Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nai, things here would involve:
When does age really matter in Star Wars? The young upstart is liable to win most of the time.
The point is that Ragnos is a Dark Side user (you know - the fast path) and has more than a century of experience with using said power. Do you remember Dooku's thoughts about a Dark Side Yoda ?
And Shimrra goes down fast? Shimrra is incredibly strong and fast with numerous bio weapons built right into him and he's invulnerable to the Force from Ragnos, there is no way he;ll 'go down fast.'
That would help him how exactly if Ragnos decides to drop the ceiling on him or desintegrate the ground under his feet ?
This is the problem: when people say Ragnos is unknown but them claim he could take on or even defeat these three absolute power houses. And if it ever came down to it, it's pretty much fact LFL has been pushing Luke above anyone else. We've seen Luke fight his way through an army and cut through hundreds if not thousands of warriors almost singlehandedly, he's been called a Maelstromen in the force, we know he's learned a gargantuan amount of powers and defenses in the force...I don't see Ragnos, who you acknowledge as an unknown taking him....hell, I'm dubious KJA-who's supposed to reply back to me any time now- would allow his precious Exar to lose to Ragnos.
This always irks me, Lightsnake.
You handle information given by in universe characters as LFL official opinion. LFL doesn't have "official opinions" on the power of certain characters (except when there is a damn obvious gap in power levels) if only for the single reason that they don't want to mess around with the fans. It's the opinion of the fan that matters unless directly contradicting statements given - and I didn't see official statements on Sith Lord powerlevels anywhere.
Ragnos can be judged to a degree that he's obviously more powerful than people who studied the Dark Side for centuries, more powerful than people who could kill several Jedi Council Members with a single force attack. More powerful than people who nearly brought down the Republic and Empress Teta at once just using some force illusions. And when I say "superior" you can add a "vastly" in front of that.
True, Ragnos's spirit might've been strong there as he'd just died, but when he'd gotten a massive pick me up from the Sceptre, he was unable to affect Jaden.
Yes. But we know that force spirits are normally totally unable to affect the real world. And if you consider that fact it's quite impressive that Nadd could floor Vodo when he was dead for 400 years (even if Vodo might have been concentrating on Kun) and it's much more impressive that Ragnos could mark Ulic's and Exar's foreheads by just placing his hand on them - 1,000 years after his death and while being on the other side of the Galaxy.
Now imagine a living Ragnos on top of his power with all his artifacts and you might get an idea why people like Kreia (who is clearly not a weakling in terms of force powers) descriped his grasp on the dark side as "frightening".
@Razielim
I'm having trouble seeing the, as you put it, ionized air particles of one Sith Lord beating the crap out of another living Sith Lord, regardless of reputation.
Nadd's spirit pwned Kun (who was clearly not weak at that point), floored Vodo , who was on the other side of the Galaxy (a 600 year old Jedi Master) and killed Ommin (although Ommin was quite helpless - still Nadd took his life). And he was able to nearly instantly heal Kun. Yet Nadd was still a nobody compared to Ragnos...
Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is that Ragnos is a Dark Side user (you know - the fast path) and has more than a century of experience with using said power. Do you remember Dooku's thoughts about a Dark Side Yoda ?That would help him how exactly if Ragnos decides to drop the ceiling on him or desintegrate the ground under his feet ?
This always irks me, Lightsnake.
You handle information given by in universe characters as LFL official opinion. LFL doesn't have "official opinions" on the power of certain characters (except when there is a damn obvious gap in power levels) if only for the single reason that they don't want to mess around with the fans. It's the opinion of the fan that matters unless directly contradicting statements given - and I didn't see official statements on Sith Lord powerlevels anywhere.Ragnos can be judged to a degree that he's obviously more powerful than people who studied the Dark Side for centuries, more powerful than people who could kill several Jedi Council Members with a single force attack. More powerful than people who nearly brought down the Republic and Empress Teta at once just using some force illusions. And when I say "superior" you can add a "vastly" in front of that.
Yes. But we know that force spirits are normally totally unable to affect the real world. And if you consider that fact it's quite impressive that Nadd could floor Vodo when he was dead for 400 years (even if Vodo might have been concentrating on Kun) and it's much more impressive that Ragnos could mark Ulic's and Exar's foreheads by just placing his hand on them - 1,000 years after his death and while being on the other side of the Galaxy.
Now imagine a living Ragnos on top of his power with all his artifacts and you might get an idea why people like Kreia (who is clearly not a weakling in terms of force powers) descriped his grasp on the dark side as "frightening".
well said
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Ragnos ruled untouched.
Prove Ragnos could defeat Sadow and KRessh together.
What a stupid argument. Hey lightsnake, prove Sidious could beat Ragnos, prove Sidious could beat Sadow. See the stupidity in that?
Name another DLOTS that ruled untouched.. Meaning he never lost, didn't get killed, aka DIED OF OLD AGE... There goes your argument
Prove Ragnos could defeat Sadow and Kressh together? Another stupid argument.. Lets see they bowed to him while he was a ghost, they both feared and respected him, while Sadow and most sith lords hated him, and he was never challenged. Therefore he was the most powerful of the ancient Sith..
Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is that Ragnos is a Dark Side user (you know - the fast path) and has more than a century of experience with using said power. Do you remember Dooku's thoughts about a Dark Side Yoda ?That would help him how exactly if Ragnos decides to drop the ceiling on him or desintegrate the ground under his feet ?
This always irks me, Light
snake.
You handle information given by in universe characters as LFL official opinion. LFL doesn't have "official opinions" on the power of certain characters (except when there is a damn obvious gap in power levels) if only for the single reason that they don't want to mess around with the fans. It's the opinion of the fan that matters unless directly contradicting statements given - and I didn't see official statements on Sith Lord powerlevels anywhere.Ragnos can be judged to a degree that he's obviously more powerful than people who studied the Dark Side for centuries, more powerful than people who could kill several Jedi Council Members with a single force attack. More powerful than people who nearly brought down the Republic and Empress Teta at once just using some force illusions. And when I say "superior" you can add a "vastly" in front of that.
Yes. But we know that force spirits are normally totally unable to affect the real world. And if you consider that fact it's quite impressive that Nadd could floor Vodo when he was dead for 400 years (even if Vodo might have been concentrating on Kun) and it's much more impressive that Ragnos could mark Ulic's and Exar's foreheads by just placing his hand on them - 1,000 years after his death and while being on the other side of the Galaxy.
Now imagine a living Ragnos on top of his power with all his artifacts and you might get an idea why people like Kreia (who is clearly not a weakling in terms of force powers) descriped his grasp on the dark side as "frightening".
@Razielim
Nadd's spirit pwned Kun (who was clearly not weak at that point), floored Vodo , who was on the other side of the Galaxy (a 600 year old Jedi Master) and killed Ommin (although Ommin was quite helpless - still Nadd took his life). And he was able to nearly instantly heal Kun. Yet Nadd was still a nobody compared to Ragnos...
That's going to be Ragnos's first instinct? Seriously, it wouldn't help Ragnos much either if he drops the roof on his own head or destroys the ground beneath his own feet.
Thing is, though, people in LFL do seem of the opinion of Luke and Palpatine's superiority...I'm waiting for KJA's word on it, but these people make Star Wars their job, I'm inclined to trust some of them on the issue, just like how Thrawn is apparently the greatest strategist who ever lived...and in universe, Voren apparently knows the inside and outs of the Hyperspace war and information from the Sith past, very intimately..he's basically a mouthpiece for the author, that's it.
I could see that, but Vodo was connected to Kun as well as Nadd there and dark side spirits have a habit of being able to affect the living world. Ragnos branding the duo after the amulets summoned him...but Nadd a weakling to Ragnos? Nadd dropped a ceiling on Kun, he didn't attack him personally...and didn't he just trick Kun into destroying the chamber housing those spirits, hence the collapse? Nadd also killed Sadow, circumstances unknown, but still.
And Kreia also lived quite some time before the Ancient Empire and we've no clue if her statement should be taken as gospel any more than Voren Na'al, or anyone from LFL. Nadd, by his own admission was practically powerless...and by rhe same admission, look at Palpatine's spirit, which could pretty much destroy worlds and tear itself out of death. And when he was alive, he also had quite the collection of Sith weaponry and artifacts, probably guided to them by the spirits or the dark side.
And Sadow's illusions were simply focusing on the belief of the enemy...the Jedi were still fighting strong and that the Ancients were beaten on just three worlds and without the illusions couldn't hope tot riumph isn't exactly singing their praises.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Ragnos ruled untouched.
Err...he died because of his age. That pretty much equals "ruling untouched".
Prove Ragnos could defeat Sadow and KRessh together.
I still believe they both had some reason to kneel down before his spirit as well as I still believe that Kressh had some reason to think Ragnos could destroy Sadow other than being a Ragnos worshipper.
If you have a look at the action of Nadd's spirit you might very well conclude that Ragnos in spirit form was still able to tool one of his former subordinates - and then he might very well be able to handle them both at once with his power as a living being and access to his artifacts (sceptre, amulets, Sith sword).
I mean...just think about his weapons. When pocessing Tavion he wields the sceptre and his sword at once. So while all Sith Lords we see fighting handle their weapons two-handed Ragnos handles his sword one-handed while still being able to blast people with his sceptre. If you follow that way of thinking you might very well come to the conclusion that he might be able to destroy Sadow and Kressh both at once.
And another thought on the sceptre: When a Dark Side Jaden can floor Kyle Katarn with it I'm pretty sure Ragnos handling his own weapon might very well be able to take Kun / Luke out of the fight with a sceptre blast. Even if it's only for a short amount of time this might very well be deadly...
Nadd's spirit pwned Kun (who was clearly not weak at that point)
But unlike Sadow or Kressh, Kun was not a hardened Sith Lord at this point. When he was a hardened Sith Lord... well, we know what happened.
floored Vodo , who was on the other side of the Galaxy (a 600 year old Jedi Master)
I never really got to read this part. Can someone please describe what happened?
And he was able to nearly instantly heal Kun. Yet Nadd was still a nobody compared to Ragnos...
Pretty good... I suppose.
Err...he died because of his age. That pretty much equals "ruling untouched".
"Ruling unbeaten" would be more accurate IMO.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Err...he died because of his age. That pretty much equals "ruling untouched".I still believe they both had some reason to kneel down before his spirit as well as I still believe that Kressh had some reason to think Ragnos could destroy Sadow other than being a Ragnos worshipper.
If you have a look at the action of Nadd's spirit you might very well conclude that Ragnos in spirit form was still able to tool one of his former subordinates - and then he might very well be able to handle them both at once with his power as a living being and access to his artifacts (sceptre, amulets, Sith sword).I mean...just think about his weapons. When pocessing Tavion he wields the sceptre and his sword at once. So while all Sith Lords we see fighting handle their weapons two-handed Ragnos handles his sword one-handed while still being able to blast people with his sceptre. If you follow that way of thinking you might very well come to the conclusion that he might be able to destroy Sadow and Kressh both at once.
And another thought on the sceptre: When a Dark Side Jaden can floor Kyle Katarn with it I'm pretty sure Ragnos handling his own weapon might very well be able to take Kun / Luke out of the fight with a sceptre blast. Even if it's only for a short amount of time this might very well be deadly...
Nai, we don't know how Ragnos's rule really went...sure he died of old age, but what if there were other contenders? A civil war? Challenges of his rule? He ruled undefeated, true, but unchallenged?
Nadd's spirit, by its own admission was powerless...so we either have a plothole from Veitch or its because they were connected to the same person...and even before Ragnos showed up, Ludo was worshipping the ground he was being carried on...Ludo's about as much of a Ragnos groupie as you get...possibly he took Ragnos's power in life to carry over to death.
And Luke's faced Sith technology before, Kun's mastered quite a bit of his own.
And Nai? Ragnos hurls the scepter away when he draws his sword, not only that, the dark side ending is firmly uncanon. And that scepter is fragile...and highly dodgeable.
Originally posted by tdtd
If you recall, some of his illusions were indeed real.. I don't know why Sadow is in this conversation and fans are entitled to their own opinion, and that's what youre doing with all that hyperbole. That's why this forum exists, for logical arguments that separate opinions from possible facts.
That's untrue, illusions cause people to go into shock. At worst
Originally posted by tdtd
Wait wait.. He's coherent and i'm just illogical? Wow, I like your comparisons.. This must be the incompetent Darth Traya that had nothing to contribute to this forum and that's been verbally raped many many times. I like your simplistic high school insult, or the attempt at least.. Shows what kind of a moron you truly are.. "He's coherent and youre just illogical". What does that say for my coherent abilities and his logic? Oh wait, you can't understand half of what you type..And Ackbar, you haven't provided a single logical argument which leads me to believe you have no comprehension of the term logic. All of the new kids that have just SOME knowledge of the SW galaxy think they have logic. It's quite amusing.
New kids? I've been around here for more than 1 year. And I dont have just SOME knowledge either. Sorry for not posting story long arguments, I quite frankly dont have time for something like that. This forum is just a place I hang out when I have leisure time. Which I often do not have.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me. But what kind of idiotic "logic" is that ? If he didn't manage to surpass Ragnos in more than 100 years when do you think that this would have happened ? He kneels down before Ragnos' "ionized air particles" and Kressh who is equally powerful even thinks that Ragnos has returned to destroy Sadow (at least he must have some reason to think that Ragnos would be able to do that).Again: If one of those two fears him enough to suggest that even his spirit is powerful enough to destroy one of them - what do you think a living Ragnos could do with them ?
And personally I don't see Ragnos losing the fight. Shimrra can't use the force, Ragnos is equal to the Supreme Overlord in terms of raw physical power but in contrary to Shimrra he can gain more physical strength and speed by using the force. This is still excluding the possibility that Ragnos might just bring down the entire enviroment down on the Vong. Shimrra is pretty much toast.
Kun did mostly have knowledge handed to him by Nadd and Sadow with the little difference that he didn't have centuries to exercise that knowledge like Sadow had who didn't manage to surpass Ragnos even with that amount of "training time". So can Kun be a threat to Ragnos ? He can't...
And we have DN Luke. Luke is strong, yes. But again Ragnos has at least a century more experience in fighting and force use compared to Luke not talking about the huge amount of fatal force attacks he knows. Can Luke defeat him ? I don't think so.
Now of course you have the three added up. Still Shimrra will go down pretty fast making this a two on one situation and while Kun and Luke are both exceptional duellists and force users, Ragnos might still be able to overcome them in a force fight or in a lightsaber duel. And I say might because Ragnos - even with all the statements we have about him - is still an unknown pretty much.
Shimrra cant use the force? Funny.. Ragnos cant use it on Shimrra either. Sure, Ragnos is = to Shimrra In terms of raw power, but Shimrra's physical enchancers are the same as Ragnos powered up by the force. Who said there is anything to drop in the first place? Im sure IF there was anything to drop it would not be his first move. And couldent Luke and Exar hold it all up in place, or hurl it at him?
Exar would be enough of an annoyance.
Ok, when did I say Luke would defeat him in a duel? I dident! Thought so..
Shimrra will go down fast and then it would be a 2v1 situation? Shimrra nearly tooled Luke in a fight and you say Shimrra would be beat quick while Luke could fight off Ragnos? What kind of Logic is that?
If he is truly unknown, then you cant speculate that he might or might not win. All we know is that he was powerful, Naga Sadow, Ludo bowed to him. he was among the most powerful of the most powerful Sith. And well... thats it, of course I might be missing a quote here or there.
The physical enhancers are the same as Ragnos' force abilities? Hardly... Illogical speculation..The Power of the force>all.. Ragnos can use that to his advantage although he can't directly use force attacks on Shimrra. However he can use physical manifestations such as chug rocks, mountains, create avalanches, etc... In fact it should be rather easy for him if he has a distance.. And being the most powerful of the most powerful ancient sith already puts Ragnos on a pedastal nobody else has reached.