Originally posted by TacDaveyFunny that there are no other characters concidered legendary really in FF8...is that not a logical contradiction in itself? Sure is.
I'm not. Legendary does not mean the absolute best. It just means elite. You can have two legendary swordsman, can't you? But if a prerequisite for being called "legendary" is the absolute best, then you run into logical contradictions.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Squall didn't, though. He took a less severe shot, and didn't have the strength to retaliate AT ALL.
That doesn't seem a less severe shot to me. Just look all of that passing through Squall's body, that Ice Strike have even thick parts.
Pause the video at: 0:34
Cloud as an infantry man with no skills wouldn't have even defeated Seifer. I would pay a lot of money to see Cloud dying at the hands of Edea there.
Of course, it's even worse than a simple Katana attack.
Just look at the speed of that attack (0:17) and how Squall took it, a normal human in Final Fantasy VIII, would have been blown away off the place and died easily, however Squall, with a lung totally destroyed (Yeah, if that thing didn't passed through his lung then it was a nice blooper) not even passed out, he received the attack and stood, then he fell AND SURVIVED.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What evidence? You haven't named a point in Cloud's favor besides your ridiculous 'stab argument' which shows nothing.
And all the other evidence I have. Ignoring it won't make it go away, you know.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What makes you think that Cloud is far superior? What feats he has shown? What skills? Oh yeah, his Jenova Cells = Absolute victory? You have to do better than that, I'm afraid, I've argued with a lot of people and they did better than you and sounded more convincing with their points,
Now that's just childish GrieverSquall. You are attacking me instead of my arguments.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Have you watched the video or not? You saw Cloud's eyes glowing? Have you read the information on Wiki? You have a whole video showing you, you don't need more than that. I've added this additional information to show you because you probably didn't know about it, that's all.
Well, if he had the enhancements before, then I won't deny it. I was under the impression that only Soldier members get them.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What if Cloud can't punch Squall due of the lacking of training and skill he has? He still would win? That pretty much proves you have nothing besides this argument.
What? That didn't even make any sense. You completely ignored my example.
What if Cloud can't punch Squall? I never even said it was Cloud punching Squall, you completely missed the point. The point was, if both characters get stabbed, and one passes out, and the other doesn't, doesn't that carry SOME weight in a debate over who would win in a fight?
Originally posted by IndridCold
You're right we have been over this. In reality a person would indeed die with a simple slash of a sword. However, you are failing to realize that both Squall and Cloud are the product of "fantasy." They are all game mechanics and completly rational for me or you to use. If we were having a debate of say Squall(not real) vs Bruce Lee(real) then I could very well see that being irrational. But we have Squall(not real) vs Cloud(not real). Concidering that the games are very close to the same, with the exception of a few mechanics (juctioning vs materia) anything in either fantasy world can be completly relevant.
So are you saying that in the FF8 world, they really DO wait for turns to attack and they really DO have numbers that pop up over their heads when they get hurt? When Squall got hit with the icicle, why didn't we see 1,280 or some other such number pop up over his head? When Squall fought Seifer in the opening cinematic, why didn't they each stand there and wait for their turn before attacking?
The FF8 world still operates like ours, to some extent. While it is harder to debate with fantasy characters, particularly with RPG characters, the only way to do so is to eliminate the game aspect of it. We know that the characters don't actually fight like they do in the battle systems, and we know that getting stabbed does the same to them as it does to us. So we can eliminate both of those thought processes from our reasoning.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
The fact is that you don't have 'two legendary' characters in Final Fantasy VIII, just one. This Legendary title reinforces EVEN MORE my stance about Squall being the best swordsman in his world with all the rest of evidence supporting me.
You missed the point, again. My point was, isn't it POSSIBLE to have two legendary swordsman? yes it is. Weather there are two in the FF8 world or not is irrelevant, at this point. The fact is that it is POSSIBLE, and that means that the term Legendary does not automatically entail "greatest in the whole world" as one of its attributes. Therefore, giving Squall the title of "legendary" does not translate to "greatest in the whole wide world."
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Oh... And Elite >> Infantry.
That might be relevant if Cloud were still an infantry. He's so much more than that now. We are focused on his power NOW, not what he USED to be. Squall was a baby at one point. I doubt he could fight very well then. Is that a valid reason to think Cloud is better? Because infantry > baby? No, we all know what Squall can do NOW. THAT'S whats important.
Originally posted by IndridCold
And my point to you is that this is nearly inadmissible, because Squall took his hit and then fell 1 to 2 stories.
Again, irrelevant. Squall was finished with that attack. Edea won the fight, right there. The icicle defeated him.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That doesn't seem a less severe shot to me. Just look all of that passing through Squall's body, that Ice Strike have even thick parts.
Pause the video at: 0:34
Look at where the icicle hits. It's in his side. That's a less severe attack. Oh, and the icicle is a LITTLE thicker than the sword. Not enough to make THAT much of a difference. Especially considering where the two attacks hit.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud as an infantry man with no skills wouldn't have even defeated Seifer. I would pay a lot of money to see Cloud dying at the hands of Edea there.
No skills, huh? The whole FFVII game was done with no skills? He fought Sephiroth with no skills? I've already responded to the "Cloud used to be an infantry" argument. The fact that you never tire of bringing it back up again shows that you are running out of viable arguments.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Of course, it's even worse than a simple Katana attack.
Just look at the speed of that attack (0:17) and how Squall took it, a normal human in Final Fantasy VIII, would have been blown away off the place and died easily, however Squall, with a lung totally destroyed (Yeah, if that thing didn't passed through his lung then it was a nice blooper) not even passed out, he received the attack and stood, then he fell AND SURVIVED.
He didn't pass out? Except the part where he passed out.
Or maybe he just fell backwards off a float for no reason whatsoever? Maybe he was trying a back flip. Or is he prone to just spontaneously toppling over? No, He was out like a light.
Originally posted by TacDaveyYes it is Completly relevant because you have no proof that Squall passed out at the moment of the icicle attack, the only thing you have at this point is the "assumption" that he did. It is also completly relevant because, once again, Squall plummeted a good ways and didn't have the convenience or opportunity to get rid of Edea like Cloud did Sephiroth. As I do recall Cloud never fell, and only had to endure the one attack. You have a fundamental burden of proof here, you can say the game implies Squall passed out as much as you like, as you have already done in the past....it's still an assumption because we never actually see him pass out. He wakes up in prison after the fall. What Griever and I have is physical proof showing that it is just as likely that he passed out from the fall as it is the icicle attack.
Again, irrelevant. Squall was finished with that attack. Edea won the fight, right there. The icicle defeated him.
Originally posted by TacDaveyEverything you have posted here is flawed, which I am going to get into later. You keep trying to rationalize a video game and it's just getting ridiculous. Going by your rational, and trying to look at things in a more "realistic sense" I could just as easily argue this. Do you really believe Cloud can wield around a sword thats bigger than he is? If you were to take both characters out of the game, lock them into a room, and make them fight, Squall would easily win because Cloud is too scrawny to wield around that gigantic sword. I imagine your arguement is going to be something along the lines of differnt worlds or Cloud's jenova cells enable him to do it, but I'm going to address something that needs to be desperatly addressed at the end of this post.
So are you saying that in the FF8 world, they really DO wait for turns to attack and they really DO have numbers that pop up over their heads when they get hurt? When Squall got hit with the icicle, why didn't we see 1,280 or some other such number pop up over his head? When Squall fought Seifer in the opening cinematic, why didn't they each stand there and wait for their turn before attacking?The FF8 world still operates like ours, to some extent. While it is harder to debate with fantasy characters, particularly with RPG characters, the only way to do so is to eliminate the game aspect of it. We know that the characters don't actually fight like they do in the battle systems, and we know that getting stabbed does the same to them as it does to us. So we can eliminate both of those thought processes from our reasoning.
Originally posted by TacDaveyYour arguements make you susceptible to be easily attacked. You use not only flawed logic, but failed logic as well. If you cannot take the heat, then get out of the kitchen. 🙂
(Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What makes you think that Cloud is far superior? What feats he has shown? What skills? Oh yeah, his Jenova Cells = Absolute victory? You have to do better than that, I'm afraid, I've argued with a lot of people and they did better than you and sounded more convincing with their points,)Now that's just childish GrieverSquall. You are attacking me instead of my arguments.
Originally posted by TacDaveyYou are right however, this logic works both for and against you. Is it not POSSIBLE that someone or somebody in the world of FF7 could defeat Cloud? Of course someone could. You are constantly argueing that Squall used his entire team to defeat Ultimecia...well if I remember correctly Cloud at several points in FF7 used his entire team to defeat Reno and Rude. And correct me if I'm wrong here beause I could be, Reno and Rude are not enhanced with Jenova cells. It's completly feasible that in a 1 v 1 scenario, Cloud could have lost that fight. Now I don't think that's possible, but it is food for thought on what is "POSSIBLE" and what isn't.
You missed the point, again. My point was, isn't it POSSIBLE to have two legendary swordsman? yes it is. Weather there are two in the FF8 world or not is irrelevant, at this point. The fact is that it is POSSIBLE.
Originally posted by TacDaveyOK, This is the post that needs to be addressed....What I posted above is your apparent definetion of what a game mechanic is.
But it's still a game mechanic. Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie. It has absolutely no bearing on reality, as I have already shown. The numbers are a lie.
*****It seems to me that there are two arguements that you are always falling back on..1. Cloud being enhanced by Jenova cells or 2. The sword strike vs the icicle attack. The problem is this, by your definition Jenova cells are strictly a game mechanic because, in your own words, it is "Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie. It has 'absolutely no bearing on reality'." Paying special attention to the words 'absolutly no bearing on reality,' because those are YOUR words, not mine. Jenova cells obviously have no bearing on reality, therefore by your definition, makes it a "game mechanic." However, You have no problem using this "game mechanic" to merit your view point that Cloud would win. But when either Griever or myself(especially myself lol) uses a game mechanic, you give the arguement that it is "a game mechanic, and must be thrown out." By this rational, Jenova cells MUST be thrown out. And then to make matters worse, you make it out like Griever and I are the crazy ones, when really all we are trying to do is tailor arguements to your failed logic.
Even the Sword strike vs the Icicle attack can be viewed, by your definition, a game mechanic. Because, and I am sure you will agree with me here....both attacks would have, in a realistic sense, killed Squall and Cloud. Since you are so bent on rational and reality I don't see how you would disagree with that. There would be no surviving either of those attacks in a realistic sense.....Both attacks were made for the purpose of moving the story of both games forward. Both attacks happened very early in both games. In FF8 it would be Disc 1 of 4 in FF7 I believe it happened before the game technically began. So obviously it happened well before Either Squall or Cloud's prime.
Ultimately this arguement comes down to the use of game mechanics. More specifically Jenova cells vs Lionheart. Either ALL of it is ok to use or NONE of it is. You have one of two choices. You can either accept both, because by your definition they are both game mechanics, or we can discredit both. If you choose to accept both that does indeed make Cloud superhuman, but it also shows Squall's proven ability to be more powerful than Cloud. If you choose to discredit both, and argue in a realistic sense, both characters would be dead from the attacks they endured and there would be no way Cloud can win because "realistically speaking" Cloud would never be able to wield a sword bigger than he is.
The only logical way to argue this is in a "fantasy sense" and realize both videogames transcend reality, it can't be rationalized except is fantasy sense.*******
Originally posted by TacDavey
And all the other evidence I have. Ignoring it won't make it go away, you know.
I'm not ignoring anything. Let's see, Cloud being impaled and the Jenova Cells, now what other evidence? Refresh my memory, please. I brough also evidence, ignoring it or being stubborn about it won't make it go away either from the game, ya know?
Originally posted by TacDavey
Now that's just childish GrieverSquall. You are attacking me instead of my arguments.
What are you talking about? You don't make sense anymore.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, if he had the enhancements before, then I won't deny it. I was under the impression that only Soldier members get them.
He, at least, had a Mako enhancement, that's why his eyes are glowing. It is reasonable to think that was the real reason when Cloud lifted Sephiroth.
Originally posted by TacDavey
What? That didn't even make any sense. You completely ignored my example. What if Cloud can't punch Squall? I never even said it was Cloud punching Squall, you completely missed the point. The point was, if both characters get stabbed, and one passes out, and the other doesn't, doesn't that carry SOME weight in a debate over who would win in a fight?
I didn't ignored anything. How comes that don't make sense? You need skill to win a fight, I don't need to kill you to be able to defeat you, you know. Squall didn't passed out, he fell. No, that means nothing in who would win in a fight now. My point is, if both characters showed their skills, one is an Elite swordsman by default and the other an infantry man that fights with a Rifle, doesn't that carry more weight in a debate about who would win? I bet money for the Elite warrior.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You missed the point, again. My point was, isn't it POSSIBLE to have two legendary swordsman? yes it is. Weather there are two in the FF8 world or not is irrelevant, at this point. The fact is that it is POSSIBLE, and that means that the term Legendary does not automatically entail "greatest in the whole world" as one of its attributes. Therefore, giving Squall the title of "legendary" does not translate to "greatest in the whole wide world."
No, I didn't. Indeed, but the fact is that you have just ONE, go play the game. If is possible or not to have two Legendary characters is irrelevant because we have just one, look at the script, this is what we have, Squall Leonhart. Ultimecia entitled Squall as Legendary. More considering all the other facts I brought about Squall that you obviously ignored.
Originally posted by TacDavey
That might be relevant if Cloud were still an infantry. He's so much more than that now. We are focused on his power NOW, not what he USED to be. Squall was a baby at one point. I doubt he could fight very well then. Is that a valid reason to think Cloud is better? Because infantry > baby? No, we all know what Squall can do NOW. THAT'S whats important.
Well, he never made it into SOLDIER. He underperformed, simple as that, instead he was just one of those Infantry blue guys. Not really, both at the same age is a good comparison to me, one was an Infantry, the other an Elite. Yeah true, Squall is the best swordsman in his world at the same age that Cloud was a Shinra Infantry with a Rifle. Yeah, I ALREADY KNOW what Squall can do, he pretty much fought and defeated Ultimecia's minions in her castle when he had all of his abilities sealed.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Look at where the icicle hits. It's in his side. That's a less severe attack. Oh, and the icicle is a LITTLE thicker than the sword. Not enough to make THAT much of a difference. Especially considering where the two attacks hit.
Side of what? That thing pretty much passed through Squall's lung, is thicker than a Katana and the speed of that attack can kill a person and blown it away, stop joking yourself, Edea can kill a person without breaking a sweat. Squall stood and received the attack directly, then he fell and survived like nothing. If he passes out or not when he's on the ground is something you have zero proof. However, I have proof that Cloud was dying and Hojo saved him. The Katana pretty much passed through Cloud's stomach, I bet didn't even touched some of his organs.
Originally posted by TacDavey
No skills, huh? The whole FFVII game was done with no skills? He fought Sephiroth with no skills?
The FFVII game? What are you talking about? Cloud isn't even pair with Sephiroth, stop dreaming, Sephiroth's skills are beyond Cloud's.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Yes it is Completly relevant because you have no proof that Squall passed out at the moment of the icicle attack, the only thing you have at this point is the "assumption" that he did.
It's not an assumption at all. Why do you think he was FALLING BACKWARDS? You think he was perfectly fine? Was that his exit plan the whole time? Hey, if things go sour I'll back flip off a float? Let's take a step back from the ridiculous please. He passed out.
Originally posted by IndridCold
It is also completly relevant because, once again, Squall plummeted a good ways and didn't have the convenience or opportunity to get rid of Edea like Cloud did Sephiroth.
He wasn't shot back off the float, that icicle attack had him standing where he was. It was after it hit, that he fell backwards. If he had wanted to retaliate in any way, he could have, but instead, he fell back and passed out. I CANNOT believe you are denying this.
Originally posted by IndridCold
As I do recall Cloud never fell, and only had to endure the one attack.
How many attacks did Squall endure? Oh, right. Just the one.
Originally posted by IndridCold
You have a fundamental burden of proof here, you can say the game implies Squall passed out as much as you like, as you have already done in the past....it's still an assumption because we never actually see him pass out.
I want to here your version of what he did then. What was going through Squall's not passed out mind when he decided he would fall backwards off a float for no apparent reason. Look up the scene.
Originally posted by IndridCold
He wakes up in prison after the fall. What Griever and I have is physical proof showing that it is just as likely that he passed out from the fall as it is the icicle attack.
No you don't. You are clinging to that because I have more than adequately destroyed your argument, as seen above.
Originally posted by IndridCold
You keep trying to rationalize a video game and it's just getting ridiculous. Going by your rational, and trying to look at things in a more "realistic sense" I could just as easily argue this. Do you really believe Cloud can wield around a sword thats bigger than he is?
Sure, if he had the strength amplification of the genetically enhanced soldiers. Yeah, that's possible. You have to try and rationalize the game, or you can't debate ANYTHING.
Originally posted by IndridCold
If you were to take both characters out of the game, lock them into a room, and make them fight, Squall would easily win because Cloud is too scrawny to wield around that gigantic sword.
He's a super human.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Your arguements make you susceptible to be easily attacked. You use not only flawed logic, but failed logic as well.
Flawed logic? AND Failed logic? At the same time? You don't say! I didn't even know there was a difference between the two!
You also say that my argument works for and against me. That if it is POSSIBLE for there to be someone stronger than Squall, the same applies to Cloud. And I admit that. I'm not making the claim that Cloud is the strongest in the FF7 universe. I'm not even saying Squall ISN'T the strongest in the FF8 universe. I'm saying, you can't know that from the evidence you have provided. You provide a whole bunch of evidence to show that Squall wields a sword well, and you jump from that to "he's the greatest in the entire world." When we question that, you resort to an "argument from ignorance". It's a falacy that states that simply because there is no evidence of something it thus doesn't exist. You claim that Squall is the best because FF8 doesn't mention anyone who is better. Therefore, since there is no mention of that person, it thus follows that he does not exist. That's fallacious, I'm afraid.
Originally posted by IndridCold
You are constantly argueing that Squall used his entire team to defeat Ultimecia...well if I remember correctly Cloud at several points in FF7 used his entire team to defeat Reno and Rude.
That would be a good point, if Cloud didn't show himself to be superior to them in AC.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Paying special attention to the words 'absolutly no bearing on reality,' because those are YOUR words, not mine. Jenova cells obviously have no bearing on reality,
WHAT?! Jenova cells have no bearing on reality? What are you talking about! They are a part of the story line! They are as real as Cloud or Tifa!
Originally posted by IndridCold
Even the Sword strike vs the Icicle attack can be viewed, by your definition, a game mechanic. Because, and I am sure you will agree with me here....both attacks would have, in a realistic sense, killed Squall and Cloud. Since you are so bent on rational and reality I don't see how you would disagree with that. There would be no surviving either of those attacks in a realistic sense.....Both attacks were made for the purpose of moving the story of both games forward. Both attacks happened very early in both games. In FF8 it would be Disc 1 of 4 in FF7 I believe it happened before the game technically began. So obviously it happened well before Either Squall or Cloud's prime.
Now you are just redefining game mechanics. Those happened in the story line, not the battle system. Both of those could have happened in a movie, thus they are not just a part of the "game". Stop making things up.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Ultimately this arguement comes down to the use of game mechanics. More specifically Jenova cells vs Lionheart. Either ALL of it is ok to use or NONE of it is. You have one of two choices. You can either accept both, because by your definition they are both game mechanics,
No, only one of them is.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
He, at least, had a Mako enhancement, that's why his eyes are glowing. It is reasonable to think that was the real reason when Cloud lifted Sephiroth.
I don't know why his eyes were glowing there, but I thought they only gave those enhancements to soldiers. Cloud wasn't a soldier, so he shouldn't have had them. Still, if he had them, then he had them. It still doesn't combat my argument.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I didn't ignored anything. How comes that don't make sense? You need skill to win a fight, I don't need to kill you to be able to defeat you, you know. Squall didn't passed out, he fell.
Why did he fall? Ask yourself that.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, that means nothing in who would win in a fight now. My point is, if both characters showed their skills, one is an Elite swordsman by default and the other an infantry man that fights with a Rifle, doesn't that carry more weight in a debate about who would win? I bet money for the Elite warrior.
Why do you INSIST on bringing this back up? Cloud isn't an infantry man. He USED to be one, but he's well past that now. Didn't we have this discussion about 459083476 times already? Bringing it up repeatedly will NOT make it any more logical.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, I didn't. Indeed, but the fact is that you have just ONE, go play the game. If is possible or not to have two Legendary characters is irrelevant because we have just one, look at the script, this is what we have, Squall Leonhart. Ultimecia entitled Squall as Legendary. More considering all the other facts I brought about Squall that you obviously ignored.
No, being able to have two legendaries is the whole point. Here's your argument:
"Squall is the greatest swordman in FF8 because he is legendary."
And my response is:
"Legendary doesn't mean best in the world because it is possible to have two legendary swordsman."
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Side of what? That thing pretty much passed through Squall's lung,
You can live with one lung, and you can function pretty normally with one lung too.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't know why his eyes were glowing there, but I thought they only gave those enhancements to soldiers. Cloud wasn't a soldier, so he shouldn't have had them. Still, if he had them, then he had them. It still doesn't combat my argument.
You don't know why Cloud's eyes are glowing? You don't even think about it for a second? You don't wonder why? I'm not talking about Jenova Cells here, I'm talking about Mako poisoning. I'm not saying he had Mako from before either, that's impossible to know, It is obvious he had a energy boost in THAT MOMENT to be able to perform such thing, that wasn't his own strength, that's what I meant. Your argument doesn't need to be combated, it is already a faulty one.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Why did he fall? Ask yourself that.
Why Squall fell from that place? Is easy to figure out actually. Having a hard piece of Ice passing through your bones and destroying one of your lungs, you lose stability, Cloud would have died here for example. I repeat, you may be right if he passed out when he was already on the ground, but you can be wrong too, at that point is irrelevant anyway to think about it.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Why do you INSIST on bringing this back up? Cloud isn't an infantry man. He USED to be one, but he's well past that now. Didn't we have this discussion about 459083476 times already? Bringing it up repeatedly will NOT make it any more logical.
But you need SKILL to win a fight, that's a logical fact. How come you can't accept it? It doesn't matter if you can take a punch better than me, after all without skills you won't defeat me. (This applies to your stab argument actually, not at how they are now)
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, being able to have two legendaries is the whole point. Here's your argument:"Squall is the greatest swordman in FF8 because he is legendary."
And my response is:
"Legendary doesn't mean best in the world because it is possible to have two legendary swordsman."
Nice, and what about my other facts supporting Squall? You forgot about them all? Stop arguing a logical reasoning here. Legendary is ANOTHER fact that support my stance for Squall being the best swordsman in his world. Ask Ultimecia about why she entitled him Legendary. You're right it is possible to have two Legendary swordsman, the fact is that we have just one and you'll have to deal with it. You don't gain the title of Legendary just for doing nothing, if you ask me.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You can live with one lung, and you can function pretty normally with one lung too.
Exactly, that's why Squall lived without a lung and he didn't die. Depends, many people have died with a simple bullet passing through their lung. And seeing the fact that Squall had STILL that thing passing through his body AND fell with it to the ground... Hell, I want to see someone enduring that. I told you, a normal person would have blown away with that attack, he stood there and endured it. But damn, Edea can kill a person without breaking a sweat, considering that Ultimecia was manipulating her. But an attack that works once, doesn't work twice.
Originally posted by TacDaveyLet me answer your questions individually from both perspectives.
It's not an assumption at all. Why do you think he was FALLING BACKWARDS? You think he was perfectly fine? Was that his exit plan the whole time? Hey, if things go sour I'll back flip off a float? Let's take a step back from the ridiculous please. He passed out.
Icicle attack on Squall:
Why do you think he was FALLING BACKWARDS? He got impaled by a big piece of ice.
You think he was perfectly fine? Obviously not.
Hey, if things go sour I'll back flip off a float? He didn't backflip. He got hit by a really big piece of ice and his body acted autonomously. It's what happens when something that big happens to go through our bodies.
Sword attack on Cloud:
Why do you think he was FALLING BACKWARDS? He couldn't. The sword was through him and Sephiroth was still holding onto it. Even if he did fall backwards there would have been nothing for him to fall off of except maybe the rails behind him.
You think he was perfectly fine? Obviously not.
Hey, if things go sour I'll back flip off a float? He wasn't on a float. However now that I think about it, had Cloud fallen over the rail behind him, do you think things would have turned out differnt? Obviously, then you might have an arguement because the circumstances would have been more on par.
Now that I have explained it to you that way, do you understand the circumstances are differnt?
Originally posted by TacDaveyCloud didn't actively retaliate himself, in fact it took him several moments to retaliate. Squall got hit and fell backwards, because there was no place to land except 50 feet down, he didn't have a chance to retaliate. He was hit and fell a great distance. Cloud was hit, happened to be given a few moments and had the chance to retaliate unlike Squall did. I CANNOT believe you are denying this.
He wasn't shot back off the float, that icicle attack had him standing where he was. It was after it hit, that he fell backwards. If he had wanted to retaliate in any way, he could have, but instead, he fell back and passed out. I CANNOT believe you are denying this.
Originally posted by TacDaveyAnd the fall. And if I do recall correctly, Squall did have to endure fights with both Seifer and the Sorceress directly before being hit by the ice. Seeing that we are argueing this on "rationality" and your such a "rational" person, even you would understand that exhaustion may have come into play. And(correct me if I'm wrong here)I don't believe Cloud had to fight anything before he was struck by Sephiroth, he simply just had to show up.
How many attacks did Squall endure? Oh, right. Just the one.
Originally posted by TacDaveyOk, I just looked it up. Nope, still havent changed my mind.
I want to here your version of what he did then. What was going through Squall's not passed out mind when he decided he would fall backwards off a float for no apparent reason. Look up the scene.
Originally posted by TacDaveyNo you havent. Even if you did,(which you havent), it's still all circumstantial. This is your thought line. "OH wow Cloud took this attack better than Squall took that attack. Obviously Cloud would win in a fight." Keep thinking that killer. I guess I can't blame you though. This is the only front you can argue on, in an evidence sense, without being utterly destroyed.
No you don't. You are clinging to that because I have more than adequately destroyed your argument, as seen above.
Originally posted by TacDaveyYour definition of a game mechanic...these are YOUR words. "But it's still a game mechanic. Something placed into the game for the sole reason to make it a game, and not a movie. It has absolutely no bearing on reality, as I have already shown. The numbers are a lie." By that definition, Jenova Cells ARE A GAME MECHANIC. Because IT has NO bearing on reality....AT ALL. If your going to use a game mechanic to argue Your points, you better be ready for another game mechanic arguement to hit you in the face. Either ALL of it is ok to use, or NONE of it is.
He's a super human.
Originally posted by TacDaveyTac, me and you are going to have a fundamental disagreement on how this debate should be handled. We will literally argue forever lol You are trying to redefine real...The true definition of real can probably be decribed as •being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence•.....Cloud and Squall DO NOT exist. Simple as that. Therefore the only arguements we can base the two off of is in the virtual world. In the virtual world, storyline may indeed give Cloud the edge with his Jenova cells, but you fail to take into account what a GF does for a SeeD...It literally amplifies their attributes. I equip a GF, I can literally amplify any part of the SeeD I want to. Storyline wise, 8 SeeD's were sent to Dollet to stop the galbadians from entering the city. 8 SeeD's vs an entire army. I take that back, 8 SeeD initiate's were sent....They wernt even SeeDs at that point yet Cid felt perfectly comfortable sending them. 8 SeeD initiates vs an entire army. That's worthy of any Soldier starting off.
WHAT?! Jenova cells have no bearing on reality? What are you talking about! They are a part of the story line! They are as real as Cloud or Tifa!
In a the combat enviroment Squall easily wins, yet you waive it off as simple mechanics...yet by your definition, Jenova cells would also fall into that category.
Just to add something to your argument, Indridcold.
Squall and his friends doesn't really rely on their GFs at 100% to win a fight, a good example is when they defeated all of Ultimecia's minions at her castle having all of their abilities (GFs, Para-Magic) sealed. Still, they broke through and recovered them, just 6 teenagers. Imagine with GFs enhancing them (taking away Irvine and Rinoa which both don't even use GFs). I can easily say: SeeD > SOLDIER.
Originally posted by TacDavey
You provide a whole bunch of evidence to show that Squall wields a sword well, and you jump from that to "he's the greatest in the entire world." When we question that, you resort to an "argument from ignorance". It's a falacy that states that simply because there is no evidence of something it thus doesn't exist. You claim that Squall is the best because FF8 doesn't mention anyone who is better. Therefore, since there is no mention of that person, it thus follows that he does not exist. That's fallacious, I'm afraid.
(Sorry for the double post)
The one that made the claim about Squall being the best in his world is me, not him. I have numerous facts and evidences from the game itself AND story-line supporting me and you can't take them away, I'm afraid. He just brought the Legendary thing which reinforces me EVEN MORE. That's not fallacy, that's a logical reasoning that made me think that Squall is the best swordsman in his world. I never said that because Final Fantasy VIII doesn't mention someone who is better than Squall doesn't exist, thus if they didn't mention it or AT LEAST made a reference, that means IT DOESN'T EXIST, not after seeing what Squall achieved. But looking at everything I have in my side, that's not likely, plus if that person is a better swordsman then illogical how that imaginary person didn't joined Squall, wasn't introduced or the simply fact that Ultimecia didn't take him instead of Seifer. Illogical to pretend that someone as far as the story goes could be a better swordsman/fighter when I even named every organizations of fighters in the world (which Balamb Garden trains the bests of the bests), illogical to think that person didn't even cared in joining a Garden, illogical to think that the planet is giant when we see every part of it, I suppose that imaginary swordsman lives in an imaginary small town and he's stronger than Squall? Is just ridiculous. Your reasoning and refutation is simply faulty and doesn't make sense. Squall takes this, get over it. Oh and by saying 'Squall just wields a sword well' to making it sound stupid won't help you at all.
Originally posted by GrieverSquallAbsolutly, and thank you for bringing that to my attention. Tac will probably use the same arguement to that, that he uses against my Lionheart arguement though. It's a mechanic in the fight, and can't be used...
Just to add something to your argument, Indridcold.
Squall and his friends doesn't really rely on their GFs at 100% to win a fight, a good example is when they defeated all of Ultimecia's minions at her castle having all of their abilities (GFs, Para-Magic) sealed. Still, they broke through and recovered them, just 6 teenagers. Imagine with GFs enhancing them (taking away Irvine and Rinoa which both don't even use GFs). I can easily say: SeeD > SOLDIER.