Cloud vs Squall

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He isn't doing ANYTHING? Except he's grabbing the Masamune with a very mad face. Except he's shaking his legs. Ok, I get that. Now following your own words, 'Cloud didn't tried anything cuz Seph would have retaliated'. Where's your evidence on Cloud's thoughts? And if that were true, what's the difference? Do you really think that 'hanging there' doing nothing is better than trying something? So Cloud thought he had a chance by hanging there? So Cloud forgot about his friends, the planet and his own life just for hanging there? It doesn't follow. Your argument is illogical and ridiculous.

You said he didn't, not that he couldn't, and I said he DID tried, and he couldn't. See the difference? And if you say he couldn't do his reactor stunt because the situation was different, then by that logic he can't do it in an actual fight. Thing is, Cloud simply did that in the reactor for reasons I have posted already.

As long as she's part of that TEAM, then she used Materia, thus is fact that she used Materia. 🙂

I don't even care about Zack, you brought him up despite in not using AC, and I never said he was stronger than Cloud, you said you would argue he is stronger than Zack. 😐

Nope, Squall had to show up first, then locate Zell's position, then find a spot to jump, and then jump. That takes some seconds, but the jump alone is just around 1 second.

No, I didn't, I showed a Squall's speed feat and now I wanna see a Cloud's speed feat, that's how things usually works here, ya know?

No it isn't. He's grabbing the sword because he's it's sticking through him. He never, at any point, tried pulling himself up the blade. Did you see him do that? I sure didn't. He never even tried. He just hung there. And it's not like he was hanging there all that long. He wasn't even kicking his legs. He was just hanging there.

What reasons? PIS? I've already talked about PIS. He did it because he could. It's logic. If he couldn't do it, he wouldn't have. Since he did, he obviously has the ability to perform the action.

That was a joke, right? Tell me it was a joke. Just in case it wasn't, though, I'll respond to it. We know that the team used materia throughout the game. We don't know what materia they used, or who in the team used it. It's perfectly possible that Tifa didn't use any materia at all, since it's completely up to the player to decide who uses materia. However, it is NOT up to the player to decide if Tifa uses her fists or not. So we KNOW Tifa fights monsters with her fists, but we DON'T know she uses materia. Because again, it's up to the player to decide if she does or doesn't. The simple fact that she is in a team that uses materia DOES NOT in any way shape or form, mean that SHE HERSELF uses materia. That is about the worst line of reasoning I have seen in a long time, right behind the super speed jump we are talking about now.

I said Cloud is at least on par with a soldier first class. You said he wasn't. That's what started it.

That doesn't take any more than a second. Less than a second, in fact. All he has to do is show up and see Zell's in trouble to react. That takes less than a second. Stop trying to act like there is a drawn out, time consuming process involved with seeing someone in trouble and jumping in to save them. If it took that long, no one would ever get saved.

But Squall's speed feat is still in question, and I don't, for a second, recognize it as valid evidence. That jump is normal speed. Had I the ability to jump that high and far, it would take me the exact same amount of time it took Squall. Do you see how fast he is moving when he comes on screen? That's normal speed, and is the speed he did the jump in.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
And you said a normal person can't do it.

unless you meant a normal person can't handle their sword like him and if that is what you meant, elaborate more on it, it just sounds like you're saying that a normal person can't wield it one handed.

Yeah, a normal person cant wield the buster sword like that. Not just one handed, it's how he does it one handed. A normal person may be able to swing it one handed, but it would be amazingly difficult and unwieldy. Cloud, however, swings it as easily as you or I would swing a wooden training sword.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No it isn't. He's grabbing the sword because he's it's sticking through him. He never, at any point, tried pulling himself up the blade. Did you see him do that? I sure didn't. He never even tried. He just hung there. And it's not like he was hanging there all that long. He wasn't even kicking his legs. He was just hanging there.

What reasons? PIS? I've already talked about PIS. He did it because he could. It's logic. If he couldn't do it, he wouldn't have. Since he did, he obviously has the ability to perform the action.

It is. Yes, just like he did in the reactor, because it's sticking through him. I don't think he grabbed it because he liked it, he clearly wanted to get off the attack. Just because he isn't grabbing the sword with both hands doesn't mean anything, as far as I know he's stronger now. The 'hanging there' doesn't follow at all. Just no.

I remember you brought up PIS, by justifying Coud's action with his hometown. Not only that, the whole scene was PIS, why Seph didn't let go the sword? Hmm? The fact of Sephiroth's condition would have allowed anyone to pull something against him too. Cloud was at full strength, and had just to endure a small stab in the stomach and being lifted. Someone a bit better than Cloud, 'cause he wasn't the best ShinRa infantryman would have done it as well. Cloud sucked. In a desperation effort to save his life, he sucked less. You pretty much said that in a different situation he wouldn't be able to. There you have some reasons.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That was a joke, right? Tell me it was a joke. Just in case it wasn't, though, I'll respond to it. We know that the team used materia throughout the game. We don't know what materia they used, or who in the team used it. It's perfectly possible that Tifa didn't use any materia at all, since it's completely up to the player to decide who uses materia. However, it is NOT up to the player to decide if Tifa uses her fists or not. So we KNOW Tifa fights monsters with her fists, but we DON'T know she uses materia. Because again, it's up to the player to decide if she does or doesn't. The simple fact that she is in a team that uses materia DOES NOT in any way shape or form, mean that SHE HERSELF uses materia. That is about the worst line of reasoning I have seen in a long time, right behind the super speed jump we are talking about now.

I said Cloud is at least on par with a soldier first class. You said he wasn't. That's what started it.

Lulz. No, the creators never makes jokes about their statements. Indeed, we don't know what Materia they used, but that's not even the point. However, if the team used Materia, then it's the collective team that used Materia, thus all used Materia. If Tifa wouldn't be part of the team, then we can safely assume she never has used Materia. Since she IS part of that team (the collective team that used Materia), then she used Materia, just like everyone else used Materia. It doesn't even matter if it's up to the player who uses it in gameplay, it is fact they DID used Materia in the story/universe/plot. Yes, it's up to the player if she uses her fists or not, I can make her fight only with Magic if I want, hell, I can make her kill Cloud, but that wouldn't be mean she's stronger than him now, am I correct!? The simple fact that it is stated that they do not use Materia anymore because it drains the planet's life, it means they used them before, the fact that Yuffie has a box full of them ready to use it means t they experimented with Materia before, the fact that Yuffie steals their Materia in FFVII and also means they were using them. Unless you're going against canon and the creators' official statements, which I wouldn't recommend you, if you don't want to look bad even more with your noticeable lack of knowledge about FF, drop the t3h point. And if it's 'da worst line of reasoning', cuz you're SO amazing at logic, why da hell yer even arguing it? Get real. Plus, NO U. 🙂

Wrong. Not every 1st Class SOLDIER are the same in combat skills, attributes, capabilities, etc. Sephiroth and Angeal were both 1st Class but Sephiroth was stronger than him, also Genesis. And Cloud claims he's one of them, because it was Zack the one who was one of them. Cloud never made it into SOLDIER. 'Cause he has Jenova Cells and a SOLDIER teatment now doesn't mean he's somehow on par with 1st Class SOLDIERs.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That doesn't take any more than a second. Less than a second, in fact. All he has to do is show up and see Zell's in trouble to react. That takes less than a second. Stop trying to act like there is a drawn out, time consuming process involved with seeing someone in trouble and jumping in to save them. If it took that long, no one would ever get saved.

But Squall's speed feat is still in question, and I don't, for a second, recognize it as valid evidence. That jump is normal speed. Had I the ability to jump that high and far, it would take me the exact same amount of time it took Squall. Do you see how fast he is moving when he comes on screen? That's normal speed, and is the speed he did the jump in.

The room wasn't precisely small, and it was far away from Squall's position. it took him time to show up, unless you suggest he used super-speed before showing up. And when Squall showed up he had to locate Zell's position first, it's logic, he didn't know where he was exactly. If you had the ability to jump that high, that far, and put to sleep an armed security guard without breaking a sweat, I will call you super-human. 🙂

For me dat Squall's super-speed/agility/strength feat is a fact, it is demonstrated through the entire thread. No one even noticed Squall's jump, and the place was pretty much full of armed security guards and soldiers, Zell said there were too many, so it is impossible that anyone wouldn't have noticed Squall's jump if that was so 'normal speed'. As far as I can see, no one even fired at him, not after he was talking with Zell and stuff. Just look at Zell's reaction too, it's in delay, he reacts to Squall 2 seconds later he appeared. No one (not even Zell) could jump and do it despite in being 'normal speed' either. And if you go by that we can see on screen, we can also see most characters in fiction dodging and blocking bullets, and I wouldn't stupidly say that's normal speed 'coz i can c it!'. Also, I am quite positive that the blue aura means something. Super-speed indeed. Deal with it gramps.

NOW CLOUD'S FEATS PLEASE!!! pokey

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
It is. Yes, just like he did in the reactor, because it's sticking through him. I don't think he grabbed it because he liked it, he clearly wanted to get off the attack. Just because he isn't grabbing the sword with both hands doesn't mean anything, as far as I know he's stronger now. The 'hanging there' doesn't follow at all. Just no.

I remember you brought up PIS, by justifying Coud's action with his hometown. Not only that, the whole scene was PIS, why Seph didn't let go the sword? Hmm? The fact of Sephiroth's condition would have allowed anyone to pull something against him too. Cloud was at full strength, and had just to endure a small stab in the stomach and being lifted. Someone a bit better than Cloud, 'cause he wasn't the best ShinRa infantryman would have done it as well. Cloud sucked. In a desperation effort to save his life, he sucked less. You pretty much said that in a different situation he wouldn't be able to. There you have some reasons.

Lulz. No, the creators never makes jokes about their statements. Indeed, we don't know what Materia they used, but that's not even the point. However, if the team used Materia, then it's the collective team that used Materia, thus all used Materia. If Tifa wouldn't be part of the team, then we can safely assume she never has used Materia. Since she IS part of that team (the collective team that used Materia), then she used Materia, just like everyone else used Materia. It doesn't even matter if it's up to the player who uses it in gameplay, it is fact they DID used Materia in the story/universe/plot. Yes, it's up to the player if she uses her fists or not, I can make her fight only with Magic if I want, hell, I can make her kill Cloud, but that wouldn't be mean she's stronger than him now, am I correct!? The simple fact that it is stated that they do not use Materia anymore because it drains the planet's life, it means they used them before, the fact that Yuffie has a box full of them ready to use it means t they experimented with Materia before, the fact that Yuffie steals their Materia in FFVII and also means they were using them. Unless you're going against canon and the creators' official statements, which I wouldn't recommend you, if you don't want to look bad even more with your noticeable lack of knowledge about FF, drop the t3h point. And if it's 'da worst line of reasoning', cuz you're SO amazing at logic, why da hell yer even arguing it? Get real. Plus, NO U. 🙂

Wrong. Not every 1st Class SOLDIER are the same in combat skills, attributes, capabilities, etc. Sephiroth and Angeal were both 1st Class but Sephiroth was stronger than him, also Genesis. And Cloud claims he's one of them, because it was Zack the one who was one of them. Cloud never made it into SOLDIER. 'Cause he has Jenova Cells and a SOLDIER teatment now doesn't mean he's somehow on par with 1st Class SOLDIERs.

The room wasn't precisely small, and it was far away from Squall's position. it took him time to show up, unless you suggest he used super-speed before showing up. And when Squall showed up he had to locate Zell's position first, it's logic, he didn't know where he was exactly. If you had the ability to jump that high, that far, and put to sleep an armed security guard without breaking a sweat, I will call you super-human. 🙂

For me dat Squall's super-speed/agility/strength feat is a fact, it is demonstrated through the entire thread. No one even noticed Squall's jump, and the place was pretty much full of armed security guards and soldiers, Zell said there were too many, so it is impossible that anyone wouldn't have noticed Squall's jump if that was so 'normal speed'. As far as I can see, no one even fired at him, not after he was talking with Zell and stuff. Just look at Zell's reaction too, it's in delay, he reacts to Squall 2 seconds later he appeared. No one (not even Zell) could jump and do it despite in being 'normal speed' either. And if you go by that we can see on screen, we can also see most characters in fiction dodging and blocking bullets, and I wouldn't stupidly say that's normal speed 'coz i can c it!'. Also, I am quite positive that the blue aura means something. Super-speed indeed. Deal with it gramps.

NOW CLOUD'S FEATS PLEASE!!! pokey

Just no? That's your response? Cloud wasn't trying to retaliate. He wasn't doing anything at all! Look t the scene. He's just hanging there. He isn't pulling himself up the blade, he isn't pushing himself off the blade. He's just hanging there. He isn't even squirming!!!

Now you are claiming that a normal infantry man can pull himself up a sword and toss a full grown man off a cliff? Back it up. I've never seen an infantry do anything near that at all.

I'm sorry, GreiverSquall, but that line of reasoning is extremely flawed. Just because the team used materia, doesn't mean everyone in the team used materia. Say 2 out of 3 people use materia. That still means their team uses materia, even though that one person doesn't. Just because their team is known to have used materia, doesn't mean EVERYONE in their team used it. Quite frankly I am amazed that you are defending this horribly flawed argument.

Cloud is one of the strongest swordsman in the FF7 world. He's second only to Sephiroth.

Not if I was in the FF8 world I wouldn't be. You really think it takes a long time to see where a person is? How long does it take you, honestly? Cause I can walk into a room and in less than a second find out who's in there. It's called using your eyes.

Maybe they did notice the jump. It's not like they could do anything about it. Besides, they don't start shooting until after Squall does the bonk on Zells head thing. Was that all in super speed too? The blue aura was placed in for effect. You see the same thing when a character attacks with most any weapon in a game. That doesn't mean they are swinging them at super speed.

Cloud's feats? I've given them already. This whole thread is full of them. What more do you want?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Just no? That's your response? Cloud wasn't trying to retaliate. He wasn't doing anything at all! Look t the scene. He's just hanging there. He isn't pulling himself up the blade, he isn't pushing himself off the blade. He's just hanging there. He isn't even squirming!!!

My response is spread, in at least, three of my previous posts, which you ignored. I responded, and I never got a response back, just the same repetitions of your words. Look, I brought up the point I am currently responding to.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Sephiroth didn't retaliate because Cloud didn't try to do it. If he had, he would have. Cloud isn't an idiot. He knows Sephiroth isn't going to sit back and watch him lift him up and toss him.

This one. Here is when you say that Cloud didn't do anything, because he knew Sephiroth would have retaliated. That makes me think that Cloud thought he would have a chance to save himself by hanging there then without (according to you) retaliating. This, obviously, doesn't follow. Yes, Cloud isn't an idiot, but you know WHY? 'Cause he wouldn't waste his last opportunity to survive, he would never let Sephiroth to finish him off while being lifted, nor he would let him to kill his friends and then use the Planet as a vessel. Cloud is an idiot, if he waits there for Sephiroth's attack. What's so difficult to graps from that? Do you realize he was losing the fight, right? Why you assume he cared about Sephiroth's reaction? Where's you evidence on that? Nothing suggest Cloud didn't do anything because he feared Sephiroth's reaction. That was Sephiroth's revenge, the scene is basically the same, Cloud couldn't pull off anything against Sephiroth because he tried to move, but he couldn't, or, because he hadn't enough strength as when he was in the reactor, there are actually plenty of logical possibilities, but your argument doesn't follow. It is suggested through the entire FFVII Compilation that after his hometown's destruction, his friends' and his family's murder, Tifa dying along with Zack who was also beaten to death, Cloud summoned an unknown strength from all the disappointment and anger he felt towards his hero Sephiroth. Action which he couldn't perform in this fight due of the mentioned (and obviously different) circumstances involved in previous stances. That is supported by numerous pieces of evidence through the Compilation. But your 'he was hanging there doing nothing and chilling cuz he feared seph's reaction' argument doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Now you are claiming that a normal infantry man can pull himself up a sword and toss a full grown man off a cliff? Back it up. I've never seen an infantry do anything near that at all.

I saw, though, normal Infantrymen joining SOLDIER and showing capabilities far above Cloud's, so a stronger Infantryman could have done it, obviously with ALL the elements involved in that situation, like having Sephiroth cut in half and not taking you serious.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm sorry, GreiverSquall, but that line of reasoning is extremely flawed. Just because the team used materia, doesn't mean everyone in the team used materia. Say 2 out of 3 people use materia. That still means their team uses materia, even though that one person doesn't. Just because their team is known to have used materia, doesn't mean EVERYONE in their team used it. Quite frankly I am amazed that you are defending this horribly flawed argument.

The team are everyone, the main characters are the team. It isn't stated that... For example, Tifa and Red XIII aren't the ones that doesn't use Materia anymore because it drains the planet's life, it IS stated that the CHARACTERS, the team, doesn't use them anymore because it drains the planet's life. Nowhere is implied what you say, nowhere is stated that some of them does not use Materia anymore, is stated that NONE OF THEM does. I see no reason to think that just 1 or 2 of them only used Materia, that would have been clearly specified. By your logic I could say that no one used Materia, because 'the team doesn't mean everyone, it means just 2 or 3 characters', so in conclusion if we were discussing about Cid, Vincent, or Caith Sith, I would say the same for each one, doesn't mean Cid used, doesn't mean Vincent used, doesn't mean Caith Sith used. Your argument is ridiculous, and I can't believe you're disagreeing with official canon. You won't convince anyone besides yourself about that point.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Cloud is one of the strongest swordsman in the FF7 world. He's second only to Sephiroth.

Not if I was in the FF8 world I wouldn't be. You really think it takes a long time to see where a person is? How long does it take you, honestly? Cause I can walk into a room and in less than a second find out who's in there. It's called using your eyes.

Maybe they did notice the jump. It's not like they could do anything about it. Besides, they don't start shooting until after Squall does the bonk on Zells head thing. Was that all in super speed too? The blue aura was placed in for effect. You see the same thing when a character attacks with most any weapon in a game. That doesn't mean they are swinging them at super speed.

Cloud's feats? I've given them already. This whole thread is full of them. What more do you want?

Cloud's nowhere Seph. 😐

Neither if I would be in FFVII, but you would be by using GFs, or, by doing what Squall does. Zell wasn't alone in the room, lulz, DO YOU ACTUALLY use your eyes? That room is damn big.

With machine guns, and the room full of them, yes, they indeed could do something about a guy clearing the entire room with a jump that is supposedly so 'normal speed', and they opened fire when Quistis and Selphie showed up. No one even could jump like Squall did, not even Zell despite in being everything so 'normal'. Zell reacts at Squall's presence some seconds after Squall's slide too, so maybe the same happened to the guards. Yes, an effect for the speed of the attack, Squall wasn't in gameplay.

I see no one. Give me a speed feat. Nothing can match Squall's super-speed/agility/strength, though. The jump pretty much shows Squall's, strength (to be able to jump like that) agility, the way he slides through air and falls, and speed, the way he clears 60-70 feets in a second without being noticed nor exerting any kind of efforts and plus, by sending a man to sleep. So Squall's potential would be even greater by exerting a bit of more effort. 🙂

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
My response is spread, in at least, three of my previous posts, which you ignored. I responded, and I never got a response back, just the same repetitions of your words. Look, I brought up the point I am currently responding to.

This one. Here is when you say that Cloud didn't do anything, because he knew Sephiroth would have retaliated. That makes me think that Cloud thought he would have a chance to save himself by hanging there then without (according to you) retaliating. This, obviously, doesn't follow. Yes, Cloud isn't an idiot, but you know WHY? 'Cause he wouldn't waste his last opportunity to survive, he would never let Sephiroth to finish him off while being lifted, nor he would let him to kill his friends and then use the Planet as a vessel. Cloud is an idiot, if he waits there for Sephiroth's attack. What's so difficult to graps from that? Do you realize he was losing the fight, right? Why you assume he cared about Sephiroth's reaction? Where's you evidence on that? Nothing suggest Cloud didn't do anything because he feared Sephiroth's reaction. That was Sephiroth's revenge, the scene is basically the same, Cloud couldn't pull off anything against Sephiroth because he tried to move, but he couldn't, or, because he hadn't enough strength as when he was in the reactor, there are actually plenty of logical possibilities, but your argument doesn't follow. It is suggested through the entire FFVII Compilation that after his hometown's destruction, his friends' and his family's murder, Tifa dying along with Zack who was also beaten to death, Cloud summoned an unknown strength from all the disappointment and anger he felt towards his hero Sephiroth. Action which he couldn't perform in this fight due of the mentioned (and obviously different) circumstances involved in previous stances. That is supported by numerous pieces of evidence through the Compilation. But your 'he was hanging there doing nothing and chilling cuz he feared seph's reaction' argument doesn't make any sense.

I saw, though, normal Infantrymen joining SOLDIER and showing capabilities far above Cloud's, so a stronger Infantryman could have done it, obviously with ALL the elements involved in that situation, like having Sephiroth cut in half and not taking you serious.

The team are everyone, the main characters are the team. It isn't stated that... For example, Tifa and Red XIII aren't the ones that doesn't use Materia anymore because it drains the planet's life, it IS stated that the CHARACTERS, the team, doesn't use them anymore because it drains the planet's life. Nowhere is implied what you say, nowhere is stated that some of them does not use Materia anymore, is stated that NONE OF THEM does. I see no reason to think that just 1 or 2 of them only used Materia, that would have been clearly specified. By your logic I could say that no one used Materia, because 'the team doesn't mean everyone, it means just 2 or 3 characters', so in conclusion if we were discussing about Cid, Vincent, or Caith Sith, I would say the same for each one, doesn't mean Cid used, doesn't mean Vincent used, doesn't mean Caith Sith used. Your argument is ridiculous, and I can't believe you're disagreeing with official canon. You won't convince anyone besides yourself about that point.

Cloud's nowhere Seph. 😐

Neither if I would be in FFVII, but you would be by using GFs, or, by doing what Squall does. Zell wasn't alone in the room, lulz, DO YOU ACTUALLY use your eyes? That room is damn big.

With machine guns, and the room full of them, yes, they indeed could do something about a guy clearing the entire room with a jump that is supposedly so 'normal speed', and they opened fire when Quistis and Selphie showed up. No one even could jump like Squall did, not even Zell despite in being everything so 'normal'. Zell reacts at Squall's presence some seconds after Squall's slide too, so maybe the same happened to the guards. Yes, an effect for the speed of the attack, Squall wasn't in gameplay.

I see no one. Give me a speed feat. Nothing can match Squall's super-speed/agility/strength, though. The jump pretty much shows Squall's, strength (to be able to jump like that) agility, the way he slides through air and falls, and speed, the way he clears 60-70 feets in a second without being noticed nor exerting any kind of efforts and plus, by sending a man to sleep. So Squall's potential would be even greater by exerting a bit of more effort. 🙂

Technically, I don't know for sure that's why Cloud didn't try the reactor trick. I assumed based on the reasons I gave before. But even if that isn't the reason, though I'm pretty sure it is, that still doesn't change the fact that he wasn't trying to retaliate. Just look at the scene. If he were trying to do anything, he would be squirming, or kicking or doing SOMETHING. He isn't, though. Just because you don't think it's smart to not try and retaliate doesn't change facts. He wasn't doing anything.

But Cloud wasn't being his weak infantry man in that moment. He was using his true abilities, which are obviously far above a regular infantry mans.

It isn't stated at all of them used materia either. All we know is the TEAM, IN GENERAL used it. That doesn't mean everyone. Say, for example, everyone used materia except Tifa. That would still mean the TEAM used it. Even if they all didn't. So we can't say with 100% certainty that Tifa used materia. We can't. Sorry. It isn't logically possible. We know they owned some. We know some of them used it. We don't know who used it, or what materia they used.

That's irrelevant.

I don't care how big the room is. A quick glance around the room takes far less than a second.

Right, they didn't open fire until the rest of the team showed up. Why? Why didn't they shoot all through when Squall and Zell where having their little moment together? If they aren't going to open fire on a guy standing perfectly still, I see no reason to think not opening fire on someone jumping would be in any way odd. So it certainly doesn't provide any evidence of his jump being super speed. Zell didn't react because he was hunched down with his head covered and most likely with his eyes closed as he was getting ready to get shot. The blue aura was not suppose to show super speed at all. Like I said, auras get placed on things that aren't going super speed. Thus, when we see an aura show up, we cannot say that it's because of super speed. It's just for effect.

I don't need to show speed feats for Cloud at all, because I still don't accept Squalls supposed speed feat. It doesn't show super speed. Nor does it show super strength.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Technically, I don't know for sure that's why Cloud didn't try the reactor trick. I assumed based on the reasons I gave before. But even if that isn't the reason, though I'm pretty sure it is, that still doesn't change the fact that he wasn't trying to retaliate. Just look at the scene. If he were trying to do anything, he would be squirming, or kicking or doing SOMETHING. He isn't, though. Just because you don't think it's smart to not try and retaliate doesn't change facts. He wasn't doing anything.

But Cloud wasn't being his weak infantry man in that moment. He was using his true abilities, which are obviously far above a regular infantry mans.

Your reason of why Cloud didn't do anything doesn't make sense though. Just because you think Cloud would be an idiot to try and retaliate, doesn't change anything either, not if it isn't backed up with a good argument. Cloud was trying to get off the attack by grabbing the Masamune, he is grabbing the sword, Sephiroth was probably trying to restrain him at the same time with his hand when he was lifting him. That's why Cloud couldn't do anything, not because he didn't do anything. I gave a logical response using the plot. You gave speculations on Cloud's thoughts with no evidence.

Exactly, it was Sephiroth the one being terribly weak. Most of them joined SOLDIER though, so they were far above Cloud, IN ALL SENSE. And elaborate on the 'regular' Infantrymen, why is Cloud far above them in those advantageous circumstances?

Originally posted by TacDavey
It isn't stated at all of them used materia either. All we know is the TEAM, IN GENERAL used it. That doesn't mean everyone. Say, for example, everyone used materia except Tifa. That would still mean the TEAM used it. Even if they all didn't. So we can't say with 100% certainty that Tifa used materia. We can't. Sorry. It isn't logically possible. We know they owned some. We know some of them used it. We don't know who used it, or what materia they used.

I don't care how big the room is. A quick glance around the room takes far less than a second.

It doesn't need to be, it is stated the characters don't use them anymore, I see no reason to think that some of them don't use them anymore, when is clearly stated that none of them does it anymore, if none of them does, it means that all of them did. This: everyone used materia except Tifa would be an specification. Since we don't have such specifications, I see no reason to think that some of them did, and some of them didn't. I just follow official canon statements from the creators, and they imply the main characters used Materia, and the main characters, are 8 people, not specific characters. Nowhere in the FFVII Compilation, Ultimania Omega, Reunion Files, nor official interviews are implied that only specific characters used Materia. Sorry, it isn't. Just because you think some of them used doesn't make it be. It's the creators' words against your baseless words.

I do. When you enter to an small room with no one inside except one person, you'll find that person pretty quick, obviously, because you wouldn't need to even look around. Squall had to show up and then look up for Zell in a giant room full of people, and that doesn't take far less than a second. Squall didn't show up and jump, he located Zell's position first. And that takes, at least, 1 second.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Right, they didn't open fire until the rest of the team showed up. Why? Why didn't they shoot all through when Squall and Zell where having their little moment together? If they aren't going to open fire on a guy standing perfectly still, I see no reason to think not opening fire on someone jumping would be in any way odd. So it certainly doesn't provide any evidence of his jump being super speed. Zell didn't react because he was hunched down with his head covered and most likely with his eyes closed as he was getting ready to get shot. The blue aura was not suppose to show super speed at all. Like I said, auras get placed on things that aren't going super speed. Thus, when we see an aura show up, we cannot say that it's because of super speed. It's just for effect.

I don't need to show speed feats for Cloud at all, because I still don't accept Squalls supposed speed feat. It doesn't show super speed. Nor does it show super strength.

I do accept that refutation. Disregarding this then, I was certainly right in my previous point. Squall has beaten the soldiers before jumping, because they were pursuing Zell. If he could clear 70 feets in a second and beat a man, then he obviously could beat 5 to 6 men in a less range with simple sword slashes, 'cause, you won't suggest that all of them suddenly stopped pursuing Zell, nor that they magically disappeared from the room. They were right there, so if they didn't open fire when Squall jumped, nor they didn't do anything, then that means they weren't there, and if the weren't there, that means something made them to disappear before, and since Squall showed up, that could be mean that he has take them down first. When Quistis and Selphie showed up, more security guards came into action, which are the ones opening fire at them. That's no true, Irvine's sniper bullet is seen with a blue/red aura, and you won't suggest that a sniper bullet is traveling at normal speed. Auras and light effects on the weapons are likely made to show speed, magic, or special attacks, and Squall, as I said, wasn't in gameplay.

Ok. That's no going to help your case, then. It's not like I do accept Cloud 'supposed super-strength' feats either. So, cool, agree to disagree. 🤓

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Your reason of why Cloud didn't do anything doesn't make sense though. Just because you think Cloud would be an idiot to try and retaliate, doesn't change anything either, not if it isn't backed up with a good argument. Cloud was trying to get off the attack by grabbing the Masamune, he is grabbing the sword, Sephiroth was probably trying to restrain him at the same time with his hand when he was lifting him. That's why Cloud couldn't do anything, not because he didn't do anything. I gave a logical response using the plot. You gave speculations on Cloud's thoughts with no evidence.

Exactly, it was Sephiroth the one being terribly weak. Most of them joined SOLDIER though, so they were far above Cloud, IN ALL SENSE. And elaborate on the 'regular' Infantrymen, why is Cloud far above them in those advantageous circumstances?

It doesn't need to be, it is stated the characters don't use them anymore, I see no reason to think that some of them don't use them anymore, when is clearly stated that none of them does it anymore, if none of them does, it means that all of them did. This: everyone used materia except Tifa would be an specification. Since we don't have such specifications, I see no reason to think that some of them did, and some of them didn't. I just follow official canon statements from the creators, and they imply the main characters used Materia, and the main characters, are 8 people, not specific characters. Nowhere in the FFVII Compilation, Ultimania Omega, Reunion Files, nor official interviews are implied that only specific characters used Materia. Sorry, it isn't. Just because you think some of them used doesn't make it be. It's the creators' words against your baseless words.

I do. When you enter to an small room with no one inside except one person, you'll find that person pretty quick, obviously, because you wouldn't need to even look around. Squall had to show up and then look up for Zell in a giant room full of people, and that doesn't take far less than a second. Squall didn't show up and jump, he located Zell's position first. And that takes, at least, 1 second.

I do accept that refutation. Disregarding this then, I was certainly right in my previous point. Squall has beaten the soldiers before jumping, because they were pursuing Zell. If he could clear 70 feets in a second and beat a man, then he obviously could beat 5 to 6 men in a less range with simple sword slashes, 'cause, you won't suggest that all of them suddenly stopped pursuing Zell, nor that they magically disappeared from the room. They were right there, so if they didn't open fire when Squall jumped, nor they didn't do anything, then that means they weren't there, and if the weren't there, that means something made them to disappear before, and since Squall showed up, that could be mean that he has take them down first. When Quistis and Selphie showed up, more security guards came into action, which are the ones opening fire at them. That's no true, Irvine's sniper bullet is seen with a blue/red aura, and you won't suggest that a sniper bullet is traveling at normal speed. Auras and light effects on the weapons are likely made to show speed, magic, or special attacks, and Squall, as I said, wasn't in gameplay.

Ok. That's no going to help your case, then. It's not like I do accept Cloud 'supposed super-strength' feats either. So, cool, agree to disagree. 🤓

He was holding the sword. He wasn't pulling or pushing on it. He was just holding it. Tell me. What was his plan? What was Cloud trying to do? Was he trying to push himself off the blade or pull himself up it?

Cloud always had the ability to be better than them, he just didn't know it. When things got tough, his true abilities show up. I haven't seen any thing to suggest that an infantry man could do what Cloud did.

But I just responded to that! We know the team in general used materia. So when someone says, "they don't use it anymore" he's talking about the team in general. That doesn't lay a blanket statement over every person in the team. Nor would they say something like "Everyone except Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII don't use it anymore. Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII never used it." No, they would still say "They (meaning the team in general) don't use it anymore." It's just how people talk, GreiverSquall.

Okay, first off the room isn't THAT big. You can still do a sweep of it in less than half a second. Second, Zell doesn't look like any of the guards. He would stick out like a sore thumb amongst them. Third, you are still making claims that you cannot back up. You are talking about something that happened off screen as if you know exactly how it went down. But you can't do that GreiverSquall. It happened off screen. All we really know is that Squall showed up in time to perform a jump and save Zell. All the other stuff about "how long it took Squall to locate him, Squall had to fight off guards" etc etc is purely speculation.

Yes, sometimes auras are placed on super speed things, and sometimes they are placed on normal speed things. So the aura doesn't prove anything one way or the other. We have to go on what we see. I don't see Squall moving super speed at all. He's moving at a perfectly normal pace.

If you disagree with Cloud's above average strength points then feel free to respond to it, as I am doing with Squall's super speed points.

Originally posted by TacDavey
He was holding the sword. He wasn't pulling or pushing on it. He was just holding it. Tell me. What was his plan? What was Cloud trying to do? Was he trying to push himself off the blade or pull himself up it?

Cloud always had the ability to be better than them, he just didn't know it. When things got tough, his true abilities show up. I haven't seen any thing to suggest that an infantry man could do what Cloud did.

No, not exactly like he did in the reactor with both hands. He was grabbing the sword to try and get off it, but Sephiroth was also restraining him when he was lifting him. So I guess Cloud hadn't enough strength to keep fighting it. Never mind Cloud could have been exhausted for the fight, etc. But he certainly tried and couldn't.

Squall always had the ability to be the strongest warrior in the universe, and destroy planets using the belts from his pants, he just didn't know about it. When the entire universe is in the brink of total destruction, Squall's true abilities show up. I haven't seen any-thing to suggest that an infantryman couldn't do what Cloud did, when most of them did every-thing Cloud couldn't, by fact, do. Cloud sucked.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But I just responded to that! We know the team in general used materia. So when someone says, "they don't use it anymore" he's talking about the team in general. That doesn't lay a blanket statement over every person in the team. Nor would they say something like "Everyone except Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII don't use it anymore. Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII never used it." No, they would still say "They (meaning the team in general) don't use it anymore." It's just how people talk, GreiverSquall.

Okay, first off the room isn't THAT big. You can still do a sweep of it in less than half a second. Second, Zell doesn't look like any of the guards. He would stick out like a sore thumb amongst them. Third, you are still making claims that you cannot back up. You are talking about something that happened off screen as if you know exactly how it went down. But you can't do that GreiverSquall. It happened off screen. All we really know is that Squall showed up in time to perform a jump and save Zell. All the other stuff about "how long it took Squall to locate him, Squall had to fight off guards" etc etc is purely speculation.

Yes, sometimes auras are placed on super speed things, and sometimes they are placed on normal speed things. So the aura doesn't prove anything one way or the other. We have to go on what we see. I don't see Squall moving super speed at all. He's moving at a perfectly normal pace.

If you disagree with Cloud's above average strength points then feel free to respond to it, as I am doing with Squall's super speed points.

Nor would they say 'Only Cloud and barret did' either. Or you need an specified statement? No gramps, I'm sorry, as I said many times already, it is stated that the characters used Materia. Yuffie steals all their Materia in FFVII, which means the characters were using them. It's fact. Cloud, Tifa, Barret, whoever character you are using in your party has no Materia once she stole them from you. They also claims their Materia is gone. I can put a video if you want. They were using them. They used Materia.

Yes, it is, have you seen the prison rooms where Zell and the party were captured? They are pretty big, this room is 4 or 5 times bigger. The room was full of people, Zell wasn't right in front of Squall's face, ya know? He was in the other side of the room with a guard, and guards likely blocking Squall's sight. Zell was almost in the ground, Squall had to locate him first, you know, to save him. No, you talked about what happened off screen when you said that the guards didn't do anything about Squall's jump, etc. Plus, Zell wasn't covering his head either as you said in your previous post, and he not necessarily had his eyes closed, he could have been looking down. You have 3 seconds or 4, Squall showed up in time. The timing is logically possible, I used a logical reasoning to support the scene using the plot, and logical conclusions supported by numerous previous scenes as well. You tried to downplay and disregard every thing by claiming that is 'normal', you tried to suggest and label every action in the FFVIII universe as 'normal', and that you or me could have done what Squall did, among other incoherences that frankly makes no sense. Honestly, I've never read so many piles of irrational bullshit in a row.

No, they aren't placed on 'normal' things. This is fantasy/fiction, they are placed likely to show and to be interpreted as speed, magic, special attacks, or spiritual energy. Squall uses GFs and can control tremendous energy and enhance his body's functions. The GFs gives them strength. He's super-human. The slash aura is perfectly moving at an super-speed range, much faster than Squall's normal slash, that's indicating super-speed in its cut/trajectory. It isn't, in any way, a normal slash. Squall's jump, it isn't, any any way possible normal AT ALL. Sorry, it isn't. Squall speed-blitzed that guard. No one could did what Squall did despite in being everything so 'normal'. Guess what, it wasn't normal. You're kind of implying Squall is normal, that every thing he does is normal, or not possible for him. No. He's super-human and the strongest warrior in the Planet. I could also downplay every Cloud's feat by claiming bullshit and say it's normal, or normal for regular people and stuff, but I know, depite in disagreeing about his superiority you try to imply over Squall, that some of the things he does aren't normal, or likely not possible for normal humans.

I am currently doing it with Cloud supposed PIS/feat in the reactor.

Well, we are right back where we started from. I'd respond, but honestly, what's the point? I think we've gotten about as far as we are going to get with these points, so I'm just going to stop there for now. Until next time. And I'm sure there will be a next time.

Wouldn't Dissidia be classed as a canon because i thought the timeline on all of the final fantasy's was:

FFI - Dissidia FF
FFII - Dissidia FF
FFIII - Dissidia FF
FFIV - Dissidia FF - FFIV:TAY
FFV - Dissidia FF - FF:LotC
FFVI - Dissidia FF
BCFFVII - CCFFVII - FFVII - FFT - Dissidia FF - Novellas - FFACC
FFVIII - Dissidia FF
FFIX - Dissidia FF
FFX - Dissidia FF - FFX-2

kind of makes sense and Aerith in FFT is a different Aerith that's wot it says on FinalFantasywikia because After the fight, she asks if he wants to buy a flower for 1 gil, which Cloud is silent. Aeris asks if something is wrong, and Cloud replies that she reminds him of someone, obviously Aeris from the Final Fantasy VII world. how can it be a non-canon when FFT is a canon to Ramza and the others and is not a canon all well this is confusing me 🙁

Dissidia because all the characters from all over the main FF game get transported by the gods from there world then at the end they all go back to there homes.

Any my vote of who would win would be Squall because of his Gunblade consist of some sort of sword blade with some type of gun action built into the hilt, with its barrel running inside the length of the blade. They are mostly used like normal swords, but triggering a round sends a shockwave through the blade, creating a vibration as the weapon passes through an opponent to increase damage just to let all of you know. His main GF's are Shiva, Quetzalcoatl and Ifrit which give's him magic which he doesnt need MP and the power to summon them and boosts his stats and make's him draw magic from his foes also in dissidia Squall's magic attacks focus primarily on ice, fire and thunder spells, which may be a reference to the two Guardian Forces he uses at the start of Final Fantasy VIII, Shiva and Quezacotl and his new one he gets from his trial Ifrit. His moves are cooler like Renzokuken which does 8 hits which is the max and plus his Lionheart which does 19 amount of hits so thats 27 hits. During optimal conditions, a total of 259,974 points of damage is possible in one attack round but we are not looking at game mechanics so ignore like how much damage they can use. In KH's even though it's a non-canon I don't classify there limit breaks as non-canon. In most of his appearances in the series as a combatant Squall's most iconic attack is an attack similar to the Blasting Zone Limit Break where he increases the size of the gunblade's blade in a similar way to FFVIII. While in this mode his attacks become more powerful and his reach increases drastically. Other more mundane attacks do resemble Renzokuken techniques, such as the Fated Circle and the multi-combo swipes he sometimes uses; however, the "Blasting Zone look-a-like" is the most notable and powerful.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, we are right back where we started from. I'd respond, but honestly, what's the point? I think we've gotten about as far as we are going to get with these points, so I'm just going to stop there for now. Until next time. And I'm sure there will be a next time.

Originally posted by grey fox
Have to agree with prime here , he was lucky taking out Sephiroth the first time and the last was more of a battle of wills then pure strength.

Squall goes Lionheart on clouds ass.....

Cloud goes OMNISLASH(THe original one) on Squall!