The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is Gideon's redone prequels. As he's said earlier he's changed the personalities a bit. Obi-Wan is more of rebel (as he hinted at when he spoke to Yoda in the OT) who's gottten over it. Valorum is meant to be more of a dick so that we can actually see where the Seperatists are coming from when they talk about the corruption in the Republic, as Valorum is very obviously a bastard.

Ah. Personally, I found Obi-Wan's personality as is to be just fine. Hence, why he's my favorite Jedi besides Qui-Gon in all of SW.

As for Valorum, I also found his original depiction to be more tragic since he was ultimately accused of what he was fighting against. The Secessionist alliance actually did have a great reason for wanting change, but that was because of an overbloated Senate, corruption on both sides, and the chokehold conglomerates had on society's rules. It was definitely reflective of the U.S.' apparent flaws: representative body which serves its own interests, takes forever to accomplish very little, rife with corruption, guided more by lobbyists for interested commercial parties rather than by the common good. What made this such a compelling background is that ultimately only war could have solved the problems, and Palpatine/Sidious was an unlikely savior.

Interesting thread over in the PT section. Were the Rebel Alliance terrorists? I don't think so. I mean they didn't exactly promote 'terror'. Thats what their opponents did.

Well, Impediment is going to respond soon. It has been a good discussion so far.

Now I must return back to Voldemort vs. Yoda. I have a lot to respond to...

good point I just saw about Avatar:

1. There is absolutely NO reason for the avatars to even exist. the locals knew about them from the start, so they couldn't be used to infilitrate anything. So really, to study them, humans would have saved unimaginable dollars simply sending out an interpreter in an oxygen mask...

(as the commenter put it, sending an avatar to communicate with the locals is the same as sending a cowboy in facepaint and buckskins to the indians... it's just one big **** YOU.) : )

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ah. Personally, I found Obi-Wan's personality as is to be just fine. Hence, why he's my favorite Jedi besides Qui-Gon in all of SW.

Obi-Wan's personality is consistent with what we saw in the OT; his background isn't. He made it explicitly clear that he was something of a rebel, which Lucas apparently abandoned in the prequels. This was included to enhance continuity and, hopefully, the plot, since it would give Anakin and Obi-Wan much needed common ground.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As for Valorum, I also found his original depiction to be more tragic since he was ultimately accused of what he was fighting against. The Secessionist alliance actually did have a great reason for wanting change, but that was because of an overbloated Senate, corruption on both sides, and the chokehold conglomerates had on society's rules. It was definitely reflective of the U.S.' apparent flaws: representative body which serves its own interests, takes forever to accomplish very little, rife with corruption, guided more by lobbyists for interested commercial parties rather than by the common good. What made this such a compelling background is that ultimately only war could have solved the problems, and Palpatine/Sidious was an unlikely savior.

The problem is that we don't actually see corruption in the Senate beyond Palpatine himself.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Obi-Wan's personality is consistent with what we saw in the OT; his background isn't. He made it explicitly clear that he was something of a rebel, which Lucas apparently abandoned in the prequels. This was included to enhance continuity and, hopefully, the plot, since it would give Anakin and Obi-Wan much needed common ground.

Not only does Lucas abandon it but he completely reverses it. Obi-Wan is a whiney stick in the mud who quotes dogma. Reckless my ass.

Originally posted by truejedi
good point I just saw about Avatar:

1. There is absolutely NO reason for the avatars to even exist. the locals knew about them from the start, so they couldn't be used to infilitrate anything. So really, to study them, humans would have saved unimaginable dollars simply sending out an interpreter in an oxygen mask...

(as the commenter put it, sending an avatar to communicate with the locals is the same as sending a cowboy in facepaint and buckskins to the indians... it's just one big **** YOU.) : )

Huh, I never noticed that. That is a good point. Wait, they knew he was infiltrating them from the start? (Or at least that he comes from the humans?)

yeah, they definitly knew about the avatar program from the start, at least by the time Jake enters the story. Remember that the woman running the program was a revered human to them that was learning their culture.

I think the point was that the Na'vi would take more kindly to something that they were more familiar with, at least superficially.

And as demonstrated throughout the film, humans on foot fare poorly on Pandora. The obvious difficulties posed by the atmospheric conditions aside, physiologically they are tremendously ill-prepared for the challenges posed by Pandoran fauna - and flora, really: the hometree is really big - and I sincerely doubt the Na'vi would take kindly to the use of any ordnance on wildlife.

Too Big To Fail was a pretty good movie, except for the shamelessly inaccurate portrayal of Bernanke and Paulson.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Interesting thread over in the PT section. Were the Rebel Alliance terrorists? I don't think so. I mean they didn't exactly promote 'terror'. Thats what their opponents did.

You could argue that the Rebels were terrorists. This doesn't mean that they're inherently evil, because they are campaigning against what is clearly an Empire that runs without regard for sentient rights and peace/prosperity.

yeah, they definitly knew about the avatar program from the start, at least by the time Jake enters the story. Remember that the woman running the program was a revered human to them that was learning their culture.

The best way to build a positive relationship with a new culture is to emulate it in an attempt to understand it. Speaking a culture's language in particular is a great step forward, and attempting to experience life as a Nav'i is even moreso impressive.

Obi-Wan's personality is consistent with what we saw in the OT; his background isn't. He made it explicitly clear that he was something of a rebel, which Lucas apparently abandoned in the prequels. This was included to enhance continuity and, hopefully, the plot, since it would give Anakin and Obi-Wan much needed common ground.

Fair enough. I personally prefer Obi as is, but if you can swing it as a storyteller, I'll be very impressed.

The problem is that we don't actually see corruption in the Senate beyond Palpatine himself.

The institution is notorious for its corruption though. EU especially concentrates on it, but even Padme and Anakin discuss how the Senate is inefficient and morally bankrupt.

"Terror" is subjective. For many people, the very thought that there's a highly armed and dangerous society promoting the downfall of the government and replacing it with a new order, would be terrifying.

To some people, the thought isn't that big of a deal, especially if you live on a backwater, out-of-the-way world that no one pays any attention to in the first place.

To others, the ends justify the means--hit-and-run, guerrilla fighting against the established order, and the deaths of some civilian contractors (and likely innocent prisoners) is necessary to achieve what is intended to be a high-minded and righteous goal.

I personally would side with the latter, as the mass killings of innocents already committed by the established order for the explicit purpose of inducing fear and terror, is justification for a numerically smaller amount of (innocent) deaths for the explicit purpose of destroying that terror-spreading order.

But try telling that to the office-working, tax-paying, civilian on some planet in the mid rim that no one really pays any attention to.

The Rebels basically fvcked over the galaxy. They wiped out this massive government and failed to properly replace it. Cue the death of trillions, galactic war multiple times, and the complete collapse of the two systems (New Republic and GA) intended to replace the Empire.

Sans EU, none of that applies. Then its just speculation on what would probably happen once the Empire fell (shitstom, power vacuum, trillions dead.)

"Terror" is subjective. For many people, the very thought that there's a highly armed and dangerous society promoting the downfall of the government and replacing it with a new order, would be terrifying.

But the rebels are not promoting that in anyway. If those idiots think that way then thats just them being idiots.

Also I highly doubt that considering the thousands of planets that flocked to the alliance after the Death Star blew up Alderaan.

Plus the scenes at the end of ROTJ with the galaxy rejoicing at the Empires downfall.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
To some people, the thought isn't that big of a deal, especially if you live on a backwater, out-of-the-way world that no one pays any attention to in the first place.

Actually if Allegiance is anything to go by then if you live on a backwater town you'd be visited by the imperlials anyway as they purge non-humans from your planet.

I've always seen "terrorist" to mean "one who uses terror to achieve a goal". As Lucien noted, causing terror in itself is pretty relative. The intention to use terror as a weapon to achieve a goal, however, is not.

I'm not sure how the Rebels can be considered a terrorist organization. The Rebels attacks were not intended to cause terror, rather it was the Empire's goal to cause terror.

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

People often point to the destruction of the Death Star as a terrorist attack. However, the Death Star is a legitamite military target.

Originally posted by Lucius
The Rebels basically fvcked over the galaxy. They wiped out this massive government and failed to properly replace it. Cue the death of trillions, galactic war multiple times, and the complete collapse of the two systems (New Republic and GA) intended to replace the Empire.

And yet this is far better than what Palpatine intended to do.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I've always seen "terrorist" to mean "one who uses terror to achieve a goal". As Lucien noted, causing terror in itself is pretty relative. The intention to use terror as a weapon to achieve a goal, however, is not.

Exactly!

I am in agreement with the things that ares just contributed, save the judgement on Palpatine's plans.

Hmmm... Maybe I was wrong but didn't he intend to spread his Dark Empire across the entire galaxy?

Man this fvcking Fallout Collection is terrible. After all the shit I went through to even install the games now one of them doesn't recognise the disk as correct. So I need to patch the game twice to even play it.

And its not letting me extract the patch. 😐

Originally posted by ares834
Hmmm... Maybe I was wrong but didn't he intend to spread his Dark Empire across the entire galaxy?

I really do think that a political and strategic genius like Palpatine was smart enough to realize that turning the entire Galaxy against him would end badly for him, even with his military might.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
As far as I know, Palps plan was to basically just rule the Galaxy with an iron fist, make sure there were no Jedi or insurrections, and keep up a military to fend off the Vong. Aside from that, he was perfectly content to just sit on his throne and be immortal.

I really do think that a political and strategic genius like Palpatine was smart enough to realize that turning the entire Galaxy against him would end badly for him, even with his military might.

And kill non-humans.

He didn't seem to care about turning them against him.