Cloud vs Squall

Originally posted by TacDavey
Why would Ultimicia have cared? Didn't she receive some prophecy or something about Squall. It's been so long since I've played the game.

Cause she would have someone to defeat Squall other than Seifer who can't pass a test.

Originally posted by TacDavey
In Dissidia you don't form teams, so every cut scene is suppose to happen. There is nothing for you to change.

Then I would guess all those cutscenes are real for the story (whatever that is) and are as CG as those graphics can get.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
but that one wouldn't be Squall for sure.

Why? Why can't someone with a normal sword beat Squall? That's the thing, you haven't shown that there isn't someone who can.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The developers stated that the battles aren't 100% accurate, is fact. However, I don't see anything unrealistic on Squall and the rest in Dissidia AND the Dissidia producers and developers didn't stated such things about the game either, you are stating it under your personal standpoint. What? Because Advent Children was stated to be not 100% realistic that means all the new Square-Enix games aren't as well? Similar is a thing, but they aren't exactly the same. If you say that Cloud can jump like a feak he surely never showed that in his game.

You know WHY he never showed that in his game? Because he couldn't do it! But guess what, he can do it in Dissidia, can't he? Now why would that be? Oh, because Dissidia isn't an accurate representation of what the characters could originally do. It was made to be like AC, there is no denying that. It isn't my assumption, it is a logical FACT. If AC isn't an accurate representation of the characters abilities, than anything that is LIKE AC is also not an accurate representation of the characters abilities. There is no escaping this, it is undeniable.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Uh Tac, I don't deny Zidane sliding down on the wall, but you can't deny Zidane's feats, he's pretty much running on the wall as well while evading those giant roots, you can't deny facts.

No, just like you said at the start of this quote, Zidane is sliding down the wall, not running along it. He's going DOWN, not sideways. It's perfectly possible.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Plus, the Final Fantasy characters can defy Gravity, that's part of the universe itself, it doesn't mean they are flying or that they can actually fly. Cloud crossed the line in these terms though, he was overrated badly in that movie as well as the rest of the characters, I don't remember Yuffie running on the walls either and she is doing it in the film.

Yes, I know. That's the point. The film isn't accurate. The developers didn't care about being realistic. They said, "screw it, I just want to make a cool movie." So everything you see the FF7 characters doing in AC they could not do in the original FF7. Same with Dissidia.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Why? Why can't someone with a normal sword beat Squall? That's the thing, you haven't shown that there isn't someone who can.

Stop arguing logic and and stop going against facts, you just can't accept that Squall takes this with all the evidence supporting me. Squall is not just a random guy with a cool gun-blade, I've already said why. And You haven't shown that there is someone who can, you don't need either by the way. If you still want to think that 'there' could be an imaginary someone stronger, fine, I don't see how that is relevant to refute my argument anyway after all the facts supporting my stance.

Originally posted by TacDavey
You know WHY he never showed that in his game? Because he couldn't do it! But guess what, he can do it in Dissidia, can't he? Now why would that be? Oh, because Dissidia isn't an accurate representation of what the characters could originally do. It was made to be like AC, there is no denying that. It isn't my assumption, it is a logical FACT. If AC isn't an accurate representation of the characters abilities, than anything that is LIKE AC is also not an accurate representation of the characters abilities. There is no escaping this, it is undeniable.

He? Who? Squall? Of course I know why, different technology. What he can't do? Dissidia have nothing to do about comparing both intros, I repeat, both have made entirely with different CG technology and his intro (FFVIII) isn't 100% accurate representations of his abilities either, less I might add. If you claim that Dissidia isn't accurate just because Advent Children isn't, I could say any of the new games aren't either or they wouldn't be, Square-Enix is using all the same technology for their games, I don't understand how you can deny this. Even if I do accept that Dissidia isn't 100% accurate like Advent Children (of course I do not) is MORE accurate than Final Fantasy VIII's CG animations.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, just like you said at the start of this quote, Zidane is sliding down the wall, not running along it. He's going DOWN, not sideways. It's perfectly possible.

He is also running on the wall there, going down also yes I don't deny it. I repeat, they added Gameplay's characteristics to that cutscene, probably because Zidane can perform such feats and they didn't cared about THAT. You can't find something more accurate than Dissidia's intro, I'm afraid. I'm talking in general here, not just about Squall, who cares about Squall, I'm talking about all the characters, some of their games are in 2D animation so we don't know ANYTHING about their true feats so you can't judge, take Final Fantasy VI as example, I don't see anything that Terra couldn't have done in her game.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Stop arguing logic and and stop going against facts, you just can't accept that Squall takes this with all the evidence supporting me. Squall is not just a random guy with a cool gun-blade, I've already said why. And You haven't shown that there is someone who can, you don't need either by the way. If you still want to think that 'there' could be an imaginary someone stronger, fine, I don't see how that is relevant to refute my argument anyway after all the facts supporting my stance.

Stop arguing logic? What else am I suppose to argue? You made the claim that Squall was the greatest swordman in the FF8 world. I asked you to back that up, and you gave me a whole bunch of reasons that support Squall being a GOOD swordsman, but not the best. It is YOU who is lacking in the evidence, not I. The simple fact of the matter is you can't make the claim that Squall is the greatest swordsman unless they give you reason to from the game. But they never did that, they only gave you reason to think Squall was a GOOD swordsman, the game never made any implications that he was the best, you are simply drawing that conclusion yourself.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He? Who? Squall? Of course I know why, different technology. What he can't do? Dissidia have nothing to do about comparing both intros, I repeat, both have made entirely with different CG technology and his intro (FFVIII) isn't 100% accurate representations of his abilities either, less I might add. If you claim that Dissidia isn't accurate just because Advent Children isn't, I could say any of the new games aren't either or they wouldn't be, Square-Enix is using all the same technology for their games, I don't understand how you can deny this. Even if I do accept that Dissidia isn't 100% accurate like Advent Children (of course I do not) is MORE accurate than Final Fantasy VIII's CG animations.

What? No it isn't. How do you figure that? You aren't even making sense anymore. Why would Dissidia, which is shown to not be realistic of Squalls abilities, somehow be MORE realistic than the very game he came from? And don't say technology, because they had Zidane jumping around in his game. They could have made him run up walls just as easily, but they didn't. Why? because he couldn't. Look at Zidane's scene from FFIX. He's running down the wall, now, if they had WANTED to they could have had him run UP it just as easily. Why didn't they ever have him do it, huh? The technology obviously doesn't take away from the ability to have someone run on a wall, why couldn't they just change the direction he was going from down to up? They COULD have, if they had WANTED to, but they DIDN'T.

Zidane never runs up walls in his game, even though they could have made him do it if they wanted. Squall never runs up walls in his game either. They COULD have, all they had to do was use the running animation and have it going up a wall, instead of on the ground. The technology DOES NOT prevent them from animating someone running up a wall. They don't run up walls, because the developers didn't WANT THEM TO.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He is also running on the wall there, going down also yes I don't deny it.

Yes, and that is perfectly possible. Hell, I could run down a wall if I wanted to. It's not all that hard. Running UP one is a different story.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I repeat, they added Gameplay's characteristics to that cutscene,

That's completely untrue. There was no battle going on, there is no need for them to have the battle going any other way than how they wanted it to. They wanted him to run on the wall, thus he ran on the wall. This isn't a "gameplay cutscene" it's just a cutscene. They are animating what they want Zidane to be doing at that moment. Not using gameplay, using animation, granted the animation isn't as good looking as the cg ones, but that doesn't mean anything. They aren't taking the two characters and having a cinematic fight using the battle system, Zidane and Kuja are both fully animated separate from the games battle animations. It is completely it's own scene.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
some of their games are in 2D animation so we don't know ANYTHING about their true feats so you can't judge, take Final Fantasy VI as example, I don't see anything that Terra couldn't have done in her game.

What's your point? So maybe Terra can do everything she can do in Dissidia. We aren't talking about Terra, we are talking about Squall, and he DOES have a 3D game showing what he can do. And he can't do ANY of the things he can do in Dissidia.

How has Squall shown himself to be superior? [/B][/QUOTE] You'll have to forgive me if I don't post correctly, I am sort of new to these forums. But anyways Squall is superior because

He has shown himself to be more potent and pack a hell of a harder punch than Cloud can, which clearly he demostrates with most of his attacks. It completly negates your Jenova cell enhancement arguement that you use to use...True or False....Would you expect a Jenova cell enhanced "superhuman" as you would put it such as Cloud, to defeat somebody that isn't superhuman? Normally the answer would be True but in this case, Squall has the obvious sharper edge.

I remember that your arguement for this was that they were differnt games. Differnt timeframes, therefore FF8 was able to make their attacks look "flashier." I completly agree with you, however, if you were to take out the graphics in both games and just look at their attacks (numbers)"on paper," Squall clearly demonstrates his superiority.

I remember you also used to argued that they had differnt combat mechanics i.e. junction system vs materia system, which I would completly agree with however, nearly all final fantasy games have the same mechanics and parameters. They are all turned base, base health generally doesn't exceed 9,999, 255 is usually the cap for stats, hell Sephiroth and Ultemecia's health are nearly the same endgame if you have your characters maxed out etc. I would understand it if you were argueing FF7 vs FF10 because of FF10's outrageous numbers, or even FF7 vs FF12 because of completly differnt fighting systems, but definetly not FF7 vs FF8.

I would post more but I have to go to work, I'll talk to you later.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Stop arguing logic? What else am I suppose to argue? You made the claim that Squall was the greatest swordman in the FF8 world. I asked you to back that up, and you gave me a whole bunch of reasons that support Squall being a GOOD swordsman, but not the best. It is YOU who is lacking in the evidence, not I. The simple fact of the matter is you can't make the claim that Squall is the greatest swordsman unless they give you reason to from the game. But they never did that, they only gave you reason to think Squall was a GOOD swordsman, the game never made any implications that he was the best, you are simply drawing that conclusion yourself.

Yeah and he is by all the evidence supporting me, I'm afraid. Otherwise I wouldn't be thinking that he's the best without reasons. I gave you enough to support he's the best as far as the story goes, stop denying it. I'm not lacking anything, you think I'm lacking evidence but I'm clearly not. Squall's not a guy that is good with a sword, he's more skilled than you think, actually. I've played the game many times and I know what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What? No it isn't. How do you figure that? You aren't even making sense anymore. Why would Dissidia, which is shown to not be realistic of Squalls abilities, somehow be MORE realistic than the very game he came from? And don't say technology, because they had Zidane jumping around in his game. They could have made him run up walls just as easily, but they didn't. Why? because he couldn't. Look at Zidane's scene from FFIX. He's running down the wall, now, if they had WANTED to they could have had him run UP it just as easily. Why didn't they ever have him do it, huh? The technology obviously doesn't take away from the ability to have someone run on a wall, why couldn't they just change the direction he was going from down to up? They COULD have, if they had WANTED to, but they DIDN'T.

Zidane never runs up walls in his game, even though they could have made him do it if they wanted. Squall never runs up walls in his game either. They COULD have, all they had to do was use the running animation and have it going up a wall, instead of on the ground. The technology DOES NOT prevent them from animating someone running up a wall. They don't run up walls, because the developers didn't WANT THEM TO.

That's completely untrue. There was no battle going on, there is no need for them to have the battle going any other way than how they wanted it to. They wanted him to run on the wall, thus he ran on the wall. This isn't a "gameplay cutscene" it's just a cutscene. They are animating what they want Zidane to be doing at that moment. Not using gameplay, using animation, granted the animation isn't as good looking as the cg ones, but that doesn't mean anything. They aren't taking the two characters and having a cinematic fight using the battle system, Zidane and Kuja are both fully animated separate from the games battle animations. It is completely it's own scene.

I take Final Fantasy VIII's intro as an example and yes, is indeed different technology than the new Square-Enix games so far, I don't really know why are you denying this. I made this conclusion because I don't see anything exaggerated in Squall, Dissidia's intro is less exaggerated than Advent Children and I still think so, the CG animations could be the same, however, I DO REALLY think Cloud's abilities in the film are exaggerated, it is OBVIOUS that he couldn't do what he's doing there, and none of his friends, it is obvious since the developers stated such things about it. Now tell me, what Squall can't do in his game? I can beat Squall with a sword in his intro, those aren't really representations of Squall's abilities. Zidane is defying Gravity (which is part of the universe itself), he pretty much showed a lot of similar feats and he is pretty much running on a wall and standing on that giant root, just watch 9:40, he CAN DO IT. Squall has nothing to do because he isn't running on walls in any game, just in Dissidia Gameplay like the rest of the characters, but we can't take Gameplay aspects from the game itself so seriously, right? Exactly, we can't, because isn't accurate as the CG animations which pretty much showed the characters feats.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What's your point? So maybe Terra can do everything she can do in Dissidia. We aren't talking about Terra, we are talking about Squall, and he DOES have a 3D game showing what he can do. And he can't do ANY of the things he can do in Dissidia.

Squall isn't the only character in Dissidia, if we talk about Dissidia I can talk about any character as you're talking about Zidane. What he can't do in Dissidia? Final Fantasy VIII's intro aren't representations of Squall's true abilities.

It's a difficult choice to make, they're both quite good. Squall is actually my fave char in FFVIII, and FFVIII is my fave FF game, but Cloud is damn cool as well. The fight could easily just go both ways.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah and he is by all the evidence supporting me, I'm afraid. Otherwise I wouldn't be thinking that he's the best without reasons. I gave you enough to support he's the best as far as the story goes, stop denying it. I'm not lacking anything, you think I'm lacking evidence but I'm clearly not. Squall's not a guy that is good with a sword, he's more skilled than you think, actually. I've played the game many times and I know what I'm talking about.

I've been reading your arguments with Tac, and I must side with Tac on this point.

Your posts stating Squall's achievements support the fact that Squall is an excellent swordsman. He is, no denying it. One of the best in his world, no doubt. But the best? No. The only way he would be the best, is if he was stated in by the authors that he is - explicitly. Another would be if he beat someone who has been named the best swordsman.

Storywise it's even hard. Seifer's pretty close up his league, and they haven't fought one on one since their training match.

We don't know how Squall would fare against Kiros (we could argue his Kataras as small swords). All we would have the matchup are assumptions.

*edit: fixed the quotes

Originally posted by tmunoz4
I've been reading your arguments with Tac, and I must side with Tac on this point.

Your posts stating Squall's achievements support the fact that Squall is an excellent swordsman. He is, no denying it. One of the best in his world, no doubt. But the best? No. The only way he would be the best, is if he was stated in by the authors that he is - explicitly. Another would be if he beat someone who has been named the best swordsman.

Storywise it's even hard. Seifer's pretty close up his league, and they haven't fought one on one since their training match.

We don't know how Squall would fare against Kiros (we could argue his Kataras as small swords). All we would have the matchup are assumptions.

You can side with anyone, logic is sided with me.

Wrong, sometimes you don't need something specifically stated, with a logical reasoning you can take your conclusions, I gave enough to prove my stance.

Seifer isn't in Squall's league and he easily defeated him before facing Edea in one on one.

Kiros doesn't fight anymore in the game. He is not a swordsman, his weapons look like Daggers and even so Squall showed to be far stronger than him anyway, you can't take all the evidence supporting me, any of you can, so sorry.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You can side with anyone, logic is sided with me.

Wrong, sometimes you don't need something specifically stated, with a logical reasoning you can take your conclusions, I gave enough to prove my stance.

Seifer isn't in Squall's league and he easily defeated him before facing Edea in one on one.

Kiros doesn't fight anymore in the game. He is not a swordsman, his weapons look like Daggers and even so Squall showed to be far stronger than him anyway, you can't take all the evidence supporting me, any of you can, so sorry.

sometimes you do need something stated, especially in statements that are absolute like" best in the FFVIII universe".

To make it clear: I'm arguing with the assumption that by the statement best swordsman in the FFVIII universe involves:

a.) past until present
b.) the whole VIII world, including people that weren't introduced.

*this is because, if it is limited to the characters introduced, swordsmen would be limited to what, Seifer, and Squall plus some random generated fights.

Your arguments support that he is an excellent and talented swordsman. He could be the best, but nothing was shown that he is.

As in my previous post, we could argue that Kiros wields really small swords, we have no idea Squall would defeat Kiros, nor otherwise. It's just speculation. In any case, swordsman or not, the same applies to any person that may not have been introduced in the storyline.

Originally posted by tmunoz4
sometimes you do need something stated, especially in statements that are absolute like" best in the FFVIII universe".

To make it clear: I'm arguing with the assumption that by the statement best swordsman in the FFVIII universe involves:

a.) past until present
b.) the whole VIII world, including people that weren't introduced.

*this is because, if it is limited to the characters introduced, swordsmen would be limited to what, Seifer, and Squall plus some random generated fights.

Your arguments support that he is an excellent and talented swordsman. He could be the best, but nothing was shown that he is.

I said Squall is the best swordman in his world (planet), not in the whole Final Fantasy VIII universe.

Those people who weren't supposedly 'introduced' are people from your imagination. That isn't an argument.

By that logic, Ultimecia could have taken the "best swordsman in the planet or universe" instead of Seifer, don't you think?

My arguments support that Squall is indeed the best swordman.

Originally posted by tmunoz4
As in my previous post, we could argue that Kiros wields really small swords, we have no idea Squall would defeat Kiros, nor otherwise. It's just speculation. In any case, swordsman or not, the same applies to any person that may not have been introduced in the storyline.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Kiros doesn't fight anymore in the game.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's all well and good, and Squall IS a good swordsman, but the claim that there is literally NO ONE else in the WHOLE WORLD that is better is something that DEMANDS evidence, and you haven't given any. You HAVE provided evidence that Squall is a very talented swordsman, but very talented does not equal greatest in the world.

Let's not even bother continuing this, there is NO evidence that Squall is the greatest in the world. You can believe he is all you want, but you can't prove, or defend it, so it can't be used in this debate.

You may not like Squall, and may not want to admit he could defeat Cloud, but at the very least, you should concider him an equal.

Originally posted by IndridCold
There is a reason Squall is referred to as "Legendary." You don't attain that status unless you are indeed "the best of the best." I do believe in your game there was a character that was referred to as "Legendary," and he is Sephiroth because he too was concidered "the best of the best." You need to stop discrediting Squall's ability and look at things logically.

You may not like Squall, and may not want to admit he could defeat Cloud, but at the very least, you should concider him an equal.

Well said. It's sad that people can become so fanatic about an game that it's to hard for them to accept that those characters who follow might be as powerful as their favorite.

Popularity =/= power. In their games both were the protagonists, in game terms Squall did more damage with his best move, with the Movies that expanded the FF VII universe Cloud appeared more powerful then before. Should Square ever make an FF VIII Movie the feats there would outclass those from advent children. That's how it works, bigger better. That still wouldn't dismiss the fact that both, Squall and Cloud are equals IMO.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Stop arguing logic? What else am I suppose to argue?

You argue that Cloud is genetically enhanced...and Squall is just good with a sword....a superhuman vs an obsolete being....Then why is it that Squall is such a more potent character than Cloud is? Lionheart lol....Yes I am bringing it up again....Lionheart clearly demonstrates Squall's prime, among his other attacks, and clearly defeats anything Cloud (an apparent super human) can put out....You argue that it is not admissable because of game mechanics i.e. Junction system vs Materia system. You would be correct however the junction system doesn't necessarily have "jurisdiction" over Squall's attacks, or in other words, it doesn't determine the intensity of the attack (on a how many hits aspect). It is not logical to me that you would think a Superhuman (Cloud)could defeat a normal human(Squall) even though the normal human shows more skill than the other........

And lets presume for a moment that I agreed with you and it was just a game mechanic...I would argue the parameters of both FF7 and FF8 are almost entirely the same with the exception of the juction system vs materia system. It's still turned based, Max health is still 9,999, 255 is still the max cap for stats, and even the last bosses health are nearly the same if you have your characters capped. Other than the materia vs Junction systems the games are nearly identical in every aspect.

One more thing..and I don't think I'm alone here..I hardly concider Lionheart or Omnislash simply a game mechanic....They are "patented" attacks that both Squall and Cloud use....I would agree with you that it is a game mechanic if everyone could use Lionheart and everyone could use Omnislash but that is not the case. What we have here is Squall clearly having the edge when it comes to sheer power over Cloud's attacks and his patented "jenova cells." Which, mind you, all I have said up to this point clearly contradicts your arguement that Cloud would defeat Squall simply because of genetics. Even on a logical standpoint.

Next order of business...The sword wound vs the icicle wound....There are clearly a differnt set of circumstances here...When Cloud was ran through by Sephiroth's sword, let me remind you that Sephiroth was holding Cloud up by the end of the sword, Cloud was not standing of his own free will....Also it's completly logical to assume that had there not been a ledge to throw Sephiroth over, Sephiroth would have killed him there on the spot....You concider Cloud tough for this, as do I, however I also concider him very lucky for having that Ace up his sleeve because had he not, it would have more than likely been game over for Cloud....

The icicle attack. This is where we have a completly differnt set of circumstances. Squall was hit by the icicle, and then also fell 1 to 2 stories off the lift, which is competly differnt than what happened to Cloud. Any "normal human" would have been killed hands down which obviously seperates Squall from any variation of "normal." Let's not forget that after the fall Squall was completly surrounded by not only Seifer....but the Sorceress as well.....as well as the entire Galbadian Army. Like I said, completly differnt set of circumstances.

Compare...Cloud gets hit in the center of the chest....he's lucky it didnt graze his heart or he would have bled out and died lol...and conveniently had a ledge to throw sephiroth over...had he not...Sephiroth would have probably killed him right there....

Squall gets hit by the icicle, falls 1 to 2 stories, is surrounded by the entire galbadian army, Seifer, and to make matters worse, a god damn sorceress....gets imprisoned...is tortured..and still somehow manages to escape prison(granted his friend did help him) In the end, his situation was far worse and much longer than Cloud's was. Cloud's lasted a whole 10 seconds, whereas Squall had to endure much more....Squall's toughness should not be in question....

I have more but I'm interested to see what you have to say and need to sleep anyways...shoot

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Well said. It's sad that people can become so fanatic about an game that it's to hard for them to accept that those characters who follow might be as powerful as their favorite.Popularity =/= power.

The 'stab argument' means nothing.
First off, because they are different situations and not 100% comparable, I could name several things about both situations to demonstrate how faulty that logic and comparison is, but it is not worth my time.

That wouldn't determine who would win in a fight (which you need skill to win by the way and Cloud showed nothing of it). In terms of skill Squall would beat Cloud to death at that moment, if we put Cloud at the age of 16 (an ordinary infantry man against a skilled SeeD elite mercenary, he wouldn't last minutes, hands down). Simple as that.

There are versions that states that Cloud was enhanced by Mako in those moments (which by the way reinforces my stance) As we can see here, Cloud's eyes are glowing.

This image is taken from Wiki, check Wiki for more information.
After that Cloud passed out automatically, however we have zero evidence that Squall passed out after receiving tremendous blow in his right lung, and even if he did, the argument still means nothing. Why don't we look at how the characters are now?

Want more? Watch at 6:27 and see the evidence by yourself.

YouTube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Xy5caUK0k

Originally posted by IndridCold
He has shown himself to be more potent and pack a hell of a harder punch than Cloud can, which clearly he demostrates with most of his attacks.

Yes, we've been over this. The numbers that come up in a battle system are game mechanics. Just like Squall doesn't really stand there and wait for his turn to attack, his numbers he puts out mean nothing. In reality, everyone would be killed with one slash of a sword. Those are simply game mechanics and have no place in a rational debate.

Originally posted by IndridCold
I remember that your arguement for this was that they were differnt games. Differnt timeframes, therefore FF8 was able to make their attacks look "flashier." I completly agree with you, however, if you were to take out the graphics in both games and just look at their attacks (numbers)"on paper," Squall clearly demonstrates his superiority.

Same thing. The numbers are not real. They are placed in the game to, well, make it a game. In reality, they mean nothing. One slash with a sword and you go down.

Originally posted by IndridCold
There is a reason Squall is referred to as "Legendary." You don't attain that status unless you are indeed "the best of the best." I do believe in your game there was a character that was referred to as "Legendary," and he is Sephiroth because he too was concidered "the best of the best." You need to stop discrediting Squall's ability and look at things logically.

I'm not. Legendary does not mean the absolute best. It just means elite. You can have two legendary swordsman, can't you? But if a prerequisite for being called "legendary" is the absolute best, then you run into logical contradictions.

Originally posted by IndridCold You may not like Squall, and may not want to admit he could defeat Cloud, but at the very least, you should concider him an equal.[/B]

I will consider him an equal if he is shown to be an equal. I like Squalls character better than Clouds, but I'm looking at facts. I don't like Jecht as much as I like Cloud, but I'm perfectly willing to admit that Jecht, at least FA form, would smoke Cloud in a fight one on one.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Well said. It's sad that people can become so fanatic about an game that it's to hard for them to accept that those characters who follow might be as powerful as their favorite.

I know, right? These Squall people, geez.

All joking aside, I don't think Cloud would win in a fight because I like him better, as I said, I like Squall better than I do Cloud. I'm looking at the evidence here. But you're right, a lot of people can't look past the evidence. They like their favorite character better, and so that translates into them being stronger. I've seen in numerous times on this site.

Originally posted by IndridCold
And lets presume for a moment that I agreed with you and it was just a game mechanic...I would argue the parameters of both FF7 and FF8 are almost entirely the same with the exception of the juction system vs materia system. It's still turned based, Max health is still 9,999, 255 is still the max cap for stats, and even the last bosses health are nearly the same if you have your characters capped. Other than the materia vs Junction systems the games are nearly identical in every aspect.

But it's still a game mechanic. Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie. It has absolutely no bearing on reality, as I have already shown. The numbers are a lie.

Originally posted by IndridCold
One more thing..and I don't think I'm alone here..I hardly concider Lionheart or Omnislash simply a game mechanic....They are "patented" attacks that both Squall and Cloud use....I would agree with you that it is a game mechanic if everyone could use Lionheart and everyone could use Omnislash but that is not the case. What we have here is Squall clearly having the edge when it comes to sheer power over Cloud's attacks and his patented "jenova cells." Which, mind you, all I have said up to this point clearly contradicts your arguement that Cloud would defeat Squall simply because of genetics. Even on a logical standpoint.

Oh, it's a game mechanic. One hit with that sword would end the fight.

Originally posted by IndridCold
Next order of business...The sword wound vs the icicle wound....There are clearly a differnt set of circumstances here...When Cloud was ran through by Sephiroth's sword, let me remind you that Sephiroth was holding Cloud up by the end of the sword, Cloud was not standing of his own free will....

What's your point here? He pulled himself up the sword, and then stood there while he threw Sephiroth off the cliff, so yes he was standing of his own free will, unless you think he was floating or something.

Originally posted by IndridCold
Also it's completly logical to assume that had there not been a ledge to throw Sephiroth over, Sephiroth would have killed him there on the spot....You concider Cloud tough for this, as do I, however I also concider him very lucky for having that Ace up his sleeve because had he not, it would have more than likely been game over for Cloud....

Oh, I agree. But sadly, that is not even the point. The point wasn't that Cloud defeated Sephiroth. My point would still stand even if Sephiroth reversed it and killed Cloud. The point, you see, is that Cloud had the strength necessary to retaliate at ALL after having a sword shoved through his chest, let alone that not only did he retaliate, he still had the strength to lift a man off his feat, all the while with a sword sticking through him. It's not important what happened to Sephiroth. Squall didn't, though. He took a less severe shot, and didn't have the strength to retaliate AT ALL.

Originally posted by IndridCold
The icicle attack. This is where we have a completly differnt set of circumstances. Squall was hit by the icicle, and then also fell 1 to 2 stories off the lift, which is competly differnt than what happened to Cloud. Any "normal human" would have been killed hands down which obviously seperates Squall from any variation of "normal." Let's not forget that after the fall Squall was completly surrounded by not only Seifer....but the Sorceress as well.....as well as the entire Galbadian Army. Like I said, completly differnt set of circumstances.

Everything you just said is irrelevant. I seem to be having trouble relaying the point to you. That icicle attack finished Squall. That was the end of the fight, right there. I don't care what happened AFTERWARD, that's not even important. What IS important, is how both characters reacted to their respective stab wounds.

Originally posted by IndridCold
Squall gets hit by the icicle, falls 1 to 2 stories, is surrounded by the entire galbadian army, Seifer, and to make matters worse, a god damn sorceress....gets imprisoned...is tortured..and still somehow manages to escape prison(granted his friend did help him) In the end, his situation was far worse and much longer than Cloud's was.

Again, completely missing the point here. All irrelevant information.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The 'stab argument' means nothing.
First off, because they are different situations and not 100% comparable, I could name several things about both situations to demonstrate how faulty that logic and comparison is, but it is not worth my time.

That usually translates to: "I can't respond." But in this case, don't worry about it, IndridCold already covered it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
There are versions that states that Cloud was enhanced by Mako in those moments (which by the way reinforces my stance) As we can see here, Cloud's eyes are glowing.

I would be interested to know where he got the enhancements, since they don't give them to normal soldiers. Plus, the Sephiroth cloning project didn't work on Zack because he had those enhancements, but it worked on Cloud.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
This image is taken from Wiki, check Wiki for more information.
After that Cloud passed out automatically, however we have zero evidence that Squall passed out after receiving tremendous blow in his right lung, and even if he did, the argument still means nothing.

How can you say that? It means a lot. Lets dumb down the examples. If Cloud took multiple punches to the face, and still stood, yet Squall took just one punch and passed out, do you really think that has no bearing on who would likely win in a fight?

Originally posted by TacDavey
That usually translates to: "I can't respond." But in this case, don't worry about it, IndridCold already covered it.

And that translates to: "I ingore your points".
I have posted a reply to your argument if you haven't noticed:

That wouldn't determine who would win in a fight (which you need skill to win by the way and Cloud showed nothing of it). In terms of skills Squall would beat Cloud to death at that moment, if we put Cloud at the age of 16 (an ordinary infantry man against a skilled SeeD elite mercenary, he wouldn't last minutes, hands down). Simple as that, no one cares about that argument, Sephiroth stabbed Cloud in AC and he didn't even move. That has nothing to do with fighting.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I know, right? These Squall people, geez.

All joking aside, I don't think Cloud would win in a fight because I like him better, as I said, I like Squall better than I do Cloud. I'm looking at the evidence here. But you're right, a lot of people can't look past the evidence. They like their favorite character better, and so that translates into them being stronger. I've seen in numerous times on this site.

Obviously I like Squall better than Cloud, you don't need to be a genius. I'm not here saying that Squall would win because I like him better, that's bullshit, Sephiroth is my favorite villain but I know he isn't the strongest. He can be my favorite character and he can also win this fight. If you think this is fight is because who I like better, that's your problem. What evidence? You haven't named a point in Cloud's favor besides your ridiculous 'stab argument' which shows nothing. What makes you think that Cloud is far superior? What feats he has shown? What skills? Oh yeah, his Jenova Cells = Absolute victory? You have to do better than that, I'm afraid, I've argued with a lot of people and they did better than you and sounded more convincing with their points, plus they DID HAD POINTS for Cloud. Indridcold (as I can see) is comparing both situations trying to make a clear conclusion and that's perfect even knowing how faulty that argument is.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I would be interested to know where he got the enhancements, since they don't give them to normal soldiers. Plus, the Sephiroth cloning project didn't work on Zack because he had those enhancements, but it worked on Cloud.

Have you watched the video or not? You saw Cloud's eyes glowing? Have you read the information on Wiki? You have a whole video showing you, you don't need more than that. I've added this additional information to show you because you probably didn't know about it, that's all. The stab argument still means nothing anyway.

Originally posted by TacDavey
How can you say that? It means a lot. Lets dumb down the examples. If Cloud took multiple punches to the face, and still stood, yet Squall took just one punch and passed out, do you really think that has no bearing on who would likely win in a fight?

What if Cloud can't punch Squall due of the lacking of training and skill he has? He still would win? That pretty much proves you have nothing besides this argument.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, we've been over this. The numbers that come up in a battle system are game mechanics. Just like Squall doesn't really stand there and wait for his turn to attack, his numbers he puts out mean nothing. In reality, everyone would be killed with one slash of a sword. Those are simply game mechanics and have no place in a rational debate.

Also on a side note, it is impossible to win almost any debate if you try to rationalize something that isn't real. Squall and Cloud are fake and made up. They do not exist. The only way to rationalize something that does not exist is to use any evidence that the creators of the characters have given us. You keep trying to pretend Squall and Cloud are real, "flesh in blood" characters and that is simply is not the case here. However, in their world's, evidence exists saying Squall is stronger than Cloud, and the fact that you keep trying to blow it off as a simple "mechanic" is very suspicious and eluding. The parameters of both FF7 and FF8 are nearly identical. 9,999HP, 255 stat cap, bosses health are similiar, turned based gameplay, need I really same more? Please use an arguement other than a "game mechanic" to support why Squall appears more powerful than Cloud. On paper, Squall is stronger. It is that simple, and you have No arguement for it other than trying to blow it off as a mechanic.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Legendary does not mean the absolute best. It just means elite. You can have two legendary swordsman, can't you? But if a prerequisite for being called "legendary" is the absolute best, then you run into logical contradictions.

The fact is that you don't have 'two legendary' characters in Final Fantasy VIII, just one. This Legendary title reinforces EVEN MORE my stance about Squall being the best swordsman in his world with all the rest of evidence supporting me.

Oh... And Elite >> Infantry.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh, I agree. But sadly, that is not even the point. The point wasn't that Cloud defeated Sephiroth. My point would still stand even if Sephiroth reversed it and killed Cloud. The point, you see, is that Cloud had the strength necessary to retaliate at ALL after having a sword shoved through his chest, let alone that not only did he retaliate, he still had the strength to lift a man off his feat, all the while with a sword sticking through him. It's not important what happened to Sephiroth. Squall didn't, though. He took a less severe shot, and didn't have the strength to retaliate AT ALL.