Solid Snake VS Nightwing · Comic Book 'Versus' Forum

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
*sigh*
I have no idea why you can't grasp this concept. I mean it isn't incredibly intricate of complicated.

Or maybe I have and you haven't grasped mine?

Why is it when I don't agree I can't understand?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
How do we know Flash is faster then Nightwing, Cresh? Because he has on several occasions moved at multiples of c.

And?

Nightwing could do that too. I mean they both have speed right?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Flash isn't faster then Nightwing because he has been labeled with having superhuman speed, he is faster because he has proved he is faster every appearance he has.

He's been labeld as superhuman speed because he is superhuman speed?

Gee, how about that the label means something.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Now why is Gray Fox faster? Not because he has shown to be faster. No he is apparently faster because he has the label of superhuman, while Nightwing is labeled peak human.

The companies know something we don't, that's fine.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
... you aren't doing a very good job.

You only say that because you don't like what you hear, if ou did like what you heard you'd be saying I was doing a good job.

Know how I know? Cause you said I normally do a good job, the only difference is that you're my opponent right now and not a mutual opponent.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Maybe, maybe Gray Fox has higher capabilities then what he has shown but who gets to decided what they are capable of Cresh?

The company. Doi.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Is it you?

No, it's the company.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You might has well site fan-fiction as proof Cresh because it is just as credible./quote] Yeah, since people discard what the companies say and go off of what they want.
But it is just as constructive as fanfiction.
[QUOTE=6567131]Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has never done any of thosequote] Striking before something hits the ground? Sure he has.
Striking something and it stays together? why not? He's done that.
Moving so fast somthing that doesn't normally combust, combusts?
Yeah, about that... you see with the way physics is there has to be something to allow his sowrd to combust in the first place and then to stay combusted... other wise it would be impossible to happen... in which case I fall back on the unknown, something that we don't know about allowed it to happen. like how in Kenshin the swords that caught fire were designed to.
Same premise. No reason Why wolverine couldn't get a combust sword to combust right?
[QUOTE=6567131]Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and neither has Spider-man. They are ridiculous speed feats.

Only if you don't anylize them like I just did.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They aren't better because they are cooler, they are better because in terms of speed they are faster.

not really. Cooler cause you haven't examined them.

Once you do they're not really all that.

DarkCrawler KABOOOOM!!

Originally posted by Creshosk
YEah and people can dodge bullets, but that doesn't mean they are as fast as bullets, just fast enough to dodge the aim most people through predictions they make themselves. As would be the case with Cap. beign able to predict where it's going to be and then getting out of it's way to dodge, or into its way to catch

Wait...what did that have anything to do with Cap throwing his shield with multiple Mach speeds to catch a ICBM missile?

Originally posted by Creshosk
How do you know that they don't? they both have dictionarires right?
Even if one is Japanese(who most of the time have normal human characters doing outragous things anyway) and the other American.
Can you verifyu that they have different definitions? Or shall we go with definitions readily available to us?

So, both companies have used dictionaries to define peak human...?

Originally posted by Creshosk
I mean Superman is a great example of having the power even if he doesn't use it... super friction... he has eye beams and he uses super friction? so when he's using the super friction he doesn't have the eye beams? or when he uses the eye beams he can't move at super speeds to create friction?

But Superman has still showed that he has the power...Grey Fox hasn't showed better dodging feats then Nightwing has...

srankmissingnin VP of Comic Knowledge

I guess I missed the memo where Konami said

"Attention fans we just wanted to let you know that during that cut scene where Gray Fox is dodging bullets and deflecting bullets he was holding back! He is really able to go much faster. We would just like to clearify that Frank is indeed faster then Nightwing" 🙄

And do you know how fast you need to be moving your arms for air friction cause things to start on fire? Faster then Spider-man is capable of.

Ritoshi Senior Member

Moving arms. You guys alreday said Fox can move his arms faster by deflected all thsoe bullets with his katana so how come its ok for snake eyes.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Wait...what did that have anything to do with Cap throwing his shield with multiple Mach speeds to catch a ICBM missile?

So you have to move a bullet speeds to dodge bullets?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So, both companies have used dictionaries to define peak human...?

So neither company has a dictionary to define "peak" or human"?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But Superman has still showed that he has the power...Grey Fox hasn't showed better dodging feats then Nightwing has...

But you're STILL arguing the power doesn't exist until it's needed.

The company says he has the power. You're saying he doesn't.

Sorry, I tend to listen to the company over fanboys, especailly on unshown stuff like this. it would be different if the company said he moves at a snails pace and he dodges bullets. as opposed to the company saying he has abilities not completely used.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I guess I missed the memo where Konami said
"Attention fans we just wanted to let you know that during that cut scene where Gray Fox is dodging bullets and deflecting bullets he was holding back! He is really able to go much faster. We would just like to clearify that Frank is indeed faster then Nightwing" 🙄

Oh look a strawman argument where he says that Konami came right out and said during a specific time he was holding back.

By your argument where it has to be stated, unless a character thinks or says they're holding back, they're not?

In which case Spiderman and superman and other meek characters aren't holding back? because it doesn't say that they're holding back.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And do you know how fast you need to be moving your arms for air friction cause things to start on fire? Faster then Spider-man is capable of.

Do you like... know anything about physics?

Obviously not. How fast does something need to move to catch fire?

Go look up how much energy needs to be prduced by the friction.

But hey, I suppose if I strike this piece of wood it'll catch fire just as eaily as if I strike this peice of wood designed to catch fire(a match)?

And hey lets look at metal and fire. How hot does metal have to be to ignite? How hot does it have to be to stay lit?

Did you know that it has to be in a molten form first? and then only certain metals will ignite? the carbon in carbon steel for example.

But hey that sword didn't melt... conclusion? It wasbn't just speed, it was designed to ignite.

And you don't think Wolvie or spidey could get a sword desgined to ignite.. to ignite?

srankmissingnin VP of Comic Knowledge

Originally posted by Creshosk
Do you like... know anything about physics?
Obviously not. How fast does something need to move to catch fire?
Go look up how much energy needs to be prduced by the friction.
But hey, I suppose if I strike this piece of wood it'll catch fire just as eaily as if I strike this peice of wood designed to catch fire(a match)?
And hey lets look at metal and fire. How hot does metal have to be to ignite? How hot does it have to be to stay lit?
Did you know that it has to be in a molten form first? and then only certain metals will ignite? the carbon in carbon steel for example.
But hey that sword didn't melt... conclusion? It wasbn't just speed, it was designed to ignite.
And you don't think Wolvie or spidey could get a sword desgined to ignite.. to ignite?

Or you know maybe it happened in a comic book? You know comic books where physics don't matter and character's move at multiple of c and Hulk's pant survive nukes?

srankmissingnin VP of Comic Knowledge

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh look a strawman argument where he says that Konami came right out and said during a specific time he was holding back.
By your argument where it has to be stated, unless a character thinks or says they're holding back, they're not?
In which case Spiderman and superman and other meek characters aren't holding back? because it doesn't say that they're holding back.

... So what are you basing that he was holding back on what exactly? Is your arguement he was holding back that he is said to have superhuman speed but that feat was something that characters like Nightwing could easily match? 'Cause thats not proof he was holding back, its proof that MGS peakhuma and DC peakhuman aren't equal.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Or you know maybe it happened in a comic book? You know comic books where physics don't matter and character's move at multiple of c and Hulk's pant survive nukes?

So unable to counter you resort to the copout.

So instead of an answer I sahall give you:

Grey fox is faster because the companies say hes faster because common sense dictates that Enhanced peak humans are faster than peak humans because of the word "enhanced"

So yeah, he's faster cause the companies say he is. 🙂 Nice and copoutish don't you think?

He is because they say so.

💃 💃 💃

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
... So what are you basing that he was holding back on what exactly? Is your arguement he was holding back that he is said to have superhuman speed but that feat was something that characters like Nightwing could easily match? 'Cause thats not proof he was holding back, its proof that MGS peakhuma and DC peakhuman aren't equal.

Prove that he was pushing himself as hard as he could. That will be your answer.

Until you can do that we have to assume that the words and meanings are equal. Since you have no basis to say that they aren't.

Sam Z Restricted

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
It is when they have comparable feats...

Deardevil has comparable to Spider-man's feats still Spidey's speed >>> DD's speed

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I don't think it either...but we don't know how many he did shot before opening fire.
[/B]

I highly doubt he shot more than 5 out of 30 before they opened fire. It's imposible even for Snake.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But when he has done the same with machine gun fire?[/B]

And when did NW dodged machinegun without moving or jumping? Whenever he dodges machineguns he runs or jumps, so does Snake like in cutscene with Raven.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So you believe that Liquid didn't jump from the copter before the explosion? How did his parachute survive it, then? [/B]

Helicopter started falling after it exploded. And I was also talking about fight with Rex.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
We all know that Big Boss was hesitating to kill Boss. Thats emphasized during the entire game...
And seeing as Deathstroke couldn't really hit Nightwing while he was saving someone with his back turned, I doubt that he would have any trouble dodging anything while going directly at his opponent...
http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year2003dodgesbulletsfromdeath.gif[/B]

Snake was armed with tranqualizer gun at that moment so there is no point of saying that he was affraid to kill The Boss.
Actually he would have problems. If NW ran directly at deathstroke he would've been dead by now.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
You have hard time proving that...I have seen them use CQC against...umm, dozen people in total? While Batman has beaten more impressive and skilled enemies with his style.
[/B]

What enemy could be much more impressive than Fox, but don't tell me it is Superman coz whenever Bats fights him it's PIS. Bats technique failed him even in fight with Bane.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Name some that can be comparable to most impressive Nightwing situations...because I really can't remember any...for example, lets take this feat:
http://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999dodgesbulletsfromentir.gif
When Snake did something comparable? [/B]

Actually i don't find it impressive, he uses a little acrobatic here but mostly falling speed. And those soldiers fire like amatures. And if you just want feat of Snake dodging machineguns then how about Raven or Rex.

srankmissingnin VP of Comic Knowledge

Originally posted by Creshosk
Prove that he was pushing himself as hard as he could. That will be your answer.
Until you can do that we have to assume that the words and meanings are equal. Since you have no basis to say that they aren't.

Why do we need to assume such? The feats suggest other wise but we have to throw Gray Fox a bone because his company says that he is superhuman. Your argument isn't that Gray Fox is faster it's that MGS and DC's ideas of peak human are the same and by default Gray Fox is faster. How did you come to this conclusion? It seems like a rather large leap of faith to take to blindly say that Gray Fox most be capable of more because what he was shown able to do Nightwing. Which is my argument about labels. You can't base your entire argument on a label a company placed on their character, you need something more tangible.

Ritoshi Senior Member

Like Sam Z said at one point Ninja was standing and dodghing teh machine gun fire from rex without moving his feat he was in one spot

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Why do we need to assume such?

because 1=1... and 2=2 and peak means peak, human means human...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The feats suggest other wise but we have to throw Gray Fox a bone because his company says that he is superhuman.

prove that that was the most he could do.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Your argument isn't that Gray Fox is faster it's that MGS and DC's ideas of peak human are the same and by default Gray Fox is faster.

and assuming that things are equal is the sign of a fanboy?

Out ****ing rageous.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
How did you come to this conclusion?

Common sense? Logic maybe?

1=1=True

if the equation is balanced on both sides of the sign it must be true

peak=peak Right?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It seems like a rather large leap of faith to take to blindly say that Gray Fox most be capable of more because what he was shown able to do Nightwing.

because common sense is such a leap of faith.

And taking the word of a company over some embittered fanboy is such a leap of faith as well.

Logic and beleiveing the creators of a character be damned we have to listen to the DC fanboys because . . because... damnit if I gave you a because you'd be relying on logic and resoning again. We don't do that here. DC doesn't look as good if we do.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Which is my argument about labels.

which leads us to the label less Nigthwing has speed, Flash has speed.

both have speed! They must be just as fast.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You can't base your entire argument on a label a company placed on their character,

So I can't listen to what the company says about their own characters eh spiderfa- oops 😈

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
you need something more tangible.

Like "Oh that looks like something I think this character can do!"

srankmissingnin VP of Comic Knowledge

Originally posted by Creshosk
prove that that was the most he could do.
because common sense is such a leap of faith.
And taking the word of a company over some embittered fanboy is such a leap of faith as well.
Logic and beleiveing the creators of a character be damned we have to listen to the DC fanboys because . . because... damnit if I gave you a because you'd be relying on logic and resoning again. We don't do that here. DC doesn't look as good if we do.
Like "Oh that looks like something I think this character can do!"

Konami says Gray Fox is superhuman...

DC says Nightwing is peakhuman...

So Gray Fox is faster...

It is a shallow argument with nothing to back it up. Peak Humans in Marvel and DC (Cap and Batman physically) is almost too different to draw a parallel and the mediums are much more similar then DC and Konami.

Peakhuman is a variable and its value changes from company to company and medium to medium. If peakhuman = 5 in DC that doesn't mean it equals 5 in marvel.

Ritoshi Senior Member

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
.

Can nightwing Dodge machine gun fire standing in one spot without moving his feet ?

DarkCrawler KABOOOOM!!

Originally posted by Sam Z
Deardevil has comparable to Spider-man's feats still Spidey's speed >>> DD's speed

Except that Spider-Man has dodging feats superior to Daredevil. Fox doesn't have superior to Nightwing.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I highly doubt he shot more than 5 out of 30 before they opened fire. It's imposible even for Snake.

But you can't be sure, because we never saw what happened.

Originally posted by Sam Z
And when did NW dodged machinegun without moving or jumping? Whenever he dodges machineguns he runs or jumps, so does Snake like in cutscene with Raven.

But Nightwing dodges the bullets itself, not just the gun. Snake was simply running in circles faster then Vulcan could move his gun.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Helicopter started falling after it exploded. And I was also talking about fight with Rex.

So it showed him jumping away after the explosion?

And what did he do in the fight with the Rex?

Originally posted by Sam Z
Snake was armed with tranqualizer gun at that moment so there is no point of saying that he was affraid to kill The Boss.

But he was still hesitating to hurt her.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Actually he would have problems. If NW ran directly at deathstroke he would've been dead by now.

How do you know that?

Originally posted by Sam Z
What enemy could be much more impressive than Fox, but don't tell me it is Superman coz whenever Bats fights him it's PIS. Bats technique failed him even in fight with Bane.

If we consider all their showings, Batman has better ones. And when he fought against Bane, he was weakened anyway, so that doesn't count.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Actually i don't find it impressive, he uses a little acrobatic here but mostly falling speed. And those soldiers fire like amatures. And if you just want feat of Snake dodging machineguns then how about Raven or Rex.

They are SWAT teams, they are not amateurs. And if he would just fall in one direction, he could not dodge them. He uses his acrobatics to dodge all those bullets.

Again, what has Snake done that is even comparable to that? Because that isn't even the best Nightwing feat...

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Konami says Gray Fox is superhuman...
DC says Nightwing is peakhuman...
So Gray Fox is faster...
It is a shallow argument with nothing to back it up.

You mean other than logic?
Oh yeah peak humans are faster than superhumans wait when'd he get superhuman status? -_-;;

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
[B]Peak Humans in Marvel and DC (Cap and Batman physically) is almost too different to draw a parallel and the mediums are much more similar then DC and Konami.

And?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Peakhuman is a variable and its value changes from company to company and medium to medium. If peakhuman = 5 in DC that doesn't mean it equals 5 in marvel.

because obviously the companies have different definitions of the word "peak"... 😕

Care to prove that?

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Except that Spider-Man has dodging feats superior to Daredevil.

Like doding a bullet after it was fired and intercepting a bullet fired at Spiderman?

Oh wait you said Spiderman had... oops my bad. those were DD feats of speed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Fox doesn't have superior to Nightwing.

In your opinion. 🙂

When did nightwing parry machine gune fire with a sword?

But you can't be sure, because we never saw what happened.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
But Nightwing dodges the bullets itself, not just the gun.

So hes as fast as a speeding bullet? When did he dodge a bullet after it was fired?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Snake was simply running in circles faster then Vulcan could move his gun.

And fox was standing in place dodging the bullets, nto running or falling, hwll fox even blocked a bunch of bullets with a sword.

What sad is that its still not proven if the MGS feats are indeed the most they could do.

Creshosk Senior Member

😕

Spiderman(enhanced human) > Batman (peak human)
Nightwing(Peak human) > Grey Fox (Enhanced peak human)

Now how does that work? 😑🤨 🤪