The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

I don't think he was going out of his way to kill non-humans.

As that would essentially involve destroying every planet in the galaxy, and cutting off like 99% of your work force. 😐

Obvs he had no qualms about doing so. But, there's a difference between, like, "you're a good for nothing non human and you're in my way, so plz die", and "you're a non human, I must kill you so that I can sleep at night".

As for the scene in Allegiance, I could have sworn there were extenuating circumstances behind that. Weren't they looking for rebels or something?

The death of the Empire cleared the way for every future catasophre, including the Imperial Civil War, Yuuzhan Vong Invasion, Dark Nest, Second Galactic Civil War, and the Sith-Imperial War---all told, hundreds of trillions dead. But automatically siding with the Empire as the "preferable choice" is like looking at Earth history and saying that fighting WWI cleared the way for the sequel, Holocaust, Iron Curtain, Cold War etc. How the f*ck are you supposed to know?

Anyway, as far as I can recall, the Alliance never actually used "terrifying activities" for the purpose of spreading terror (which itself would have been intended to further their goals). That seemed to be something the Empire, thanks to the Tarkin Doctrine especially, specialized in. If we're to judge them based on our own experiences, then the Alliance is the underdog version of NATO and the West waging a war against a world-wide Islamist empire that routinely massacres non-Muslims and nukes defenseless countries simply to "send a message".

The Rebels were unequivocally the good guys of the mythos, and they stood on the moral high ground. Civilian casualties are a shameful waste, but eventually you have to see it as "little evil, greater... far greater good".

And to hell with that esoteric foresight crap about the Vong.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I don't think he was going out of his way to kill non-humans.

As that would essentially involve destroying every planet in the galaxy, and cutting off like 99% of your work force. 😐

Obvs he had no qualms about doing so. But, there's a difference between, like, "you're a good for nothing non human and you're in my way, so plz die", and "you're a non human, I must kill you so that I can sleep at night".

As for the scene in Allegiance, I could have sworn there were extenuating circumstances behind that. Weren't they looking for rebels or something?

IIRC they created a virus that would wipe out most of the non-humans in the galaxy. Isard tried to unleash it Post-Endor. (Though they also created a virus that only killed humans. The empire was crazy like that.)

Other than that non-humans were second-class citizens and non-human slavery was legalised.

They were supposedly looking for 'rebel-sympathisers', but they were pretty much just rounding up aliens and shooting them. Of course all this is iirc.

SM
Fair enough. I personally prefer Obi as is, but if you can swing it as a storyteller, I'll be very impressed.

I'll certainly be trying, though I don't plan on bending much of Obi-Wan's personality beyond increasing his patience and understanding of Anakin. I feel that preserving the original intent of Obi-Wan, a former maverick among Jedi, one who challenged the ancient precepts of the institution before becoming Lawful Good or whatever, would help strengthen the bond between teacher and pupil. Thematically, it would show that Obi-Wan is somewhat prepared for Anakin's intractable ways, that there is a shot that Anakin might pull out of this rebel streak all right, that he's not doomed from the beginning.

It'll add another dimension of Obi-Wan beyond the mere knight in shining armor we're led to believe he always was. I'm going to emphasize the experience and occasionally Machiavellian side to the wily Jedi.

SM
The institution is notorious for its corruption though. EU especially concentrates on it, but even Padme and Anakin discuss how the Senate is inefficient and morally bankrupt.

My countless enlightening chats with Lucius have really matured my perception of stories. For example, what we know of Senate corruption in the films falls squarely under a rather notorious trope indicative of low quality writing. We know that the Senate is corrupt because we are told it is, but we don't see it much beyond Palpatine.

This is lazy and ultimately damaging in that it places far too much blame/credit for the Republic's downfall squarely on Palpatine's shoulders. The reality of it is that while Palpatine is clearly an astute behaviorist and beneficiary of a genius-level intellect, he hasn't the time to induce corruption ex nihilo on that magnitude. It's important that we see that the Senate is flawed and imperfect; that the Separatists' concerns are legitimate so that we do not operate under the delusion that one side is "good" and the other is "evil", which is a mentality the films and most of the CW3D show propagate.

In fact, consider the immortal line in the ROTS opening crawl: "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere." This, coupled with the recent CW3D episodes introducing the audience to legitimately sympathetic and thoroughly well-intentioned Separatists, leads me to believe that George didn't want us to believe CIS = bad, Republic = good.

As far as I'm concerned (and my views are echoed by Dave Filoni), there is only one true evil in the universe at this time and that is Palpatine. All the rest are capable of evil, brutal acts, but there is noble intent or a greater good behind it. Palpatine, on the other hand, is an unrepentant narcissist and psychopath concerned only for himself.

So, the long and short of it is that I feel we must see as many flaws in the Senate as we do the Separatists.

Ares
Hmmm... Maybe I was wrong but didn't he intend to spread his Dark Empire across the entire galaxy?

He did, see The Dark Empire Sourcebook. Or, better yet, see this.

Nephthys
And kill non-humans.

This has been retconned by the prequels and, more specifically, "Aliens in the Empire" by Abel G. Pena, which confirms that Palpatine saw everyone has pawns and had no particular personal disdain for nonhumans. That's an old Zahn-inspired holdout that has no basis in current canon.

DE, did you get Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout Tactics? Cause the former two there are worth the struggles.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not sure how the Rebels can be considered a terrorist organization.

Taken to extremes, one could make a case that they were, as a terrorist is simply one who uses violence or the threat of violence to coerce or intimidate largely for political reasons.

Has anyone noticed that Slash hasn't been seen since page 973?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
This has been retconned by the prequels and, more specifically, "Aliens in the Empire" by Abel G. Pena, which confirms that Palpatine saw everyone has pawns and had no particular personal disdain for nonhumans. That's an old Zahn-inspired holdout that has no basis in current canon.

Indeed, I don't believe that Palpatine personally had much of anything against aliens. Maul was his first apprentice and Thrawn his best general. However that does not mean that his Empire was not extremely humancentric and racist. If all those source state is that Palpatine wasn't especially racist then that still doesn't change much imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys

drylaughdrylaughdrylaughdrylaughdrylaugh

I love Andrew Hussie.

jawdrop

Just for reference that 'puppet' is both omnipotent and omniscient.

But Andrews the ****ing Author and no smug bastard'll hijack his story goddammit!

Man, that last battlezone post look f-ing forever.

Um, overkill much?

There was a lot I had to address with Quanchi's opening post and rebuttal.

I would like to say that at the moment I'm winning, lol, but it's hard to say. Voldemort's magical arsenal brings a lot of prexisting bias to those deciding the victor, and Quanchi explained those powers well.

really page 973 isn't that long ago... I mean, in the grand scheme of things.. how long ago was mattatom...

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-sequels-made-by-people-who-must-not-have-seen-original/

Okay, the back cover of Ascension says this:

"How long can the Jedi remain in power? How far will the Sith go to rule supreme? What chance do both stand against Abeloth?"

How terrible is that? The Jedi aren't in power, the Sith will obviously do whatever it takes.... What a stupid backcover....

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I'll certainly be trying, though I don't plan on bending much of Obi-Wan's personality beyond increasing his patience and understanding of Anakin. I feel that preserving the original intent of Obi-Wan, a former maverick among Jedi, one who challenged the ancient precepts of the institution before becoming Lawful Good or whatever, would help strengthen the bond between teacher and pupil. Thematically, it would show that Obi-Wan is somewhat prepared for Anakin's intractable ways, that there is a shot that Anakin might pull out of this rebel streak all right, that he's not doomed from the beginning.

It'll add another dimension of Obi-Wan beyond the mere knight in shining armor we're led to believe he always was. I'm going to emphasize the experience and occasionally Machiavellian side to the wily Jedi.

Fair enough.

My countless enlightening chats with Lucius have really matured my perception of stories. For example, what we know of Senate corruption in the films falls squarely under a rather notorious trope indicative of low quality writing. We know that the Senate is corrupt because we are told it is, but we don't see it much beyond Palpatine.

I've read EU material, specifically Clone Wars era novels, which indicate clearly that the Senate routinely bombards planets with pointless, oftentimes alienating regulations, that senators are split between the majority who are self-serving and often bought by large commercial guilds,etc. and a few noble souls who are ineffectual (Antilles, Ryyder, Valorum). While they're not bordering on say, a Facist regime, the obvious parallels to modern US representative government is apparent.

This isn't about Senate = evil. It's a flawed device which needs to be destroyed so that order can be achieved. But corruption is apparent, both implicitly and explicitly. This apparent corruption is pushing two groups towards succession - smaller worlds who feel alienated or mistreated (especially Outer Rim, it's indicated that Core worlds get preferrential treatment), and greedy entities like the Commerce Guild, TechnoUnion, etc., who seek to make even greater profits by removing the governing body which current taxes and regulates their trade.

My point is, demonizing Valorum minimizes the impact that Palpatine's dictatorship changed things in a morally ambiguous manner. Specifically, he eliminated the divided, useless Senate, but he is an evil leader and his ultimate methods, though temporarily beneficial, are in question.

The moral of the story is that need for change can oftentimes lead to the wrong person taking charge. See Hitler, Napoleon, Caesar, etc.

This is lazy and ultimately damaging in that it places far too much blame/credit for the Republic's downfall squarely on Palpatine's shoulders. The reality of it is that while Palpatine is clearly an astute behaviorist and beneficiary of a genius-level intellect, he hasn't the time to induce corruption ex nihilo on that magnitude. It's important that we see that the Senate is flawed and imperfect; that the Separatists' concerns are legitimate so that we do not operate under the delusion that one side is "good" and the other is "evil", which is a mentality the films and most of the CW3D show propagate.

In fact, consider the immortal line in the ROTS opening crawl: "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere." This, coupled with the recent CW3D episodes introducing the audience to legitimately sympathetic and thoroughly well-intentioned Separatists, leads me to believe that George didn't want us to believe CIS = bad, Republic = good.

Again, agreed. The Separatists are not all bad. Their leaders certainly are, and the movement is being exploited by the Sith, but member planets are not entirely to blame. Change did need to happen, but war and reliance on Chancellor Palpatine was a fatal mistake.

As far as I'm concerned (and my views are echoed by Dave Filoni), there is only one true evil in the universe at this time and that is Palpatine. All the rest are capable of evil, brutal acts, but there is noble intent or a greater good behind it. Palpatine, on the other hand, is an unrepentant narcissist and psychopath concerned only for himself.

So, the long and short of it is that I feel we must see as many flaws in the Senate as we do the Separatists.

Again, agreed in general. My point is that demonizing Valorum takes away from the tragedy of his mis-alignment and fall, and removes culpability of the Senate as being flawed that drove events right into Palpatine's lap.

BobaXAshoka... PICTURE IT BITCHES!

Originally posted by truejedi
Okay, the back cover of Ascension says this:

"How long can the Jedi remain in power? How far will the Sith go to rule supreme? What chance do both stand against Abeloth?"

How terrible is that? The Jedi aren't in power, the Sith will obviously do whatever it takes.... What a stupid backcover....