Cloud vs Squall

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Genesis isn't on par with Pre-Nib Sephiroth.

If you need proof:

A. Supernova.
B. Sephiroth is the perfect melding of Jenova and Human. (Genesis degrades, Sephiroth doesn't).

I am not sure what you are referring to in your other posts about it beings stated, would you care to elaborate?

Back on topic: Cloud wins due to retardation.

"A SOLDIER 1st Class who possesses combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth's"

http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/ff7cc/genesis.php

Safer Sephiroth uses Supernova.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I own the movie, but if you want to put the vid, do it. He's grabbing the Masamune and shaking his legs... Those are signs of him trying something, not waiting for Sephiroth to kill him. Unless you think Cloud is retard.

Plot point = PIS. Cloud, you and I could have break through that guy, not as fast as Squall would though.

Actually, I didn't said anything about her at all, you brought her up. I just say a group of 9 people with Materia, Summons and weaponry blow down giant monsters. But we can't determine anything from Tifa in the game... since she has zero feats.

That room is in another floor. Zell's floor was full of G-Soldiers and prison guards, Squall had to beat some asses before saving Zell (since he had to go to Zell's floor). Super-speed indeed, considering he went all by himself and without breaking a sweat. Deal with it.

It does proves everything I need, you're just in denial, or, unless you show me Cloud being as fast as Squall. Oh, then that proves Cloud scene in the Reactor was nothing more than PIS. 🙂

... Is stated. Sephiroth smoked Zack with hardly lifting a finger? That's Cloud, not Zack. I said Genesis was on par with Pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth. Do you have problems reading my posts...? 🤨

1. He grabbed the sword cuz it was sticking through him. That's a logical response to blade going through your body. That doesn't mean he was trying to pull himself up the blade. The only movement his legs made in that scene was swinging a little when Sephiroth lifted him up. He isn't struggling AT ALL. Notice: Struggling involves squirming and kicking legs. He isn't doing either.

2. Cloud could do it 400 times faster than Squall. See how that works? It isn't enough to just say things like that GreiverSquall, you know that. We've been over than many many times in this debate and others. Stop.

3. We know that she came along and fought along side everyone else.

4. No, GreiverSquall. Squall didn't necessarily have to fight anyone to get there. They were all attacking Zell, not Squall, and Squall could have easily avoided them. You need to drop this little game and accept that that scene doesn't show Squall going any faster than a regular human would jump. From the moment he enters the screen, he is going just as fast as you or me would be going had we made a similar jump. Since him entering the screen is all we have to go on in terms of Squall. Everything else you are suggesting is not backed up by anything. You are simply drawing your own conclusions about something that we never see happen. You cannot make any claims about what happened off screen because there is no record or evidence of what happened before Squall jumped into the shot.

5. What? How? How does that show anything about the reactor? If I have one of my characters perform action A to get out of, say, a prison cell. If that character were to get captured and put in a cell again at some point, I wouldn't have him perform action A to get out again. Because that's repetitious and unexciting. That doesn't mean that my character CAN'T perform action A, though. Not at all.

6. I didn't notice a difference in Sephiroths. He's the same Sephiroth as he always was. When and how did he somehow magically get stronger? He went crazy, but that doesn't affect his strength at all.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
As I said before no one has said it is heavy, it just looks heavy, there is an actual recreation of the sword made of steel and it only weighs 16 lbs.

The "heavy sword" theory would hold up if a grunt wasn't capable of jumping and slashing with it or if anyone said it was heavy.

My proof: A weak grunt was capable of wielding the sword with no problems including jumping with it and an actual rendition of the sword made as accurate as possible was made, weighing in at 16 lbs and the AC version weighing in at 17lbs also complete with the split swords (I'm buying it)

Your proof: It looks heavy and it is made of metal that can't possibly be light.

I never said no one would be able to LIFT it. I said it takes strength to be able to WIELD it like Cloud does. Cloud uses that thing like you or I would use a small katana. He can even swing it with one hand. 16 or 17 pounds is a really heavy sword.

Originally posted by TacDavey
1. He grabbed the sword cuz it was sticking through him. That's a logical response to blade going through your body. That doesn't mean he was trying to pull himself up the blade. The only movement his legs made in that scene was swinging a little when Sephiroth lifted him up. He isn't struggling AT ALL. Notice: Struggling involves squirming and kicking legs. He isn't doing either.

2. Cloud could do it 400 times faster than Squall. See how that works? It isn't enough to just say things like that GreiverSquall, you know that. We've been over than many many times in this debate and others. Stop.

3. We know that she came along and fought along side everyone else.

Obviously is a response to the attack, obviously Cloud tried to get off the attack, obviously Cloud isn't some idiot who was actually waiting for Sephiroth to finishing him off and then blow the planet, right? 'Cause that doesn't make any sense. The 'he was just holding there' claim makes absolutely no sense. He was shaking his legs though.

That could be true if you actually can prove Cloud can do it more fast, or, at least as fast as Squall, THAT IS how things usually works, ya know? Why we should prove Squall is as strong as Cloud then? Never mind you provided nothing to prove Cloud is stronger.

Indeed, saying that is one thing, but saying she kills big monsters with her fists is something that needs to be proved with feats. She has zero. She isn't Goku, ya know?

Originally posted by TacDavey
5. What? How? How does that show anything about the reactor? If I have one of my characters perform action A to get out of, say, a prison cell. If that character were to get captured and put in a cell again at some point, I wouldn't have him perform action A to get out again. Because that's repetitious and unexciting. That doesn't mean that my character CAN'T perform action A, though. Not at all.

6. I didn't notice a difference in Sephiroths. He's the same Sephiroth as he always was. When and how did he somehow magically get stronger? He went crazy, but that doesn't affect his strength at all.

That's PIS, plot point, etc. PIS. Just as Cloud not punching a guy in the face, etc.

You know is stated, right? So starting from that point you shouldn't really complain.
Yes, Sephiroth got stronger, just as Zack when he went from 2nd Class SOLDIER to 1st Class and defeated Genesis. Really simple.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, GreiverSquall. Squall didn't necessarily have to fight anyone to get there. They were all attacking Zell, not Squall, and Squall could have easily avoided them. You need to drop this little game and accept that that scene doesn't show Squall going any faster than a regular human would jump. From the moment he enters the screen, he is going just as fast as you or me would be going had we made a similar jump. Since him entering the screen is all we have to go on in terms of Squall. Everything else you are suggesting is not backed up by anything. You are simply drawing your own conclusions about something that we never see happen. You cannot make any claims about what happened off screen because there is no record or evidence of what happened before Squall jumped into the shot.

You said Squall was in Zell's floor, that's false, he is in another floor/room and about to come to the rescue after hearing the shots, he knew Zell was in trouble. When Zell is escaping, Squall isn't even on screen, he wasn't there yet. How many seconds passed between the scene of Zell running and the scene when he is being knocked down? 1 or 2, since when the screen goes black is just the transition from one scene to another, and that obviously doesn't count. It is logical and safe to claim Squall showed up and jumped in time, HE WASN'T THERE BEFORE THOSE SECONDS, as I said, 1 second later and Zell would have been shot. Squall showed in time, otherwise Zell is shot. It's basic logical reasoning. Squall's jump was by far super-speed AND strength. As for your 'unspecified location' claim, Squall's is clearly in a decline position, usually when you're in decline you're coming from another side, so the jump has taken place in the entire room, it was a very long jump, notice how he's also from above the prison's center and the guard's head as well. There's no escape, and even if Squall would have been there the whole time, even if that would have been true, still his jump was incredibly fast and it does not takes away the rest of the evidence. If you want to nullify Squall's feat, you should provide evidence on Cloud's side, rather than downplaying Squall's. You have been proved wrong. Now prove Cloud is as fast as Squall, or concede. I'm not saying Cloud is slow, but there's nothing suggesting he can be as fast as Squall if you don't provide anything. The stubbornness isn't making you any favors.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I never said no one would be able to LIFT it. I said it takes strength to be able to WIELD it like Cloud does. Cloud uses that thing like you or I would use a small katana. He can even swing it with one hand. 16 or 17 pounds is a really heavy sword.

I never said that you did. Just disregarding the fact that he can handle it quite well in his worthless state as a grunt and you were assuming that it was really heavy as if it had some super dense metal, that you can't deny cause I can pull up past proof, not that you said the dense metal part specifically though.

16-17lbs is heavy, FOR A SWORD.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
"A SOLDIER 1st Class who possesses combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth's"

http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/ff7cc/genesis.php

Safer Sephiroth uses Supernova.

You haven't listened to anything I have ever said.

Pre-Nib Seph has Supernova. Genesis has nothing to equal, therefore isn't on par.

In durability terms Genesis is much lower. Degrading.

You should have specified in "Combat Abilities". Which still doesn't make him on par in attributes.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Obviously is a response to the attack, obviously Cloud tried to get off the attack, obviously Cloud isn't some idiot who was actually waiting for Sephiroth to finishing him off and then blow the planet, right? 'Cause that doesn't make any sense. The 'he was just holding there' claim makes absolutely no sense. He was shaking his legs though.

That could be true if you actually can prove Cloud can do it more fast, or, at least as fast as Squall, THAT IS how things usually works, ya know? Why we should prove Squall is as strong as Cloud then? Never mind you provided nothing to prove Cloud is stronger.

Indeed, saying that is one thing, but saying she kills big monsters with her fists is something that needs to be proved with feats. She has zero. She isn't Goku, ya know?

That's PIS, plot point, etc. PIS. Just as Cloud not punching a guy in the face, etc.

You know is stated, right? So starting from that point you shouldn't really complain.
Yes, Sephiroth got stronger, just as Zack when he went from 2nd Class SOLDIER to 1st Class and defeated Genesis. Really simple.

You said Squall was in Zell's floor, that's false, he is in another floor/room and about to come to the rescue after hearing the shots, he knew Zell was in trouble. When Zell is escaping, Squall isn't even on screen, he wasn't there yet. How many seconds passed between the scene of Zell running and the scene when he is being knocked down? 1 or 2, since when the screen goes black is just the transition from one scene to another, and that obviously doesn't count. It is logical and safe to claim Squall showed up and jumped in time, HE WASN'T THERE BEFORE THOSE SECONDS, as I said, 1 second later and Zell would have been shot. Squall showed in time, otherwise Zell is shot. It's basic logical reasoning. Squall's jump was by far super-speed AND strength. As for your 'unspecified location' claim, Squall's is clearly in a decline position, usually when you're in decline you're coming from another side, so the jump has taken place in the entire room, it was a very long jump, notice how he's also from above the prison's center and the guard's head as well. There's no escape, and even if Squall would have been there the whole time, even if that would have been true, still his jump was incredibly fast and it does not takes away the rest of the evidence. If you want to nullify Squall's feat, you should provide evidence on Cloud's side, rather than downplaying Squall's. You have been proved wrong. Now prove Cloud is as fast as Squall, or concede. I'm not saying Cloud is slow, but there's nothing suggesting he can be as fast as Squall if you don't provide anything. The stubbornness isn't making you any favors.

1. It's not that he was going to let Sephiroth finish him off, he was simply waiting for an opportunity to do something. There wasn't much he could do it that situation. He couldn't pull what he did in the reactor for the reasons I have discussed a NUMBER of times, so what was he suppose to do? Sephiroth is sitting right there, watching him. You really think he's just going to watch as Cloud pulls himself off the blade and continues the fight? Of course not! Do you think Cloud doesn't know that? He didn't have any viable options at the moment.

2. Exactly! I have to be able to back up what I say, right? So when you replied with "Squall could do it faster than Cloud because Squall is way faster than Cloud" and left it at that. You were pretty much doing exactly what I just did, weren't you? That's my point.

3. She fights with her fists canonly. She doesn't use materia canonly. Like I said. All we know is she fights with her fists and has killed big monsters. It's logical to assume she has done so with her fists.

4. Okay, but remember. That doesn't mean that the character in my example COULDN'T perform option A. Only that he DIDN'T. He still could have had he wanted to.

5. When did Sephiroth get stronger? At what point? And if Sephiroth was weaker when Genesis was on par with him, how do we know this weaker Sephiroth was stronger than the holding back Sephiroth that Cloud fought?

6. Okay, I know Squall wasn't there the WHOLE time. But even if we wait until the scene changes, that still gives Squall enough time to perform a perfectly normal speed jump. A jump that doesn't require super speed. AND since when we see him come on screen in the clip he isn't moving any faster than a normal person, it is NOT logical to assume there was super speed involved at any point. It's not like he was going super speed and then stopped going super speed as soon as he entered the shot, GreiverSquall. I'm not being stubborn. You have given me NO good reason to think Squall was going any faster than you or I could jump.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
I never said that you did. Just disregarding the fact that he can handle it quite well in his worthless state as a grunt and you were assuming that it was really heavy as if it had some super dense metal, that you can't deny cause I can pull up past proof, not that you said the dense metal part specifically though.

16-17lbs is heavy, FOR A SWORD.

He can lift it as a grunt. I don't see him wielding it like he does through the rest of the game.

Exactly. That would be completely unwieldy. Or at least it wouldn't be able to be wielded like Cloud can, with one hand, as if it weighed 2-3 pounds.

Originally posted by TacDavey
1. It's not that he was going to let Sephiroth finish him off, he was simply waiting for an opportunity to do something. There wasn't much he could do it that situation. He couldn't pull what he did in the reactor for the reasons I have discussed a NUMBER of times, so what was he suppose to do? Sephiroth is sitting right there, watching him. You really think he's just going to watch as Cloud pulls himself off the blade and continues the fight? Of course not! Do you think Cloud doesn't know that? He didn't have any viable options at the moment.

2. Exactly! I have to be able to back up what I say, right? So when you replied with "Squall could do it faster than Cloud because Squall is way faster than Cloud" and left it at that. You were pretty much doing exactly what I just did, weren't you? That's my point.

3. She fights with her fists canonly. She doesn't use materia canonly. Like I said. All we know is she fights with her fists and has killed big monsters. It's logical to assume she has done so with her fists.

Waiting for an opportunity? He had plenty of time to do something (which he did). I wouldn't waste any second if I know the guy who is about to kill me is going to destroy the planet as well, that's totally retarded. Any thing you do in a situation like that is always better then let someone to end life in the planet. 🙂

I never said that. I said that you must prove if Cloud is as fast as Squall. Show me one feat and I concede.

Materia is canon. The characters doesn't uses Materia in AC because that drains the Planet's life, so they've decided to not do it anymore. Stated. As I said, a group of 9 people with Summons, Materia and weaponry blow down the giant monsters. But if you want to claim Tifa can do it by herself and with her hands, fine, show me feats of her own strength... ermm

Originally posted by TacDavey
4. Okay, but remember. That doesn't mean that the character in my example COULDN'T perform option A. Only that he DIDN'T. He still could have had he wanted to.

5. When did Sephiroth get stronger? At what point? And if Sephiroth was weaker when Genesis was on par with him, how do we know this weaker Sephiroth was stronger than the holding back Sephiroth that Cloud fought?

6. Okay, I know Squall wasn't there the WHOLE time. But even if we wait until the scene changes, that still gives Squall enough time to perform a perfectly normal speed jump. A jump that doesn't require super speed. AND since when we see him come on screen in the clip he isn't moving any faster than a normal person, it is NOT logical to assume there was super speed involved at any point. It's not like he was going super speed and then stopped going super speed as soon as he entered the shot, GreiverSquall. I'm not being stubborn. You have given me NO good reason to think Squall was going any faster than you or I could jump.

If option A is just a PIS boost, then I am quite positive the same character wouldn't perform the same a second time, because he woulnd't be able to, not because he didn't.

I don't have much knowledge on the CC time-line, but I looked it up in the Ultimania. When Zack went to 2nd Class to 1st Class in SOLDIER, 2 years have passed. Remember, Genesis was on par with Pre-Nib Sephiroth, 2 years before the Reactor incident, and Genesis already left SOLDIER with a diseased state.

When the scene changes those are just 1 or 2 seconds... And Squall wasn't there before... therefore he showed up in time. Ok, try jumping several meters long in a room in about 1 second without putting any sort of efforts. I wonder why the guards and soldiers didn't crossed the room just as Squall to block Zell's way, if that is 'supposedly' a normal jump I could perform. Stop being ridiculous. Prove Cloud is as fast or concede.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Waiting for an opportunity? He had plenty of time to do something (which he did). I wouldn't waste any second if I know the guy who is about to kill me is going to destroy the planet as well, that's totally retarded. Any thing you do in a situation like that is always better then let someone to end life in the planet. 🙂

I never said that. I said that you must prove if Cloud is as fast as Squall. Show me one feat and I concede.

Materia is canon. The characters doesn't uses Materia in AC because that drains the Planet's life, so they've decided to not do it anymore. Stated. As I said, a group of 9 people with Summons, Materia and weaponry blow down the giant monsters. But if you want to claim Tifa can do it by herself and with her hands, fine, show me feats of her own strength... ermm

If option A is just a PIS boost, then I am quite positive the same character wouldn't perform the same a second time, because he woulnd't be able to, not because he didn't.

I don't have much knowledge on the CC time-line, but I looked it up in the Ultimania. When Zack went to 2nd Class to 1st Class in SOLDIER, 2 years have passed. Remember, Genesis was on par with Pre-Nib Sephiroth, 2 years before the Reactor incident, and Genesis already left SOLDIER with a diseased state.

When the scene changes those are just 1 or 2 seconds... And Squall wasn't there before... therefore he showed up in time. Ok, try jumping several meters long in a room in about 1 second without putting any sort of efforts. I wonder why the guards and soldiers didn't crossed the room just as Squall to block Zell's way, if that is 'supposedly' a normal jump I could perform. Stop being ridiculous. Prove Cloud is as fast or concede.

1. He couldn't do anything! Look, you said Cloud didn't pull himself up the blade and throw Sephiroth off a cliff because it isn't in his ability to do that, and that isn't true. He COULD have done it, but didn't for the reasons I have been supplying and will not repeat again.

2. "Cloud, you and I could have break through that guy, not as fast as Squall would though."

Those are your exact words, GreiverSquall. Copy and Pasted from one of your earlier posts. You just said Squall could break through that guy faster than Cloud, and then neglected to offer any support for that statement.

3. But who uses materia is NOT. Like I said, Tifa helps kill big monsters. Tifa fights with her fists. We know these things for certain. We do NOT have any canon evidence that Tifa ever used any materia, because, again, it was 100% up to the player to decide that.

4. PIS boost? Stop being ridiculous. If a person performs an action, that person is able to perform said action. End of story. If they don't do it later, that doesn't mean they can't, it just means they don't.

5. So Genesis didn't get any stronger in that time? Besides, even pre-Nib Sephiroth whips the floor with Zack anyway. And there is still the second part of my point to consider.

6. 1 second? Zell gets hit, then the guards says "time to die" or something, and then stands there for a little bit before doing anything. All of this is taking longer than 1 second.

Furthermore. When you jump, how long do you stay in the air? A normal jump that you or I do takes less than a second just by itself.

Originally posted by TacDavey
1. He couldn't do anything! Look, you said Cloud didn't pull himself up the blade and throw Sephiroth off a cliff because it isn't in his ability to do that, and that isn't true. He COULD have done it, but didn't for the reasons I have been supplying and will not repeat again.

2. "Cloud, you and I could have break through that guy, not as fast as Squall would though."

Those are your exact words, GreiverSquall. Copy and Pasted from one of your earlier posts. You just said Squall could break through that guy faster than Cloud, and then neglected to offer any support for that statement.

3. But who uses materia is NOT. Like I said, Tifa helps kill big monsters. Tifa fights with her fists. We know these things for certain. We do NOT have any canon evidence that Tifa ever used any materia, because, again, it was 100% up to the player to decide that.

You said he didn't do anything because Sephiroth would have retaliated, if that was more important than letting the planet being crushed, I have to think Cloud is retarded. Don't tell me Cloud thought he had a chance against him anyway by 'holding there', cuz I will laugh even more at you.

Indeed. When Cloud could do what Squall does in about a second, give me a call.

Wrong, Yuffie steals THEIR Materia in FFVII, what does that means? That THEY uses Materia. Why THEY didn't used them in AC? Because THEY didn't wanted to drain the Planet's life ANYMORE, which also means THEY HAVE used them BEFORE. Are you going to argue against canon? Tifa may help, just as any party member does, that still says NOTHING about HER INDIVIDUALLY. <--- Big text for you to grasp before reapeating yourself like you did in the course of the entire thread.

Originally posted by TacDavey
4. PIS boost? Stop being ridiculous. If a person performs an action, that person is able to perform said action. End of story. If they don't do it later, that doesn't mean they can't, it just means they don't.

5. So Genesis didn't get any stronger in that time? Besides, even pre-Nib Sephiroth whips the floor with Zack anyway. And there is still the second part of my point to consider.

6. 1 second? Zell gets hit, then the guards says "time to die" or something, and then stands there for a little bit before doing anything. All of this is taking longer than 1 second.

Furthermore. When you jump, how long do you stay in the air? A normal jump that you or I do takes less than a second just by itself.

Actually, you need to stop being ridiculous. Cloud was able to perform THAT action for the reasons SpadeKing I have posted like hundred of times in this thread, it isn't EXACTLY the same situation either, for the same reasons we have posted. Cloud hadn't any kind of PIS boost in AC, except Zack's PIS boost, and if he can't do it without his 'hometown influence', then he can't do it.

No, he apparently didn't, he left SOLDIER and had his diseased state. Sephiroth obviously did in those 2 years before the Incident since he remained in SOLDIER, also Zack, reason of why he went from 2nd Class to 1st Class. Zack was, at least, almost on par with Pre-Nib Sephiroth at that point already. (4 years later the Incident) Zack defeats Genesis Avatar, who is stronger than even Pre-Nib Sephiroth.

Lmao, sure, and if you pause the dialogue on: "TIME TO DIE" and you do nothing, then there you can expend more than 2 hours. The black transiton doesn't count. Thing is, when Zell is being knocked down, those are just 1 to 2, even to 3 seconds, no more. Squall has 3 seconds, 1 to show up, 1 to locate Zell's position and 1 second to jump and save his damn ass.

Lol'd. Are you implying that Squall jumped less than a meter? You need a reality check. Jumping 5 to 6 feets high into air and 60 to 70 feets long and send a man to sleep in a freaking second is something that none of us can actually do. Now prove up, or kindly shut da heck up. Stubbornness is the strength of the weak

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You said he didn't do anything because Sephiroth would have retaliated, if that was more important than letting the planet being crushed, I have to think Cloud is retarded. Don't tell me Cloud thought he had a chance against him anyway by 'holding there', cuz I will laugh even more at you.

Indeed. When Cloud could do what Squall does in about a second, give me a call.

Wrong, Yuffie steals THEIR Materia in FFVII, what does that means? That THEY uses Materia. Why THEY didn't used them in AC? Because THEY didn't wanted to drain the Planet's life ANYMORE, which also means THEY HAVE used them BEFORE. Are you going to argue against canon? Tifa may help, just as any party member does, that still says NOTHING about HER INDIVIDUALLY. <--- Big text for you to grasp before reapeating yourself like you did in the course of the entire thread.

Actually, you need to stop being ridiculous. Cloud was able to perform THAT action for the reasons SpadeKing I have posted like hundred of times in this thread, it isn't EXACTLY the same situation either, for the same reasons we have posted. Cloud hadn't any kind of PIS boost in AC, except Zack's PIS boost, and if he can't do it without his 'hometown influence', then he can't do it.

No, he apparently didn't, he left SOLDIER and had his diseased state. Sephiroth obviously did in those 2 years before the Incident since he remained in SOLDIER, also Zack, reason of why he went from 2nd Class to 1st Class. Zack was, at least, almost on par with Pre-Nib Sephiroth at that point already. (4 years later the Incident) Zack defeats Genesis Avatar, who is stronger than even Pre-Nib Sephiroth.

Lmao, sure, and if you pause the dialogue on: "TIME TO DIE" and you do nothing, then there you can expend more than 2 hours. The black transiton doesn't count. Thing is, when Zell is being knocked down, those are just 1 to 2, even to 3 seconds, no more. Squall has 3 seconds, 1 to show up, 1 to locate Zell's position and 1 second to jump and save his damn ass.

Lol'd. Are you implying that Squall jumped less than a meter? You need a reality check. Jumping 5 to 6 feets high into air and 60 to 70 feets long and send a man to sleep in a freaking second is something that none of us can actually do. Now prove up, or kindly shut da heck up. Stubbornness is the strength of the weak

He couldn't do anything because Sephiroth wouldn't let him, yes. It's not like he was hanging there all that long. I want you to tell me. What SHOULD Cloud have done?

See? There you go again. So here I go again. When Squall can do anything close to Clouds capabilities, give me a call. I can do this all day GreiverSquall.

Yes. It's canon that the team used materia, but it ISN'T canon that Tifa did. Again, everything was up to the player. One more time. The ONLY thing we know about Tifa for SURE is that she fights with her fists, isn't super human, and kills big monsters. We know all those things 100%.

You do realize that I fully and completely reject the idea of PIS, right? It's very simple. If Cloud does action A, he is able to perform action A. If he ISN'T able to perform action A, then he never would have done action A.

Zack was never anywhere near Sephiroths abilities. Not before or after the 2 years. And again, you cannot show that pre-Nib Sephiroth is stronger than Holding back Sephiroth, so your argument falls flat there anyway.

Do you see what you are doing here? You just laid out the exact string of events that happened OFF SCREEN and how long each one took. That's an amazing feat. Are you psychic? You are basing your argument off of information that you made up about something we never see happen.

No, we can't do that. But that is not even close to the point. It takes less than a second to do a jump. Squall's jump is bigger, so it will take him slightly longer to do it. The point is, Squall's jump shouldn't have taken much more than one second normally. Jumping doesn't take very long. That's a perfectly normal speed.

Originally posted by TacDavey
He couldn't do anything because Sephiroth wouldn't let him, yes. It's not like he was hanging there all that long. I want you to tell me. What SHOULD Cloud have done?

Yes. It's canon that the team used materia, but it ISN'T canon that Tifa did. Again, everything was up to the player. One more time. The ONLY thing we know about Tifa for SURE is that she fights with her fists, isn't super human, and kills big monsters. We know all those things 100%.

You do realize that I fully and completely reject the idea of PIS, right? It's very simple. If Cloud does action A, he is able to perform action A. If he ISN'T able to perform action A, then he never would have done action A.

I'm just following your logic. So you say that for Cloud was more important to not let Sephiroth to retaliate than everything else. I would think he thought he had a chance then, which makes me think your argument is certainly ridiculous. Cloud simply couldn't retaliate because he couldn't, not because he didn't do anything.

And wut da hell Tifa is supposed to be? Part of that team. One more time. A group of 9 people with Materia, Summon and weaponry kills da big monsters, that's a team merit. If you're talking about her INDIVIDUALLY and wanna claim stuff from her strength alone, then bring damn feats.

Who knows? Maybe a guy can't perform something, and then later in a SAME situation the same guy CAN perform it. Cloud did perform something for reasons we have posted already, and didn't performed it later, for reasons we have posted already.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Zack was never anywhere near Sephiroths abilities. Not before or after the 2 years. And again, you cannot show that pre-Nib Sephiroth is stronger than Holding back Sephiroth, so your argument falls flat there anyway.

Do you see what you are doing here? You just laid out the exact string of events that happened OFF SCREEN and how long each one took. That's an amazing feat. Are you psychic? You are basing your argument off of information that you made up about something we never see happen.

No, we can't do that. But that is not even close to the point. It takes less than a second to do a jump. Squall's jump is bigger, so it will take him slightly longer to do it. The point is, Squall's jump shouldn't have taken much more than one second normally. Jumping doesn't take very long. That's a perfectly normal speed.

You're right, before the Incident Zack was still a 2nd Class SOLDIER, whereas Sephiroth was a 1st Class one. In the Incident (2 years later) we can safely say Zack was on par with Genesis (before the degrading) thus on par with Pre-Nib Sephiroth. However, Sephiroth (during the Incident) was stronger than Zack, Genesis, and Angeal. But, 4 years after the Incident, Zack had (obviously) more training and his second SOLDIER treatment, he was unaffected by the Mako Poisoning, but is assumed he received a boost, since he managed to defeat Genesis Avatar, whom has got a vast incredibly power directly from the Lifestream. Genesis Avatar > Genesis > Genesis diseased. Holding back Sephiroth just limit himself in basic swordsmanship to dominate Cloud, he didn't used a damn fraction of his abilities.
On a side note, is good to see how you rely on CC Zack by the way, despite the fact that you're not using AC Cloud. Lmao.

No, it's a logical reasoning, we have just seconds at our disposal. Squall wasn't there before, therefore he showed up in time before Zell is shot. Otherwise Zell is shot. It's a logical reasoning.

No, sometimes it takes just a second. That would be true if Squall's jump WERE 'normal' speed. Which isn't. Squall's jump wasn't only higher, he cleared several feets in that room with it and in an insane angle. I'm afraid that jumping all of that in freaking second is indeed super-speed AND strength. The best thing is that he apparently didn't exert himself either, which makes it even more jawsome. 😄

Originally posted by TacDavey
See? There you go again. So here I go again. When Squall can do anything close to Clouds capabilities, give me a call. I can do this all day GreiverSquall.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Cloud being stronger comes from what he uses as a weapon coupled with how he wields it. I asked for some sign that Squall possessed above average strength as well, but as of yet, no one has offered any.

And what da hell yer doing in this damn post? Aren't you saying 'i wanna c if sqaull is az strong as kloud'? Aren't you saying Cloud being STRONGER there? Guess what champ, I am asking the same damn thing in Squall's case, I asked for some sign that Cloud possessed above average speed/agility, but as of yet, no one has offered any.

C wut i did there?

Originally posted by TacDavey
He can lift it as a grunt. I don't see him wielding it like he does through the rest of the game.

Exactly. That would be completely unwieldy. Or at least it wouldn't be able to be wielded like Cloud can, with one hand, as if it weighed 2-3 pounds.

That is cause he didn't wield it very long nor did he attack much though he managed to begin a jumping attack before he got impaled, almost the exact same way in ACC.

Majority of his attacks are two handed though and it wouldn't be completely unwieldy and of course not like Cloud can, he has genetic enhancements I'm sure someone who bought the sword replica can probably use it decently one handed..... fun fact Sephiroth's overcompensating sword would be 10lbs.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I'm just following your logic. So you say that for Cloud was more important to not let Sephiroth to retaliate than everything else. I would think he thought he had a chance then, which makes me think your argument is certainly ridiculous. Cloud simply couldn't retaliate because he couldn't, not because he didn't do anything.

And wut da hell Tifa is supposed to be? Part of that team. One more time. A group of 9 people with Materia, Summon and weaponry kills da big monsters, that's a team merit. If you're talking about her INDIVIDUALLY and wanna claim stuff from her strength alone, then bring damn feats.

Who knows? Maybe a guy can't perform something, and then later in a SAME situation the same guy CAN perform it. Cloud did perform something for reasons we have posted already, and didn't performed it later, for reasons we have posted already.

You're right, before the Incident Zack was still a 2nd Class SOLDIER, whereas Sephiroth was a 1st Class one. In the Incident (2 years later) we can safely say Zack was on par with Genesis (before the degrading) thus on par with Pre-Nib Sephiroth. However, Sephiroth (during the Incident) was stronger than Zack, Genesis, and Angeal. But, 4 years after the Incident, Zack had (obviously) more training and his second SOLDIER treatment, he was unaffected by the Mako Poisoning, but is assumed he received a boost, since he managed to defeat Genesis Avatar, whom has got a vast incredibly power directly from the Lifestream. Genesis Avatar > Genesis > Genesis diseased. Holding back Sephiroth just limit himself in basic swordsmanship to dominate Cloud, he didn't used a damn fraction of his abilities.
On a side note, is good to see how you rely on CC Zack by the way, despite the fact that you're not using AC Cloud. Lmao.

No, it's a logical reasoning, we have just seconds at our disposal. Squall wasn't there before, therefore he showed up in time before Zell is shot. Otherwise Zell is shot. It's a logical reasoning.

No, sometimes it takes just a second. That would be true if Squall's jump WERE 'normal' speed. Which isn't. Squall's jump wasn't only higher, he cleared several feets in that room with it and in an insane angle. I'm afraid that jumping all of that in freaking second is indeed super-speed AND strength. The best thing is that he apparently didn't exert himself either, which makes it even more jawsome. 😄

And what da hell yer doing in this damn post? Aren't you saying 'i wanna c if sqaull is az strong as kloud'? Aren't you saying Cloud being STRONGER there? Guess what champ, I am asking the same damn thing in Squall's case, I asked for some sign that Cloud possessed above average speed/agility, but as of yet, no one has offered any.

C wut i did there?

Yes, Cloud couldn't do anything. You know why? Because Sephiroth wouldn't allow him to. Do you really think Sephiroth was just going to sit back and watch while Cloud crawled his way up the blade and threw him off a cliff?

Yes, but what I laid out we know for FACT. Tifa fights with fists, she helps kill big monsters. Which one of those two facts are wrong, GreiverSquall? Which one? However, it would be WRONG to say "Tifa kills monsters with materia" because that ISN'T certain. The other two ARE.

You're right about one thing. We have posted the reasons why Cloud couldn't repeat the action. The problem is, my reasons are different than your reasons. As we are discussing in point 1.

No, Zack never received ANY boost. The experiment failed on him. It didn't work because he had already had mako injections. You have no idea what Holding Back Sephiroth is compared to pre-Nib Sephiroth, so don't claim you do. All we know is they both aren't Sephiroths full abilities. That's it.

Yeah, but we have more than 1 second for Squall to show up. He had multiple seconds to show up and start the jump.

I know. Squalls jump is bigger than a normal one, which takes less than a second. So it should likely take a bit longer. His jump time is still normal for the distance and height he went. Besides, we can SEE how fast he is moving when he enters the screen! And it isn't super speed at all!

WRONG! I never said Cloud WAS stronger than Squall, I simply asked if there was any evidence Squall was as strong.

You said Squall WAS faster than Cloud.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
That is cause he didn't wield it very long nor did he attack much though he managed to begin a jumping attack before he got impaled, almost the exact same way in ACC.

Majority of his attacks are two handed though and it wouldn't be completely unwieldy and of course not like Cloud can, he has genetic enhancements I'm sure someone who bought the sword replica can probably use it decently one handed..... fun fact Sephiroth's overcompensating sword would be 10lbs.

Exactly. Cloud has genetic enhancements that make his strength above those of a normal person, thus allowing him to wield that sword the way he does.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, Cloud couldn't do anything. You know why? Because Sephiroth wouldn't allow him to. Do you really think Sephiroth was just going to sit back and watch while Cloud crawled his way up the blade and threw him off a cliff?

Yes, but what I laid out we know for FACT. Tifa fights with fists, she helps kill big monsters. Which one of those two facts are wrong, GreiverSquall? Which one? However, it would be WRONG to say "Tifa kills monsters with materia" because that ISN'T certain. The other two ARE.

You're right about one thing. We have posted the reasons why Cloud couldn't repeat the action. The problem is, my reasons are different than your reasons. As we are discussing in point 1.

You said Cloud DIDN'T do anything because he knew Sephiroth would have retaliated. That is what you said. You really think that makes a difference? Do you really think Cloud had any chance to save his life by just 'holding there' without doing anything because (according to you) he knew Sephiroth would have retaliated? That's just ridiculous. Cloud knew he was about to get killed, so obviously he tried his best to get off that attack, without success.

Their usage of Materia in the story is also fact, you know? I said a team with Materia, Summons and weaponry does it, which includes Tifa, you know why? Because she's part of that damn team. What's so difficult to understand here? Are you really having so much hard time to even grasp it? Come on, you can do better than this.

He didn't because it isn't EXACTLY the same situation. There are several advantageous circumstances that allowed Cloud to perform said action.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, Zack never received ANY boost. The experiment failed on him. It didn't work because he had already had mako injections. You have no idea what Holding Back Sephiroth is compared to pre-Nib Sephiroth, so don't claim you do. All we know is they both aren't Sephiroths full abilities. That's it.

Yeah, but we have more than 1 second for Squall to show up. He had multiple seconds to show up and start the jump.

I know. Squalls jump is bigger than a normal one, which takes less than a second. So it should likely take a bit longer. His jump time is still normal for the distance and height he went. Besides, we can SEE how fast he is moving when he enters the screen! And it isn't super speed at all!

That's why I said he was unaffected by the Mako Poisoning. But if that thing about the boost isn't true, then still he had 4 whole years to have been improving himself. Reasons of why he managed to beat such powerful opponent as Genesis Avatar by himself which > Genesis/Pre-Nib Seph. Holding back Sephiroth don't exert himself and just uses basic swordsmanship to dominate Cloud, not even a fraction of his own abilities, and still could have killed him. Any fights against Sephiroth can be used as proof of Cloud's strength, firstly because he never took him as an serious opponent nor threat, and secondly because AC Seph is stronger than both, Zack and Cloud.

Nope, not multiple, just 2 or 3.

I'm sorry, but jumping, let's say, 5 feets long in a second, it isn't the same as jumping 60 to 70 feets long in a second. It's just if I run 5 feets long in a second, it wouldn't be the same as me running 60 to 70 feets long in a second. That's above average speed/agility/strength, and I never said Squall wasn't visible, or I did? Unless you think I thought he moved at the speed of sound, which I certainly didn't.

Originally posted by TacDavey
WRONG! I never said Cloud WAS stronger than Squall, I simply asked if there was any evidence Squall was as strong.

You said Squall WAS faster than Cloud

Wrong, I never said Squall WAS faster than Cloud, I simply asked if there was any evidence Cloud was as fast.

You said Cloud WAS stronger than Squall.

C wut eye did there?!

Of course but it isn't like wielding it one handed is some super feat ermm

That isn't even a real feat, he just handles the sword better than a normal human would with his enhancements /end of sword argument

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You said Cloud DIDN'T do anything because he knew Sephiroth would have retaliated. That is what you said. You really think that makes a difference? Do you really think Cloud had any chance to save his life by just 'holding there' without doing anything because (according to you) he knew Sephiroth would have retaliated? That's just ridiculous. Cloud knew he was about to get killed, so obviously he tried his best to get off that attack, without success.

Their usage of Materia in the story is also fact, you know? I said a team with Materia, Summons and weaponry does it, which includes Tifa, you know why? Because she's part of that damn team. What's so difficult to understand here? Are you really having so much hard time to even grasp it? Come on, you can do better than this.

He didn't because it isn't EXACTLY the same situation. There are several advantageous circumstances that allowed Cloud to perform said action.

That's why I said he was unaffected by the Mako Poisoning. But if that thing about the boost isn't true, then still he had 4 whole years to have been improving himself. Reasons of why he managed to beat such powerful opponent as Genesis Avatar by himself which > Genesis/Pre-Nib Seph. Holding back Sephiroth don't exert himself and just uses basic swordsmanship to dominate Cloud, not even a fraction of his own abilities, and still could have killed him. Any fights against Sephiroth can be used as proof of Cloud's strength, firstly because he never took him as an serious opponent nor threat, and secondly because AC Seph is stronger than both, Zack and Cloud.

Nope, not multiple, just 2 or 3.

I'm sorry, but jumping, let's say, 5 feets long in a second, it isn't the same as jumping 60 to 70 feets long in a second. It's just if I run 5 feets long in a second, it wouldn't be the same as me running 60 to 70 feets long in a second. That's above average speed/agility/strength, and I never said Squall wasn't visible, or I did? Unless you think I thought he moved at the speed of sound, which I certainly didn't.

Wrong, I never said Squall WAS faster than Cloud, I simply asked if there was any evidence Cloud was as fast.

You said Cloud WAS stronger than Squall.

C wut eye did there?!

No, GreiverSquall, that isn't how it works. Cloud wasn't even struggling at all. We can see as much by looking at the scene. He isn't doing anything. He isn't trying to pull himself up the blade, he isn't trying to push himself off the blade. He is just hanging there. Unless hanging there is some strange way of trying to retaliation. He's just chilling.

I know they use materia. But TIFA using materia ISN'T fact. The TEAM using materia is fact. TIFA using materia IS NOT FACT.

Exactly. It isn't the same situation, I agree. It is you who seems to think it's the same situation by claiming Cloud should have been able to perform the same action twice. That's what I've been saying, he couldn't do his reactor stunt, because the situation was different. Not because he couldn't do it.

I know. Sephiroth can't be used to show either Clouds strength, nor Zacks because he is above both of them. Which means you can't say Zack is stronger than Cloud because he was stronger than pre-Nib Sephiroth.

2 or 3 is multiple seconds, is it not? A 2 or 3 second jump is plenty of time for a perfectly normal speed.

Wrong, you implied that Squall was faster than Cloud. I didn't. I never said Cloud was stronger than Squall. Ever. In fact, I specifically said that I WASN'T saying Cloud was stronger than Squall.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Of course but it isn't like wielding it one handed is some super feat ermm

That isn't even a real feat, he just handles the sword better than a normal human would with his enhancements /end of sword argument

Well, it IS a strength feat. Like you said, normal people can't do it. So it's a feat that shows Cloud's above human strength. That's all I was saying.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, it IS a strength feat. Like you said, normal people can't do it. So it's a feat that shows Cloud's above human strength. That's all I was saying.

No I said they just wouldn't handle it as well as Cloud, I'm sure no normal person would handle any sword better than Cloud one or two handed. Nowhere did I say they can't... Do you ever use what was actually said without twisting? ermm

Originally posted by SpadeKing
No I said they just wouldn't handle it as well as Cloud, I'm sure no normal person would handle any sword better than Cloud one or two handed. Nowhere did I say they can't... Do you ever use what was actually said without twisting? ermm

Right, they can't wield it like Cloud. How am I twisting your words? You said "he can handle it better than a normal person could". Doesn't that mean "a normal person can't handle it like him"?

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, GreiverSquall, that isn't how it works. Cloud wasn't even struggling at all. We can see as much by looking at the scene. He isn't doing anything. He isn't trying to pull himself up the blade, he isn't trying to push himself off the blade. He is just hanging there. Unless hanging there is some strange way of trying to retaliation. He's just chilling.

Exactly. It isn't the same situation, I agree. It is you who seems to think it's the same situation by claiming Cloud should have been able to perform the same action twice. That's what I've been saying, he couldn't do his reactor stunt, because the situation was different. Not because he couldn't do it.

He isn't doing ANYTHING? Except he's grabbing the Masamune with a very mad face. Except he's shaking his legs. Ok, I get that. Now following your own words, 'Cloud didn't tried anything cuz Seph would have retaliated'. Where's your evidence on Cloud's thoughts? And if that were true, what's the difference? Do you really think that 'hanging there' doing nothing is better than trying something? So Cloud thought he had a chance by hanging there? So Cloud forgot about his friends, the planet and his own life just for hanging there? It doesn't follow. Your argument is illogical and ridiculous.

You said he didn't, not that he couldn't, and I said he DID tried, and he couldn't. See the difference? And if you say he couldn't do his reactor stunt because the situation was different, then by that logic he can't do it in an actual fight. Thing is, Cloud simply did that in the reactor for reasons I have posted already.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I know they use materia. But TIFA using materia ISN'T fact. The TEAM using materia is fact. TIFA using materia IS NOT FACT.

I know. Sephiroth can't be used to show either Clouds strength, nor Zacks because he is above both of them. Which means you can't say Zack is stronger than Cloud because he was stronger than pre-Nib Sephiroth.

As long as she's part of that TEAM, then she used Materia, thus is fact that she used Materia. 🙂

I don't even care about Zack, you brought him up despite in not using AC, and I never said he was stronger than Cloud, you said you would argue he is stronger than Zack. 😐

Originally posted by TacDavey
2 or 3 is multiple seconds, is it not? A 2 or 3 second jump is plenty of time for a perfectly normal speed.

Wrong, you implied that Squall was faster than Cloud. I didn't. I never said Cloud was stronger than Squall. Ever. In fact, I specifically said that I WASN'T saying Cloud was stronger than Squall.

Nope, Squall had to show up first, then locate Zell's position, then find a spot to jump, and then jump. That takes some seconds, but the jump alone is just around 1 second.

No, I didn't, I showed a Squall's speed feat and now I wanna see a Cloud's speed feat, that's how things usually works here, ya know?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Right, they can't wield it like Cloud. How am I twisting your words? You said "he can handle it better than a normal person could". Doesn't that mean "a normal person can't handle it like him"?

And you said a normal person can't do it.

unless you meant a normal person can't handle their sword like him and if that is what you meant, elaborate more on it, it just sounds like you're saying that a normal person can't wield it one handed.