Midnighter vs Wolverine

Originally posted by leonidas
but your other factors are not always present either. but for clarity, what ARE the other factors that show the force of a punch? i know you mentioned concussive force (manifest as shockwaves, perhaps?) and maybe collateral damage. is there something i missed?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Flying isn't the only thing. The concussion force isn't nearly as hard as some punches Namor has made. Example:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30815313047.gif&s=x11
He's holding back on Wolverine.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Hovering AND TALKING TO HIM PEACEFULLY, AFTER he had risen up, AND AFTER he had KILLED HIS ADVISOR.

he's out there hovering while wolverine's down.. then wolverine gets up... and he's still there..

again.. if we're going to rationaliza into this as deep as you have is it inplausible that namor was considering superhero relations and the conflicts that might arrise if he continues the fight?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
You seem to miss lot of parts. Also there is the whole struggling with the girder thing ("unhh!"😉.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yeah, he's trying to throw him away, my mistake. But, for some reason, he's simply trying to keep Wolverine away for the first three pages, evading him...moving him with rope...going defensive...oh yeah, what's the another word for that? Right. Holding back.

dd i would agree with, dc. spidey otoh has taken some HUGE shots, so i don't think it pis if spidey didn't get . . . splattered. the one who would likely fare best is wolvie. spidey pounded mercilessly on his head AGAINST stone! and wolvie smiled through it. adamantium skull=no splattered brains. are you contending that ALL cl100s hold back against him?

To be honest, 100+ Ton mechanics are complete bullsh*t.

Reading this debate does open up a big question though:

If all of these 100+ ton strength characters can't send a character that weighs a little over an eighth of a ton to a half ton flying for miles, and there's literally hundreds of these occurences in canon continuity (them fighting eachother), couldn't it always be argued that the character's punches don't pack as much punch as their higher end feats would allude to since the lower end happens in a far greater abundance and can always be proven with scans?

Can you simply write it off as "holding back", or are the higher end feats equivalent to the "man pulls car off of his kid" type of feats that happen in real life when a person is provoked?

If Hulk weighs 1,200 lbs, shouldn't anyone with class 1 (2000 lbs)+ strength at least be able to lift him off his feet with an uppercut?

Originally posted by jinzin
❌ but he picks up a bat to ht wolvie with anyways? 🙄

It look like to me that he was tired of holding back on Wolverine...he finally actually attacked him there...

Originally posted by jinzin
he's out there hovering while wolverine's down.. then wolverine gets up... and he's still there..

Yes...? And he talks to him while still hovering peacefully.

Originally posted by jinzin
again.. if we're going to rationaliza into this as deep as you have is it inplausible that namor was considering superhero relations and the conflicts that might arrise if he continues the fight?

😂 Are you actually serious? He KILLED an ATLANTEAN. ON FRONT OF HIS EYES. Do you think Namor gives jack shit about superhero relations? We are talking about a man who has invaded New York city because they hold up an Atlantean citizen there.

Yes. It is totally implausible. Ridicolous writing.

Originally posted by jinzin
same kinda noise i make when swinging a baseball bat..

Yeah, but half a ton is like 0,0005% of Namor's strength. Do you say "unnh" when lifting a pencil and swinging it? If you do, you should work out more.

Originally posted by jinzin
Orrrrrrrrrrrr he rolled with the claws as not to get gutting like in new invaders and cause wolverine lunged at him he ended up behind wolverine and used the vine to his advantage.. 🙄

Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't doing anything agressive on the first three pages.

Originally posted by leonidas
dd i would agree with, dc. spidey otoh has taken some HUGE shots, so i don't think it pis if spidey didn't get . . . splattered. the one who would likely fare best is wolvie. spidey pounded mercilessly on his head AGAINST stone! and wolvie smiled through it. adamantium skull=no splattered brains. are you contending that ALL cl100s hold back against him?

No. Adamantium skeleton probably supports him, and he has healing factor.

But you can't change the fact that Namor's punch did as much damage (Okay, probably less) then Spider-Man's or Daredevil's punches against Wolverine.

He holds back.

Originally posted by illadelph12
To be honest, 100+ Ton mechanics are complete bullsh*t.

Reading this debate does open up a big question though:

If all of these 100+ ton strength characters can't send a character that weighs a little over an eighth of a ton to a half ton flying for miles, and there's literally hundreds of these occurences in canon continuity (them fighting eachother), couldn't it always be argued that the character's punches don't pack as much punch as their higher end feats would allude to since the lower end happens in a far greater abundance and can always be proven with scans?

Can you simply write it off as "holding back", or are the higher end feats equivalent to the "man pulls car off of his kid" type of feats that happen in real life when a person is provoked?

If Hulk weighs 1,200 lbs, shouldn't anyone with class 1 (2000 lbs)+ strength at least be able to lift him off his feet with an uppercut?

i was wondering when you were gonna chime in . . . 😄

sorta makes some sense, but really defies logic. i think it is essentially inexplicable. nor does it NEED to be explained from the point of the writers. these are comicbooks. logic and science and real world cause and effect can be disregarded and ARE disregarded. we are trying to apply real world logic to a problem that cannot be described by it. that's why i say we need to look at what happens most consistently in books. in this case characters DO go flying a lot, and DON'T go flying at least as much. as i said a few pages ago -- it's fundamentally illogical and inexplicable.

Originally posted by illadelph12
To be honest, 100+ Ton mechanics are complete bullsh*t.

Reading this debate does open up a big question though:

If all of these 100+ ton strength characters can't send a character that weighs a little over an eighth of a ton to a half ton flying for miles, and there's literally hundreds of these occurences in canon continuity (them fighting eachother), couldn't it always be argued that the character's punches don't pack as much punch as their higher end feats would allude to since the lower end happens in a far greater abundance and can always be proven with scans?

Can you simply write it off as "holding back", or are the higher end feats equivalent to the "man pulls car off of his kid" type of feats that happen in real life when a person is provoked?

If Hulk weighs 1,200 lbs, shouldn't anyone with class 1 (2000 lbs)+ strength at least be able to lift him off his feet with an uppercut?

The flying thing has been put aside. I admitted that some things must be sacrificed for the sake of the story.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No. Adamantium skeleton probably supports him, and he has healing factor.

But you can't change the fact that Namor's punch did as much damage (Okay, probably less) then Spider-Man's or Daredevil's punches against Wolverine.

He holds back.

❌

Originally posted by jinzin
❌

✅

When a Class 100 does as much damage as a Class 1, he is holding back. And like I have said before, Namor is known for holding back against people he doesn't want to hurt/kill...
http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/2968/captnamor18vl.gif
That of course is a full power kick to you...

I guess Namor wants to kill Daredevil here, so he punches him with full power...oh wait, but he does NOT want to kill him:
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7869/ddnamor41da.gif

Hence, he's holding back on that fight too.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No. Adamantium skeleton probably supports him, and he has healing factor.

But you can't change the fact that Namor's punch did as much damage (Okay, probably less) then Spider-Man's or Daredevil's punches against Wolverine.

He holds back.

Originally posted by Shinkuu
Daredevil doing anyhting to Wolverine can be chalked up to Mark Millar being brain dead. And who cares if Namor was holding back or not. Wolverine has survived hundreds of shots from class 85 and up in instances where they were specifically stated to not be holding back. Hulk is not well known for holding back. He's hit Wolverine a lot. Wolverine can take a hit. Get over it.

Namor is way above Class 85. Are there really people who don't know it yet?

He can take a hit, yes, but not if he is overloaded with them.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Namor is way above Class 85. Are there really people who don't know it yet?

He can take a hit, yes, but not if he is overloaded with them.

Cant believe people still ***** that Wolverine can take a hit from Hulk level strength.

I haven't seen this much whining since I stole my 3 year old sister's playdough.
WAH!!

Originally posted by riceroost
He said 85 and UP. And out of water I do believe Namor is around 85-90.

❌
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/9749/namorfeat19rb.gif
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/9749/namorfeat19rb.gif
http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/7325/namorfeat393lr.gif
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2738/namorvsarmy9og.gif
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9995/namorfeat255ii.gif

If he isn't dehydrated, he's as strong as he is on water.

no I'm not getting into this again.. whatever bias there is for either of us and whatever rationalities exist

namor struggling to pick up something a percentage of his lifting strength.. or making a sound like I would a baseball bat.. since it's more akin to that than a pencil... it's also more akward than a pencil....

as for namor not being the aggressor in the first fight.. I don't know if you noticed but he was getting jumped...

now.. come what may, without bias the fact still remains.. whatever rationalities you've made up in your head as to namor holding back on wolverine... went flying out the window the moment he picked up a weapon to fight wolverine...

Originally posted by jinzin

namor struggling to pick up something a percentage of his lifting strength.. or making a sound like I would a baseball bat.. since it's more akin to that than a pencil... it's also more akward than a pencil....

now.. come what may, without bias the fact still remains.. whatever rationalities you've made up in your head as to namor holding back on wolverine... went flying out the window the moment he picked up a weapon to fight wolverine...

LOL yeah right on both accounts, if the girder weighs 1 ton and Namor can carry 85 tons it would practically be a toothpick.

Does it or does it show Namor doesn't want claws near him and was using a weapon to keep distance.................lol anyway.

Originally posted by Soleran
LOL yeah right on both accounts, if the girder weighs 1 ton and Namor can carry 85 tons it would practically be a toothpick.

Does it or does it show Namor doesn't want claws near him and was using a weapon to keep distance.................lol anyway.

so you've never picked up any awkward boxes that weren't heavy? 🤨

and he wasn't struggling on either account.. that's entirely speculation based on one inditinguishable noise and it can't be proven either way... when namor started swing he wasn't having issues on either occasion so.... i fail to see how he "struggled" but that's just me...

if that's the case that fairs even worse for pro-namor arguments... he's afraind of getting into h2h with wolverine so he needs a weapon to fight him instead?

maybe.. i mean when he DID try h2h he got cut on one occassion.. when he tried it a second time he got gutted..

Originally posted by jinzin
if that's the case that fairs even worse for pro-namor arguments... he's afraind of getting into h2h with wolverine so he needs a weapon to fight him instead?

Why not Wolverine uses weapons damn near every fight he's in, I fail to see your logic there.

If it were just H2H Wolverine would get his arse wipped ALOT because he couldn't be lethal without a sword, claws something.

Originally posted by Soleran
Why not Wolverine uses weapons damn near every fight he's in, I fail to see your logic there.

If it were just H2H Wolverine would get his arse wipped ALOT because he couldn't be lethal without a sword, claws something.

my point is that namor had to use a weapon he doesn't usually carry.. 🙄

wolverine's claws are a part of the character.. if he wins with claws it's not really a plot device but if namor rips a tree out of the ground and starts swinging it is...

(and yeah you could argue that namors strength is an asset.. my point is that wolverine ALWAYS has his claws unless otherwise stipulated... namor doesn't always have a tree or girders on the other hand....

if this fight were to take place out in the middle of bumb**** nowhere and there weren't any trees to pick up etc etc.. then what would happen?

look I don't have a problem admitting that namor beats logan, I've already done that... he's a great fighter, smart, a strategist, he's got speed and power and skill.... among flight and a handful of other powers... he certainly outclasses logan... my problem is that i don't think he can take wolvie in a straight up h2h (wolvie with claws obviously)...and i don't think he was holding back because there's evidence contradicting that theory..

The Midnighter automatically analyses every situation he is in as a combat scenario, his computerised senses instantaneously checking out multiple battle strategies until he has located the best one to win the fight at minimal effort.
enhanced sense, such as x-ray and thermal vision, super-strength and reflexes. Cybernetic augmentation allows him to calculate over a million possible combat scenarios in a second. Super-enhanced immune system.

To aid him in the actual fight he has heightened reflexes and strength, and a superb knowledge of most forms of combat.

In addition Midnighter has superhuman durability, and is designed with a number of redundant systems (it was recently revealed that he even has a "back-up heart"😉.