn about it won't make this fact go away, friend.
First stab (stomach):
Second stab (stomach or spleen):
*Awaits for more useless excuses*
Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm sure the pain was great. I'm sure Clouds wound didn't feel too peachy either, but you didn't see him fall off floats and passing out.
Indeed, more than Cloud's who at least had a little chance to counter-attack. Did I said Cloud was in a float? Who passed out? Ah yes, Squall, probably, in the ground after falling with a Ice Javeling passing through his lung. Although I don't have doubts about Cloud being laying down in the ground, passing out automatically after that Katana attack (all versions).
Originally posted by TacDavey
I think it's possible to survive that attack, yes. Since Squall did it.
Because Squall is not a normal human. Or Squall is one of those weak town people? Or Squall is just as normal as me or you? Or Squall is one of those random Galbandian soldiers? The way he received AND endured that attack without even falling was impressive, shows great strength and durability, taking in consideration that his lung was destroyed 1 second before the stab.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Why are you bringing this back up? I already retracted the stance that Cloud was stronger than Sephiroth, what's your point in rehashing that?
Really? You did? Then you have nothing to show Cloud's skills. Unless you bring new arguments to the table, of course. Or you want to bring that argument about Cloud defeating Sephiroth in that spiritual realm?
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, you really don't have logical reasoning on your side. I have logically refuted all your arguments. You list a ton of reasons why Squall is a good swordsman, and claim this makes him the greatest in the whole world. When logically, I show that to be invalid, you turn to an "argument of ignorance" by claiming that, since no swordsman greater than Squall is mentioned in FF8, he thus doesn't exist. You then claim that since Ultimicia calls him "legendary" that must mean he is the greatest in the world, which I then showed to be obviously false.
Oh, yes, I have. You have refuted nothing, you wish.
Let's see.
Originally posted by TacDavey
1.) He comes from garden, and garden is known for having strong fighters.This means nothing. Lots of people come from garden, and lots of people don't. It's illogical to say that there are no strong fighters outside of garden, we know this isn't true.
1.) You choose the wrong person to argue about Final Fantasy VIII. He trained all of his life in Balamb Garden, which is the most important organization of fighters in the planet. And he was admitted at the age of 6-7.
Lots of people come from a Garden you say? And lots of people don't? Like the Galbandian Soldiers, which aren't in SeeD's league. There you have Esthar (Which is a nation same as Galbadia) The White SeeDs (inferior to Balamb SeeDs), Galbadia Garden (Different kind of training, technology and mechanism from where Irvine comes) and Trabia (destroyed). Squall pretty much showed to be above all of them.
Originally posted by TacDavey
2.) Squall mastered the gunblade.And if I solve a rubix cude, that doesn't make me smarter than all the scientists of the world
2.) Squall mastered a difficult weapon known as the Gunblade, Squall is the only one in the whole planet who did it, the only Gunblade specialist in the world. The Gunblade that takes ages of training than a normal blade, surely he got skills.
That didn't make sense. Read above.
Originally posted by TacDavey
3.) Squall leads garden.Simple, the fact that Squall leads anything says nothing of his strength or skill at all.
3.) Squall's the leader of the SeeDs and the best among them, lead his own Garden to victory, earned that merit due of the skills mentioned above.
You are simply wrong, keep it up.
Originally posted by TacDavey
4.) Ultimicia calls him "legendary".This means nothing. If I call my dog "legendary" does that make him the greatest dog in the whole world? No, it's a word. It can be applied to anything. And even if we grant that it was rightfully applied to Squall, it's a word, and a vague one at that. "Legendary" doesn't mean "greatest in the world" at the very best, it means elite.
4.) Ultimecia calls Squall Legendary because he's the one destined to face her and defeat her.
Legendary means Elite? What the hell are you talking about? Legendary means Legendary. I suppose your dog defeated the most powerful being in the universe? I suppose your dog had achievements all around the world? Your dog is a legend? Your dog was sent to the most dangerous missions in the planet and had combat with the most powerful warriors and entities? No, right? Although, you can say your dog is Legendary if you want, but under what base, what reasoning? I hardly see that as relevant compared to a warrior who endured Time Compression/absorption, etc, etc, read above, etc, etc. It's just a word? Lmao, so Ultimecia is in love with Squall? That's why she entitled him as: "Legendary" for no apparent reason whatsoever? So the time has come. You're the Legendary SeeD destined to face me? So her words are meaningless? Stop being ridiculous.
Originally posted by TacDavey
5.) (and my personal favorite.) Squall is the greatest swordsman because there is never any mention of a swordsman who is better.This is obviously faulty reasoning. It's called an "argument from ignorance." And is a well know fallacy.
I have refuted all your points that suggest Squall as being the ABSOLUTE best swordsman in the world.
I am not going against logical reasoning, I am right on track.
5.) Squall is the greatest Legendary swordsman in the whole planet because there is no one mentioned, so, let's see. What merits and achievements could have a swordsman that is outside completely of the story? What evidence do you have that could be better than Squall in all the sense after all the other facts supporting him? You say that because there is no other swordsman mentioned in the story (which is wrong because they wouldn't have introduced Seifer to be Squall's rival and Ultimecia's Knight) doesn't mean there doesn't exist someone better than Squall. I say, because there is no mention of that swordsman, doesn't means that exist someone better than Squall either, no after all the facts supporting my stance, no after all the evidence from the game/story-line itself that goes in Squall's favor and not yours, no after all the achievements, no after all the merits, no after mentioning that Squall IS THE REAL REASON OF SeeD's existence.
No, it isn't a faulty reasoning at all.
No, you haven't and I'm afraid you won't.
Yes, indeed you are against a logical reasoning here which is logic. Guess what, go play the game because you have demonstrated how much you know, you don't know anything about it.
Originally posted by SpadeKing
But you're not a Sorceress set to destroy all of existence, no one would believe your dog to be legendary in any sort of way. They would think you just love your dog a lot.
You are missing the point. Just because some person calls him legendary does not make him the greatest swordsman in the world. Like you said, the fact that I called my dog legendary doesn't show anything. Taking a word that someone said of a person is not valid evidence in proving they are the greatest swordsman in the world.
Originally posted by IndridCold
I'm rambling incoherent nonsense, and you're the one argueing "Jenova cells ARE a part of reality." As I have said before, you and I are going to have a fundamental differnce on how these arguements should be aruged. Jenova cells are not a part of reality at all. You try to base it on "FF reality," as you would put it, but that is irrational, because it simply is not real, it is completly fake and made up. The only rational way to argue is accepting everything in the game as some sort of mechanic, as major or minor as they are, and forming some sort of conclusion. Your the the incoherent one, not me....I'm struggling with it because it makes no sense. FF7 is "a game" in it's entirety. Jenova cells are a part of the story. But the story is told in "a game." It's all a game, Jenova cells included. There should be no seperation of the story with the game it is incorporated with. If you seperated the story portion away from the game portion it is incoporated with, you'd have a dull FF7 combat simulator. If you seperated the combat portion away from the story portion of the game, you'd have a crappy book. ALL aspects of the game need to be concidered when argueing Squall vs Cloud...Their attacks, their backstory, how they were trained, what they are good at and what they are not good at. It can all be found in their respective games, story and combat systems alike.
I really can't believe what I just read. We have to look at the reality of the FF world. It's perfectly possible to look at something from the standpoint of a fantasy world, IndridCold. We know how things work in Superman's world. Cryptonite hurts him etc. That world doesn't exist, but we can easily look at it and make assessments based off of the world. It's very easy to determine what is a game mechanic and what isn't. It's not hard at all.
If we follow your logic, then we should be assuming that Squall waits for turns to attack, and has giant magic numbers popping up over his head. But I ask again, where were the numbers when he took the hit from Edea? Why wasn't he waiting in his fight with Seifer? Because all of that is a game mechanic, and as far as the FF8 world is concerned, it isn't real. It is just plain wrong to say we cannot know what the reality of a fantasy world is. You argument that we should lump everything into a game mechanic is completely irrational, and has been refuted. I will not argue from that stand point. If you wish to continue with the mind set that everything is a game mechanic, then you may debate as such with another, because I will not. It is completely illogical, and has no place in this debate.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Squall wasn't afforded the opportunity to stand back up because he fell 50 feet.
He was standing before he fell. The icicle didn't knock him off the platform. After he took the attack, he stood there for a couple seconds, and then fell backwards on his own.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Cloud could have stood, but he wasn't, he was being supported by Sephiroth's blade, which for all intents and purposes could have made him look as if he was standing.
Then how did he throw Sephiroth off the platform? He would have to have put his feet on the ground in order to lift Sephiroth up, unless you think he has some ability to fly, of course.
Originally posted by IndridCold
So you deny Squall had to fight Seifer....and then the sorceress....then the icicle attack....."immidiatly" before succumbing to the fall? They are specific situations in the story that happened directly before Squall fell off the float. You arent calling me ridiculous at that point, you are calling the story portion of FF8 ridiculous.
No, I was responding to your.... how to put it.... ideas that maybe Squall blacked out for a second, and that's why he fell, or any of those other wild speculations that you drew from absolutely no evidence.
Originally posted by IndridCold
The only thing ridiculous here is your bashing of the FF8 storyline, when the only thing you have for defense of FF7 is it's storyline. Concidering your so bent on rationality I would assume you would take into account what happened before and after the icicle attack. You blatantly disregaurd Squall's falling off the float as having anything to do with him going unconscious.
Yes I do. Squall had lost, or was loosing, consciousness before he hit the ground. You can see it in the scene. The icicle attack DID NOT CAUSE HIM TO FALL OFF THE FLOAT. If you are going to ignore and continue to push that it was the icicle that cause him to fall and it was the fall that knocked him out, I will just have to respectfully end the debate here. There is nothing I can say when you ignore my points as if they weren't there.
Originally posted by IndridCold
From reading most of your posts, you completly disregard GF's as giving superhuman abilities, which completly contradicts your old arguement that Squall isn't superhuman.
The jury is still out on GFs, I'm not completely positive they aren't game mechanics. Their status in FF8's story on how they work with people is a little gray. For instance, we all know that GFs don't determine if Squall can use items or not. They almost appear to come off as equipable items like swords or armor. I didn't want to bring them back in because, quite frankly, I am already pressed to respond to all of what we are talking about now. Keep in mind I am responding to two people at once. My last post was actually too big and had to be split in two.
Originally posted by IndridCold
On the superhuman topic...You fail to understand that sending 8 SeeD initiates to fight an entire army is worthy of Soldier standards. you argue that most Soldier arent as strong as Cloud. Well by that logic most SeeDs arent as strong as Squall.
No, you cannot apply that logic here. Squall didn't fight an army of Seeds all by himself.
Originally posted by IndridCold
If SeeDs are doing missions of the same scale as mako infused "superhuman" members of Soldier, then it is logical to assume SeeD's themselves have superhuman ability. Your areguement to that was "maybe, maybe not." Weak...
No, that says nothing to them being super human. That isn't a super human feat in FF standards, unless you want to conclude that almost every character in FF games are super human.
Originally posted by IndridCold
You waive Lionheart as being a "game" mechanic, when there are several things just as ridiculous in both FF7's and FF8's storylines.
Covered that already.
Originally posted by IndridCold
There are just as many things that are ridiculous in Both FF8 and FF7 written storylines that can easily be compared to the ridiculousness of the combat animations. Do you really think Cloud or Squall would have survived either of their attacks? Probably not, they both would have certainly died from those attacks, but they didn't, that's ridiculous. In FF7 there are little stations that suck the lifeforce out of the planet and then the planet gets really really mad, and thats completly ridiculous. In FF8 there's a lady that can bend, twist and contort time which is obviously not possible, hence making it, ridiculous, however your willing to accept all of the storyline of both games, as fact.
As fact, yes. In terms of the FF world. We all know time can't really be contorted, but in FF8 it can. The story line of the game can most certainly be taken as fact. Battle animations are another matter.
Originally posted by IndridCold
My point is this....You are willing to accept any ridiculousness the storyline is going to throw at you, but when ridiculousness hits in the combat enviroment, you give me the arguement that "it's stupid Indrid, do you really think that could happen?" Well no probably not....but I also don't believe any of the ridiculousness the storyline throws at me is possible either...It's all fake....stop argueing that it isn't.
But there are some things that are true to the FF world, and some that are not. That's what game mechanics are. As I said before, the numbers that pop up in the battle are not true to the FF8 world, we know that.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No? So, what about: "that was all him."? That means it was Cloud's own strength, right? So, Cloud is stronger than Sephiroth?
That doesn't make Cloud stronger than Sephiroth, I don't know why you think it does. Just because you can lift someone up, doesn't mean you are stronger than them.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
It doesn't matter. The picture you saw was the Katana passing through his stomach, not chest. A version won't change anything. You can think/dream it passed through his chest all you want, but passed through his stomach. Anime? Sephiroth jumped alone, Cloud didn't even threw him in that one and both stabs were in his stomach area as well. Denying it and being stubborn about it won't make this fact go away, friend.
As you can see, the account of what happens changes from thing to thing. In the anime, Sephiroth jumps off himself. In the game, Cloud throws him off. In the anime, Cloud gets stabbed twice. The game has him getting stabbed only once. As you can see, the game and anime have him also getting stabbed in two different locations. It changes, but it is generally in the chest region. Not the stomach.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Indeed, more than Cloud's who at least had a little chance to counter-attack. Did I said Cloud was in a float? Who passed out? Ah yes, Squall, probably, in the ground after falling with a Ice Javeling passing through his lung.
I already covered that with IndridCold, read above.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Because Squall is not a normal human. Or Squall is one of those weak town people? Or Squall is just as normal as me or you? Or Squall is one of those random Galbandian soldiers?
You don't have to be placed in one of those categories to be a normal human.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The way he received AND endured that attack without even falling was impressive, shows great strength and durability, taking in consideration that his lung was destroyed 1 second before the stab.
So you admit it wasn't the icicle that sent him off the float? He was standing after the attack, after all.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Really? You did? Then you have nothing to show Cloud's skills. Unless you bring new arguments to the table, of course. Or you want to bring that argument about Cloud defeating Sephiroth in that spiritual realm?
Well, that's still an impressive feat, even if Cloud isn't above Sephiroth in skill. But yes, I don't claim that Cloud is better than Sephiroth anymore. That wasn't the deciding point of my argument though.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
1.) You choose the wrong person to argue about Final Fantasy VIII. He trained all of his life in Balamb Garden, which is the most important organization of fighters in the planet. And he was admitted at the age of 6-7.
That is impressive. So no one who doesn't go to garden at 6 or 7 can ever be a great swordsman? It's impossible? No? Then it doesn't show him to be the greatest. It shows him to be good, yes. The absolute best? No.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Lots of people come from a Garden you say? And lots of people don't? Like the Galbandian Soldiers, which aren't in SeeD's league. There you have Esthar (Which is a nation same as Galbadia) The White SeeDs (inferior to Balamb SeeDs), Galbadia Garden (Different kind of training, technology and mechanism from where Irvine comes) and Trabia (destroyed). Squall pretty much showed to be above all of them.
So it is impossible for someone to be a good swordsman outside of those groups? if someone is a master swordsman, they must ally themselves with one of those? No? Then it does not show him to be the absolute best.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
2.) Squall mastered a difficult weapon known as the Gunblade, Squall is the only one in the whole planet who did it, the only Gunblade specialist in the world. The Gunblade that takes ages of training than a normal blade, surely he got skills.
Oh yes, surely he does. No denying that. But is it impossible for someone who does not use a gunblade to be a better swordsman than someone who does? No? You already admitted as much. Then it does not show him to be the absolute greatest.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
3.) Squall's the leader of the SeeDs and the best among them, lead his own Garden to victory, earned that merit due of the skills mentioned above.
So it is impossible for someone who is not head of garden to be a better swordsman that someone who is? No? Then it does not show him to be the absolute greatest.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
4.) Ultimecia calls Squall Legendary because he's the one destined to face her and defeat her.
So because it was destined to be Squall who defeated Ultimicia, that means he is the greatest swordsman in the whole world? No? It says nothing of his swordsmanship skills, it just means he was destined to do it, and it does not show him to be the greatest.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So the time has come. You're the Legendary SeeD destined to face me? So her words are meaningless? Stop being ridiculous.
One more time. Is the definition of legendary "greatest in the whole world"? No? Then it does not show him to be the greatest.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
5.) Squall is the greatest Legendary swordsman in the whole planet because there is no one mentioned, so, let's see. What merits and achievements could have a swordsman that is outside completely of the story? What evidence do you have that could be better than Squall in all the sense after all the other facts supporting him? You say that because there is no other swordsman mentioned in the story (which is wrong because they wouldn't have introduced Seifer to be Squall's rival and Ultimecia's Knight) doesn't mean there doesn't exist someone better than Squall. I say, because there is no mention of that swordsman, doesn't means that exist someone better than Squall either, no after all the facts supporting my stance, no after all the evidence from the game/story-line itself that goes in Squall's favor and not yours, no after all the achievements, no after all the merits, no after mentioning that Squall IS THE REAL REASON OF SeeD's existence.No, it isn't a faulty reasoning at all.
Yes it is, GreiverSquall. It is a defined fallacy called an "argument for ignorance" and it is faulty reasoning. Just because there is no mention of someone doesn't mean they don't exist.
Not one of your points shows that Squall is the absolute greatest swordsman in the entire world. And guess what. Layering them on top of one another doesn't either. You can have all the faulty reasoning in the world, if none of them show Squall to be the greatest then they don't show Squall to be the greatest. It doesn't matter how many you have. I have responded to each one personally. Not one of them shows with absolute certainty that Squall is the greatest swordsman in the entire FF8 world. Not one.
It doesn't matter how many you have. I could say that my dog is yellow, therefore Squall is the greatest swordman in thw whole world. That obviously doesn't show Squall is the greatest swordsman in the whole world, and it doesn't matter how many of those I bring, at the end of the day, I still haven't shown that Squall is the greatest in the whole world.
You points show that he is a good, even great swordsman, but not that he is the best.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yes, indeed you are against a logical reasoning here which is logic. Guess what, go play the game because you have demonstrated how much you know, you don't know anything about it.
You are letting the fact that you like Squall cloud your logical reasoning and it is stunningly apparent. Even if you don't see it.
Originally posted by TacDavey
That doesn't make Cloud stronger than Sephiroth, I don't know why you think it does. Just because you can lift someone up, doesn't mean you are stronger than them.
So wasn't Cloud stronger than Sephiroth in the scene? If Cloud wasn't stronger than him, then why Sephiroth allowed him to do it? He wanted to be thrown away or something?
Originally posted by TacDavey
As you can see, the account of what happens changes from thing to thing. In the anime, Sephiroth jumps off himself. In the game, Cloud throws him off. In the anime, Cloud gets stabbed twice. The game has him getting stabbed only once. As you can see, the game and anime have him also getting stabbed in two different locations. It changes, but it is generally in the chest region. Not the stomach.
You're right, Tac. Doesn't change anything in the stab, at least though. It is generally in the abdominal/stomach area, you have all the images, concede.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You don't have to be placed in one of those categories to be a normal human.
What do you mean by that? Did I mention any category? That comment has nothing to do with the Ice Strike at all. Only someone strong as Squall can survive that, a normal person can survive the Katana stab though, I even can survive that Katana attack.
Originally posted by TacDavey
So you admit it wasn't the icicle that sent him off the float? He was standing after the attack, after all.
A normal person would have been blown away with the speed of that attack. Squall being able to stood there and not even to fall after that, is impressive. The attack didn't even moved Squall.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, that's still an impressive feat, even if Cloud isn't above Sephiroth in skill. But yes, I don't claim that Cloud is better than Sephiroth anymore. That wasn't the deciding point of my argument though.
Indeed and Cloud isn't even on par with Sephiroth's skills (That's stated). Cloud being able to stand a fight against Sephiroth is something that many characters from Final Fantasy can do, not really an impressive feat.
Originally posted by TacDavey
That is impressive. So no one who doesn't go to garden at 6 or 7 can ever be a great swordsman? It's impossible? No? Then it doesn't show him to be the greatest. It shows him to be good, yes. The absolute best? No.
Did I said something like that? No. Did I said is impossible? No. So don't put words in my mouth. I said there are swordsmen outside Gardens, so what's your point here? You are hardly making any sense. Squall's the best? Yes.
Originally posted by TacDavey
So it is impossible for someone to be a good swordsman outside of those groups? if someone is a master swordsman, they must ally themselves with one of those? No? Then it does not show him to be the absolute best.
Again, when did I said it was: 'impossible' to be a good swordsman outside Garden? WHEN? Never. Squall is a master swordsman (for example) And why not? I don't see why other master swordsman can't join Squall, I don't see why that imaginary swordsman couldn't have joined Squall. Squall showed to be the best, at least among all the organizations of fighters in the whole world.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh yes, surely he does. No denying that. But is it impossible for someone who does not use a gunblade to be a better swordsman than someone who does? No? You already admitted as much. Then it does not show him to be the absolute greatest.
Impossible? No. Likely? Neither. Better than Squall? I hardly see that as possible with all the evidence supporting me. Seifer uses a Gunblade and he can't beat Squall. To train with a Gunblade you need to show MORE skills than with a normal blade. Squall does show to be the greatest swordsman in his world yes, pretty much actually.
Originally posted by TacDavey
So it is impossible for someone who is not head of garden to be a better swordsman that someone who is? No? Then it does not show him to be the absolute greatest.
But it is impossible, but it is impossible, but it is possible, but it is possible, that's all you have to ask, lame. Squall earned all of what he have earned just because the Headmaster likes Squall and he's his favorite student? He assigned him as a leader in a mission to save the entire Universe just because he don't had any other SeeD to do it in his place? He didn't cared about Squall's capabilities? He could have sent other random student to that mission? Don't make me laugh. Now you'll ask: 'but it iz impozzible 4 sum1 dat is not sent 2 save da universe to b better than squall'? Unrelated faulty logic. So all the things that has been set in the story-line seems for you to have been occurred just for coincidence? So Squall is a random guy that had luck? Don't make me laugh.
Originally posted by TacDavey
So because it was destined to be Squall who defeated Ultimicia, that means he is the greatest swordsman in the whole world? No? It says nothing of his swordsmanship skills, it just means he was destined to do it, and it does not show him to be the greatest.
So the one destined to defeat the most powerful being in the Universe doesn't seem to be indeed the greatest warrior and hero for you? Are you serious? It says nothing of his swordsmanship skills? What have you been smoking? Squall has showed to be a master swordsman BEFORE defeating Ultimecia. It shows GREATNESS in all aspect and logic.
Originally posted by TacDavey
One more time. Is the definition of legendary "greatest in the whole world"? No? Then it does not show him to be the greatest.
Yes, in the Final Fantasy VIII world, it seems you have a really hard time understanding this.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes it is, GreiverSquall. It is a defined fallacy called an "argument for ignorance" and it is faulty reasoning. Just because there is no mention of someone doesn't mean they don't exist.
No, it isn't. This isn't fallacy at all, this is a logical reasoning with facts supporting my stance. Facts that are in my favor and not in yours. Facts, evidences, that suggest that Squall is obviously the best swordsman in his world, simple as that. Just because there is not mention of someone that is better in these terms (swordsmanship) doesn't mean that exist either. That argument can't break through all the evidence from the story-line, you'll have to deal with it.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Not one of your points shows that Squall is the absolute greatest swordsman in the entire world. And guess what. Layering them on top of one another doesn't either. You can have all the faulty reasoning in the world, if none of them show Squall to be the greatest then they don't show Squall to be the greatest. It doesn't matter how many you have. I have responded to each one personally. Not one of them shows with absolute certainty that Squall is the greatest swordsman in the entire FF8 world. Not one.
Of course it does, the thing here is that your attempt to refute them all isn't sufficient, you have nothing from the story-line itself supporting you and to prove me wrong, you hardly have knowledge about Fianal Fantasy VIII as I have noticed, that's why. You have some logic that can't be applied to an story that clearly shows what I'm suggesting, is clear. It doesnt matter how hard you try, this is irrefutable, I'm afraid. I have responded to each of your failed refutations as well and I'll keep doing it to prove how wrong you are, you don't show a logical reasoning, you are using a logic outside a game and that won't help you in this case. 'i call mah doag legendary', sure that helped you much. In fact, Squall showed to be the best swordsman in the planet.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You points show that he is a good, even great swordsman, but not that he is the best.
My logical reasoning, points, facts, evidences from the game/story-line shows Squall being the best of the best, get over it.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You are letting the fact that you like Squall cloud your logical reasoning and it is stunningly apparent. Even if you don't see it.
Off-topic.
Me liking Squall has nothing to do with anything. Sorry if the game disagrees with you, you'll have to play to be able to understand, I can see that you hardly know even about Final Fantasy VII, or maybe you don't remember much, well I am not to blame. Find yourself the answers in the story-line if you don't agree, still the logic is in my side.
Originally posted by TacDavey
The jury is still out on GFs, I'm not completely positive they aren't game mechanics. Their status in FF8's story on how they work with people is a little gray. For instance, we all know that GFs don't determine if Squall can use items or not. They almost appear to come off as equipable items like swords or armor. I didn't want to bring them back in because, quite frankly, I am already pressed to respond to all of what we are talking about now.
The GFs are part of the story-line. Now you demonstrated how much you know about Final Fantasy VIII. DO a research for God's sake.
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, you cannot apply that logic here. Squall didn't fight an army of Seeds all by himself.
Cloud didn't fought an army of SOLDIERS either, what's your point?
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, that says nothing to them being super human. That isn't a super human feat in FF standards, unless you want to conclude that almost every character in FF games are super human.
I'm covering some of Indridcold quotes here.
GFs enhances humans strengths, speed and capabilities, it allow them to use Magic and to Summon. We can say all the Final Fantasy characters are provided with these feats? No, we can't. Keep denying the facts, you're making yourself a lot of favors.
Originally posted by TacDaveyIt's called Final "Fantasy." Not Final "Realism." Half the thing's I say to you, I don't believe I am saying myself but it's as if you force the situation. You say it's easy to look at things from the standpoint of a fantasy world. But just the fantasy world of Final Fantasy 7. In Final fantasy 7, Jenova plays an integral role in the story, moreso than GF's do in Final fantasy 8. Therefore it is easier for you to incorporate Jenova cells into your arguement and say it's a part of the actual storyline. In Final fantasy 8 it is much harder to use GF's, because they are rarely mentioned, but directly influence the story itself. 8 SeeD's were dispatched to Dollet to fight an army, the regular army of Dollet were getting their ass kicked and had to retreat. So 8 SeeD's were sent in.
I really can't believe what I just read. We have to look at the reality of the FF world. It's perfectly possible to look at something from the standpoint of a fantasy world, IndridCold. We know how things work in Superman's world. Cryptonite hurts him etc. That world doesn't exist, but we can easily look at it and make assessments based off of the world. It's very easy to determine what is a game mechanic and what isn't. It's not hard at all.If we follow your logic, then we should be assuming that Squall waits for turns to attack, and has giant magic numbers popping up over his head. But I ask again, where were the numbers when he took the hit from Edea? Why wasn't he waiting in his fight with Seifer? Because all of that is a game mechanic, and as far as the FF8 world is concerned, it isn't real. It is just plain wrong to say we cannot know what the reality of a fantasy world is. You argument that we should lump everything into a game mechanic is completely irrational, and has been refuted. I will not argue from that stand point. If you wish to continue with the mind set that everything is a game mechanic, then you may debate as such with another, because I will not. It is completely illogical, and has no place in this debate.
If I can directly link SeeD missions as being on par with what members of can Soldier do, I can easily come to the conclusion that they themselves can operate at a superhuman level. I make that conclusion because you have said that those enjected with mako cell enhancements are indeed superhumans....I think this is a logical conclusion, and I think you may even agree with me on that. Please don't argue that it really doesn't matter and that Cloud is better than most Soldiers anyways, I agree with you....Cloud puts most to shame. My arguement here is strictly SeeD vs Soldier. I'll get to my point later...
This is probably where we will have more friction....
Originally posted by TacDaveyYes, I Can apply that logic here because Ultimecia fought armies of SeeDs. How about the thousands of dead SeeDs that loam under her castle. She created the castle for the sole purpose of being able to look down and laugh at their dead bodies. Countless SeeDs died trying to kill her. Even the SeeD special forces that existed for the sole purpose of fighting sorceresses fell before her with ease. Squall was the only one that could touch Ultimecia. She controlled the sorceresses of the past, caused wars, cast Time Compression, and was ultimately killed by The Legendary SeeD, Squall Leonhart. Ultimecia thought that the best way to defy her fate was to follow through with it perfectly, bringing Squall to her time period so that she might instead kill HIM. Obviously, it didn't work. But anyways by this logic, I can not only argue that most SeeDs arent as strong Squall, I can argue that Squall is indeed the most powerful SeeD.
(Originally posted by IndridCold
On the superhuman topic...You fail to understand that sending 8 SeeD initiates to fight an entire army is worthy of Soldier standards. you argue that most Soldier arent as strong as Cloud. Well by that logic most SeeDs arent as strong as Squall.)No, you cannot apply that logic here. Squall didn't fight an army of Seeds all by himself.
Originally posted by TacDavey""Legendary" doesn't mean "greatest in the world" at the very WORST, it means elite." There...I had to correct that. You don't achieve the title Legendary without being elite in whatever it is you excel at. Everybody whom is Legendary is already elite in relation to what it is they are good at, for the most part that's a given. By saying Legend's are at the very "best" elite, your almost implying that people whom are simply mediocre, or good can achieve the title "legendary" and that would be a tremedous downplay to that word. You are trying to fight logic, by downplaying words. Something you have accused me of doing in the past. And besides...Take a look at this...When Squall and Ultimecia actually have dialogue between the two of them she specifically refers to him as "the legendary seed thats destined to fight me." "THE LEGENDARY SEED" not "a legendary seed" or "some legendary seed." "The Legendary Seed." Thats not plural...Thats nots a title everyone gets...thats one person. One Legend. Even if there were more than one legend, there is generally one "The Legend." Rational example.....
"Legendary" doesn't mean "greatest in the world" at the very best, it means elite.
EXAMPLE: Some figures that could be seen as legendary in Soldier are Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth......you may disagree with the characters I selected, but all the same, I'm just using this as an example...If you were to ask somebody who is "The Legendary Soldier?"
Most people would probably say Sephiroth because he was concidered the best of the best. He would be concidered "The Legendary Soldier." He was the f'in Michael Jordan of Soldier lol I doubt anybody else could carry that title.
Squall is referred to as "The Legendary SeeD." A title that I doubt any SeeD other than "the best of the best" could carry.
Anyways I've successfully and logically argued Squall to the top.
I've logically shown that he can operate on a superhuman level, SeeD's are doing the same thing's "superhuman" Soldier's are. (I can't stress this enough...I'm not arguing Squall vs Cloud there...Just showing you that Yes, in the story line SeeD can do what Soldier can do.)
You said I couldn't show Squall to be one of the best SeeD's, Because he didnt defeat a bunch of SeeD's like Cloud defeated a bunch of Soldier members. However, Showing the onslaught Ultimecia laid upon thousands of SeeD's before Squall example is EASILY enough to say Squall is one of the strongest SeeD's of all time. If you don't believe me..reread it.
To add insult to injury for you, Ultimecia specifically calls him "The Legendary Seed" a title worthy of Sephiroth, the crittically acclaimed most powerful character in Final Fantasy 7. (of course he would be called "The Legendary Soldier" lol)
There you have it, I argued using not a single battle mechanic, and in a "logical" storyline sense. Not to say battle elements shouldn't be included of course.
Originally posted by TacDaveyYes, I want to conclude that Most have superhuman ability in some way or another....maybe not all....but sure, some do. Take Final Fantasy 4 for example.....Cecil and company were walking around on the moon...without spacesuits lol how awesome is that...those guys are probably so freakin tough they would mop the floor with Cloud and Squall 🙂
No, that says nothing to them being super human. That isn't a super human feat in FF standards, unless you want to conclude that almost every character in FF games are super human.
Ahem.
There are far too many points for me to reply to each of them individually. So I'm starting over and will reply to each argument in general.
First up GrieverSquall.
You claim that the amount of feats you have supplied for Squall show him to be the greatest swordsman in the world. However, at the same time, you admitted that NONE of them actually show him to be the greatest swordsman in the world. I went through each, and you admitted, in general, that these feats alone do not prove that Squall is the absolute best. You admitted that it is certainly possible that, in each of these examples, there is still someone out there who could be better. No one of those arguments truly proves that Squall is the greatest swordsman in the world, as I have shown.
It seems to me, that you wish to claim that all of them together show Squall to be the best. But this is not so. If none of those arguments show Squall being the greatest, then the argument in general fails to do so as well. It doesn't matter the NUMBER of arguments you have.
Now, knowing you, I realize that you will discard this unwelcome fact, as if it were simply my opinion, but it is not. As with your "argument of ignorance". The fact of the matter is that that is a fallacy. It isn't my opinion that it is a fallacy any more than it is my opinion the sun is yellow. It is what it is. What you have supplied is the textbook definition of "argument of ignorance" and as such is a fallacy. I'm sorry.
Back to the debate of Squall being the greatest swordsman in the world, if you truly wish to proceed with this argument, you will need to specify exactly which of these arguments PROVE that Squall is better than EVERYONE. That means, that whatever argument you bring must show that there is not any swordsman, or even the possibility that there is a swordsman out there better than Squall. It must somehow relate to the swordsmen of the world and show him superior to them. If it does not, then it does not show him to be the greatest. It only speaks of his skill.
Moving on, since these two are related...
The Legendary comment.
legendary does not mean "greatest in the whole world." It's easy to see this, as we know, that it is perfectly possible to have two legendary swordsmen, is it not? However, if the word Legendary REQUIRES you to be the greatest swordsman in the whole world, then it would be logically IMPOSSIBLE to have two legendary swordsmen. It IS possible to have two legendary swordsman, however, thus it does not mean greatest in the world.
Aside from that, from what I hear. Ultimicia refers to Squall as the legendary SeeD because he is destined to defeat her. It is more of a prediction, the term legendary is not used, in this sense, to show Squalls skill with anything, much less with the sword.
You may not agree with this interpretation, and I'm sure you don't. But either way, the fact that Ultimicia termed him "the legendary SeeD destined to defeat me" does not mean he is the greatest swordsman in the world.
All it means is that he is predestined to do this.
Now, the Icicle argument...
This seems to have boiled down to the two of you claiming that Squall did not pass out after the icicle hit him.
You have given me a wide range of other "possibilities" none of which, I'm sorry to say, make much sense.
The fact is, Squall took the icicle attack and stood standing. It did not hit him off the float. This shows that it was not the icicle that caused him to fall, but rather he fell of his own inability to remain standing. There is no other viable explanation as to why Squall would suddenly, and for no reason according to you two, topple over.
If Squall could truly weather that attack, then what happened to cause him to fall?
The developers even presented the scene in the classic "passing out" fashion by having him remain standing, look up at Rinoa, and then slowly fall backwards into blackness as the sounds around him fade away.
The ideas you have put forward are not supported by any evidence, and don't adequately account for the scene. Anyone who wasn't arguing this debate could clearly see Squall was passing out.
Now, the army of SeeDs part.
I take it from IndridColds post that you wish to claim that, since Ultimicia had tons of bodies of SeeDs around her castle, and since Squall defeated Ultimicia, that he could thus defeat all those SeeDs if they were thrown at him all at once. That is not quite true, however. We know that Squall is better than the average SeeD, as Cloud is better than the average Soldier. But we don't see evidence that Squall could defeat an army of SeeDs all by himself. Even if it were true that Ultimicia takes out armies at a time, we can't make the claim that Squall can. At best we can deduce that Squall and his team could take out armies of SeeDs and even that is a little sketchy.
In the end, what would it matter anyway? Even if we show that Squall can take out an army of SeeDs at once, it still doesn't really prove anything. All it would truly show is that Cloud and Squall can both take out armies.
I think that's enough for now. If I missed any arguments I apologize, but responding to each one individually is becoming overwhelming.
Originally posted by TacDaveyI understand your point lol I am glad I am not in your shoes. I'll try to keep posts to a minimum. All in all though I'm not tring to get you to admit Squall would defeat Cloud. I just happen to be in the boat that think he would. To me, it is just blashphemy that you would think Squall isn't even in the same league as he is, I simply am trying to get you to say that yes...it is possible that Squall could rival Cloud in power. Thats all, nothing more, nothing less. I have absolutly no doubt that if Square were to make a Squall vs Cloud fight, it would more than likely be a draw and end in stalemate. For obvious reasons.
I think that's enough for now. If I missed any arguments I apologize, but responding to each one individually is becoming overwhelming.
Originally posted by TacDaveyWell no, thats not when I meant at all. But now that you mention it, sure I do believe he could do that as well. I was simply making a counter-arguement to your Cloud defeated waves of Soldier, which in turn made a him very powerful warrior or the best in his respective special force (Soldier). Squall did what thousands of other SeeDs before him couldn't do, and that was down Ultimecia. Which in turn makes him very powerful and the best in his respective force (SeeD). The fact that Ultimecia defeated waves of SeeD's, and was defeated by Squall does suggest that they may be able to do the same thing she did. Defeat waves of Seed's. It doesn't go entirely without merit, and can be argued. I think what Squall did was enough though, and for the sake of another endless arguement, I really don't want to go there lol
I take it from IndridColds post that you wish to claim that, since Ultimicia had tons of bodies of SeeDs around her castle, and since Squall defeated Ultimicia, that he could thus defeat all those SeeDs if they were thrown at him all at once. That is not quite true, however. We know that Squall is better than the average SeeD, as Cloud is better than the average Soldier. But we don't see evidence that Squall could defeat an army of SeeDs all by himself. Even if it were true that Ultimicia takes out armies at a time, we can't make the claim that Squall can. At best we can deduce that Squall and his team could take out armies of SeeDs and even that is a little sketchy.
Originally posted by TacDaveyYou and Griever can argue about swordplay all you guys want, thats really irrelevent to me.
Aside from that, from what I hear. Ultimicia refers to Squall as the legendary SeeD because he is destined to defeat her. It is more of a prediction, the term legendary is not used, in this sense, to show Squalls skill with anything, much less with the sword.
Ultimecia specifically mentions there is only one SeeD that can defeat her. Keep in mind, she can look into the past, and into the future as well as the present for the SeeD. She mentions to Squall in dialogue that he is that one SeeD. That alone, Legendary title or no, is enough to ascertain Squall is the most powerful SeeD to have ever existed, because Ultimecia can look into all of existence itself. She picked him...Squall was the one SeeD.....He's like Neo dude...lol
And one more thing before I post this. I'm going to drop the icicle arguement. Mainly for the sake of letting you be able to post lol I really do think that is irrelevent as well. You yourself said that it wouldn't prove either Cloud or Squall to win, it's just a small factor. Concidering it happened so early in each characters respective game, and so well before the feats that made Squall and Cloud great, I do not think it is relevent in this fight now.